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I agree that the FRBR-LRM text could be clearer.  Maybe it comes down to
this: when two nomens in the same system context are identical, when are
they the same nomen and when are they different nomens?

Case 1.

Smith, J. [person A]
has alternate nomen - Smith, John

Smith, Johnny [person B]
has alternate nomen - Smith, John

Case 2.

Work A
has subject - Gardening [nomen for res C]

Work B
has subject - Gardening [nomen for res C]

I'd argue that in case 1, "Smith, John" and "Smith, John" are identical but
different nomens because they link to different res, and the case 2
"Gardening" and "Gardening" are the same nomen because they link to the
same res. But I've been wrong before.

Stephen

On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 2:29 PM, Heidrun Wiesenmüller <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Stephen,
>
> I agree that a nomen cannot exist on its own, but must always be tied to
> an entity. But I don't think that two nomens are distinguished from each
> other simply by the fact that they are tied to two different entities. That
> is to say, I do understand *your* reasoning, but I cannot find any evidence
> in LRM that they see it this way.
>
> The definition of nomen is "a designation by which an entity is known" (p.
> 20). And in the scope note says: "A nomen is whatever appellation is used
> to refer to any entity found in the bibliographic universe. (...) Depending
> on context of use, the same sequence of symbols can be assigned as a nomen
> of different entities in the real world even within the same language
> (polysemy and homonymy). (...) The association of nomens to entities is in
> general many-to-many". To me, this means that the same nomen (the same
> appellation) can be used - and in fact, often is used - for several
> entities.
>
> Also, if being associated with different entities would automatically make
> the nomens unique, FRBR-LRM wouldn't have to state on p. 49: "In general,
> the appellation relationship would be many-to-many, however, in the context
> of a particular library system, the intention is that each nomen is used in
> an unambiguous sense by being associated with a single res."
>
> But it is rather frustrating that we need to do, as it were, "exegesis" of
> FRBR-LRM. Couldn't the authors simply have stated clearly what they mean?
> The area of nomens is really rather fuzzy in LRM, especially as it includes
> unique identifiers as well as (potentially non-unique) names.
>
> Heidrun
>
>
>
> "An arbitrary sequence of signs is not a* nomen* until it is assigned to
> be an appellation for something in some context.  Only at this point is it
> significant in the bibliographic universe.  The attributes of the *nomen *entity
> actually characterize the relationship between the *nomen* and the thing (
> *res*) that is named." FRBR-LRM, Table 4.2, LRM-E9)
>
> This stipulates that an unassigned string like "Smith, John" is not a
> nomen until it is assigned as a nomen for a particular John Smith.  That
> assignment serves to individuate the nomen.  The fact that many res
> entities might have the appellation "Smith, John" does not mean that there
> is a single nomen assigned to multiple res.  Rather, each nomen instance
> must be the appellation of a particular res (within a given system).  The
> fact that they all look the same is not relevant to the relationship each
> has with its res.  A name which is unassigned is not a nomen, and identical
> nomens assigned to multiple res does not imply the existence of an
> unassigned nomen entity, or a nomen independent of any particular res.
>
> The difference between two nomens need not be categorical.  Simply being
> assigned as the appellations of two different res in the same category is
> sufficient to differentiate the nomens.
>
> Stephen
>
> On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 4:26 AM, Heidrun Wiesenmüller <
> <[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Thomas,
>>
>> I'm not worried about things like "780".
>>
>> In the attributes list, there is "Category" for a Nomen (LRM-A25). I
>> assume that we could record "DDC number" as a category. Although LRM
>> doesn't state this explicitly (at least I can't remember having seen this
>> in the document), I also assume that there wouldn't be a conflict between
>> two identical nomens if they belong to different categories. So there
>> wouldn't be a problem in having 780 as a DDC number and having other cases
>> of "780", as long as the categories are different.
>>
>> Heidrun
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 27.03.2016 Thomas Berger wrote:
>>
>> Am 27.03.2016 um 11:32 schrieb Heidrun Wiesenmüller:