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Ray, some folks are saying that they think there should be only one identify for an event, regardless of the role it plays. An analogy would be that we don't give a different identity to a person as author vs. subject, kc On 1/20/16 1:49 PM, Denenberg, Ray wrote: > > "Olympic Games (29th : 2008 : Beijing, China)" is simply a label. > Hypothetically there is a URI for an event resource, which uses that > label. And, hypothetically, there is a URI for an agent resource, > which uses that label. They are different resources; the two URIs are > different. You don’t have to make that choice: is it an agent or is it > an event. > > Ray > > *From:*Bibliographic Framework Transition Initiative Forum > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Tim Thompson > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 20, 2016 4:29 PM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: [BIBFRAME] Events proposal for BIBFRAME 2.0 > > But what do we do about cases like "Olympic Games (29th : 2008 : > Beijing, China)"? Only in an insular, bibliocentric universe (in my > opinion) does it make sense to say that this in an Agent rather than > an Event. But it seems the only current option in BIBFRAME would be to > call it a bf:Meeting. How well is that going to play on the open Web? > > Tim > > > [1] http://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/no2001038783.html > > -- > Tim A. Thompson > Metadata Librarian (Spanish/Portuguese Specialty) > Princeton University Library > > On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 4:10 PM, Denenberg, Ray <[log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: > > Nevermind “publisher”, “ALA 2016” would be the “creator” of the > proceedings, right? > > *From:*Bibliographic Framework Transition Initiative Forum > [mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>] > *On Behalf Of *Gordon, Bruce J. > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 20, 2016 3:49 PM > *To:* [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > *Subject:* Re: [BIBFRAME] Events proposal for BIBFRAME 2.0 > > I don't know about the ALA meeting, but the publisher of the > proceedings of a conference is not the conference but the organization > that holds the conference or some other entity responsible for > publishing. An event isn't an agent and can't publish anything, but > there are fruits of that event that can be published by an agent. > There seem to have been shortcuts taken that end up conflating > meanings perhaps for the sake of expediency or brevity, or the lack of > a better place in which to describe. > > Best, > > -Bruce > > Bruce J. Gordon > > Audio Engineer > > Audio Preservation Services - a shared service of the Harvard Library > > Harvard University > > Cambridge, Massachusetts 02138 > > U.S.A > > tel. +1(617) 495-1241 <tel:%2B1%28617%29%20495-1241> > > fax +1(617) 496-4636 <tel:%2B1%28617%29%20496-4636> > > On Jan 20, 2016, at 3:38 PM, Steven Folsom <[log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: > > Is "ALA Midwinter 2016" a publisher? > > Or is ALA (or some contracted service) the Publisher of the > Proceedings of the ALA Midwinter 2016 Meeting? > > *From: *Bibliographic Framework Transition Initiative Forum > <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> on > behalf of "Trail, Nate" <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > *Reply-To: *Bibliographic Framework Transition Initiative Forum > <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > *Date: *Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 3:31 PM > *To: *"[log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>" <[log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > *Subject: *Re: [BIBFRAME] SV: [BIBFRAME] Events proposal for > BIBFRAME 2.0 > > Meetings as Agent and Meetings as Events: maybe they can be > both, and we’re conflating them because they have the same label? > > “ALA Midwinter 2016” is both a publisher and an event, and > probably should have two uris, one as a madsrdf:Meeting and > one as a bf:Event , each with different properties describing > the different aspects of the same idea. > > Nate > > ----------------------------------------- > > Nate Trail > > Network Development & MARC Standards Office > > LS/ABA/NDMSO > > LA308, Mail Stop 4402 > > Library of Congress > > Washington DC 20540 > > *From:* Bibliographic Framework Transition Initiative Forum > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Steven Folsom > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 20, 2016 3:20 PM > *To:* [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > *Subject:* Re: [BIBFRAME] SV: [BIBFRAME] Events proposal for > BIBFRAME 2.0 > > This has been a really interesting thread to monitor. Some > reactions to various discussions: > > 1.) I think it’s worth clarifying what happens with > subclassing. (I think everyone participating understands this, > but it might help tease out some problematic terms.) If one > class is asserted as a subclass of another, every instance of > the former is always an instance of the latter. E.g. > > If: ex:Meeting rdfs:subclassOf ex:Event . > > Then this statement: <Some Meeting> a ex:Meeting . > > *Always* entails: <Some Meeting> a ex:Event . [Perhaps this is > what was originally meant by hierarchies are “static”? Totally > agree that in RDF something can exist in multiple hierarchies, > but subclasses aren’t for "sometimes situations”.] > > 2.) Regardless of historic practice, I’m not sure I would want > a Meeting to be a subclass of Agent. It’s more fitting for > Meetings be treated as Events that Agents participate in. > > 3.) Because bf:Work and bf:Event are not (to my knowledge) > asserted to be disjoint, there is nothing formal stopping us > for asserting that something is both a bf:Work and bf:Event > when it is the case (e.g. the performances that Tim alluded > to). Depending on the Event and its relationships to other > entities, it may or not BE a Work. It may or may not > generate/depict/be the subject of a Work. What I’m trying to > say is that because there will be so many ways we will want to > refer to bf:Event they shouldn’t be pigeonholed, but there may > be some Event types that we want to treat always as works > (e.g. Performances). > > 4.) The points I made about Works/Events above apply for > Contributions and Provisions and Events. I could see a case > where we want to say the “event” represented as an > AuthorContribution is the subject of a book. Or occasionally > wanting to use schema:Event properties (I believe suggested by > Amanda) to better describe a Contribution. > > 5.) I too, don’t understand what the Content class adds. > > *From: *Bibliographic Framework Transition Initiative Forum > <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > on behalf of Karen Coyle <[log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > *Reply-To: *Bibliographic Framework Transition Initiative > Forum <[log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > *Date: *Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 11:33 AM > *To: *"[log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>" <[log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > *Subject: *Re: [BIBFRAME] SV: [BIBFRAME] Events proposal for > BIBFRAME 2.0 > > On 1/20/16 3:25 AM, Oddrun Ohren wrote: > > Thanks Ray Denenberg for your clarifications! It might > well be that life-cycle events are best kept separate > from events as entities described or captured in works. > > However, I still think that bf:Content (or > bf:EventContent) is unnecessary, and I hope you > BIBFRAME 2.0 developers will come round to the same > way of thinking J. > > (Concerning examples of events modeled as works, I > think Tim Thompson provided several good examples. > Referring to the draft proposal, perhaps the battle > re-enactment event may be considered a work) > > IMHO one should always think long and hard before > solving any need for increased granularity by > subclassing existing classes. Class hierarchies are > static structures, and should express fairly stable > knowledge. Therefore, I am wondering if you plan to do > something about the bf:Work class and its subclassing > into media specific sub-classes in BIBFRAME 2.0? As > far as I can see, none of the Work subclasses has > additional properties (compared to Work), a fact which > in itself rather defeats the purpose of subclassing. A > more flexible solution would be to introduce a > property “type” or similar to Work, and offer a > controlled vocabulary of work types as potential > value set. A work type vocabulary would at any rate be > easier to maintain through changing media types than > would a set of subclasses. Moreover, it will then be > possible to use other type vocabularies in domains > where these are more relevant than the “recommended” one. > > > It so happens that I just did a short blog post on > subclassing Work, albeit related to FRBR but possibly > valid also for BIBFRAME. > http://kcoyle.blogspot.com/2016/01/sub-types-in-frbr.html > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__kcoyle.blogspot.com_2016_01_sub-2Dtypes-2Din-2Dfrbr.html&d=CwMGaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=96Yl7NayWcMu7tyqDmXW25XSKg4bTG0oZW8dP5LX1wU&m=DEbn9pYQwcNGJ8XtoP1klVtcsRk6bucK0yE6KQfLf7A&s=t09CSqKb5uRz6PJVAHOJE8uwBTgOfmPFKCxvYpBI7lc&e=> > There are indeed additional properties, they just haven't > been singled out as such. Any property, like "bf:musicKey" > is a de facto indicator of a sub-type (aka sub-class). > BIBFRAME has a number of properties whose names begin with > "cartographic..." and others that begin with "music..." So > the type-specific properties exist they just haven't been > organized as such (something which might be useful for > folks cataloging in those areas). > > I disagree that subclassing is static -- at least not in > RDF. Any subject can be an instance of more than one > class, and classes only have impact when operated upon, as > in querying. It is my understanding that in RDF it is very > convenient to operate on data using classes, much more so > than indicating types using values. So there may be a > practical reason for sub-typing, but it doesn't have to > impose limitations, AFAIK. Anyway, it's worth thinking about. > > Note also that some non-library implementations of FRBR > have made use of sub-typing of WEM, some even quite > extensively: > http://speroni.web.cs.unibo.it/cgi-bin/lode/req.py?req=http:/purl.org/spar/fabio > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__speroni.web.cs.unibo.it_cgi-2Dbin_lode_req.py-3Freq-3Dhttp-3A_purl.org_spar_fabio&d=CwMGaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=96Yl7NayWcMu7tyqDmXW25XSKg4bTG0oZW8dP5LX1wU&m=DEbn9pYQwcNGJ8XtoP1klVtcsRk6bucK0yE6KQfLf7A&s=xmUnmqZcfeCLxZK4FhKE3jW1g5N3ag5oUzas8icwMqo&e=> > > The frbrCore vocabulary introduced just a few sample subtypes: > http://vocab.org/frbr/core.html > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__vocab.org_frbr_core.html&d=CwMGaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=96Yl7NayWcMu7tyqDmXW25XSKg4bTG0oZW8dP5LX1wU&m=DEbn9pYQwcNGJ8XtoP1klVtcsRk6bucK0yE6KQfLf7A&s=DRxSw9D5BvcyD37ggmTgN3D8iGVgYw9H1tm_FxGnCaM&e=> > > kc > > > Best regards, > > Oddrun Pauline Ohren > > *Fra:* Bibliographic Framework Transition Initiative Forum > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *På vegne > av* Denenberg, Ray > *Sendt:* 19. januar 2016 20:13 > *Til:* [log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > *Emne:* Re: [BIBFRAME] Events proposal for BIBFRAME 2.0 > > > From: Oddrun Ohren > > > • Not being sure how explicitly point *1.c*of the > proposal is meant, I’d just like > > > to point out that events may play other roles than being > the *subject* of some > > > work, > > The line "A bf:Event will be described in the same manner > as other BIBFRAME Subject Types.." is poorly worded (my > fault). Probably better would be: "An event will be > described in the same manner as other external resources." > > For example, a person. While a bf:Person is a BIBFRAME > resource, it consists of simply a label, and a link to an > external description of the person (a MADS description, > FOAF, VIAF, etc.). That's really all that that was trying > to say: the concept of a bf:Event relies on the > availability of an external description of that event. > (Except that for the event, there may be some basic > properties besides just the label within the BIBFRAME > resource, for example date and time, but for any > additional description there will have to be an external > resource describing the event.) > > it might be useful to > > > represent life-cycle events of a work (launching, > publication, recording) > > > explicitly in some cases. At any rate we should take care > that the Event class is > > > not modelled in such a way that one specific role is assumed. > > Event, as we currently envision it to be modeled, will not > include these life-cycle events, we plan to model these > differently. Tentatively, there will be a property with > name something like bf:originationActivity and class > bf:OriginationActivity, with subclasses like > bf:Publication, bf:Distribution, and so on, and each of > these will have properties like agent, date, place. > > > I am not > > > able to see what bf:Content contributes other than extra > > > (unnecessary) complexity… o Firstly, it is problematic > to constrain something as > > > general-sounding as Content to be a capture of an Event. > > We are currently considering changing the name to > EventContent. > > > o Secondly, if bf:depicts/bf:captures are defined as > properties of both Work and > > > Event (like their parent bf:subject) with expected value > *any resource* > > > (instances of any BIBFRAME class, including Work), there > should be no need for > > > bf:Content. This way, bf:depicts/bf:captures could also > be used to represent the > > > fact that some works capture other works (e.g. > photographs of paintings). > > > o Lastly, seeing that the existing subclasses of Work are > more or less disjunct, > > > bf:Content will create confusion, as it clearly overlaps > several of the existing > > > subclasses. > > These are good points and we will need to discuss them. > > > It will also be possible to represent > > > events as a work where appropriate, without losing the > possibility to express > > > information about capturing > > Do you have an example of an Event that could be modelled > as a Work? > > Thanks much for your comments and suggestions. > > Ray > > > > -- > > Karen Coyle > > [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> http://kcoyle.net > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__kcoyle.net&d=CwMGaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=96Yl7NayWcMu7tyqDmXW25XSKg4bTG0oZW8dP5LX1wU&m=DEbn9pYQwcNGJ8XtoP1klVtcsRk6bucK0yE6KQfLf7A&s=Zj4o607JRUBgOoESo47CyrbGP_UsyAeBby7EakqgH4M&e=> > > m:+1-510-435-8234 <tel:%2B1-510-435-8234> > > skype: kcoylenet/+1-510-984-3600 <tel:%2B1-510-984-3600> > -- Karen Coyle [log in to unmask] http://kcoyle.net m: +1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet/+1-510-984-3600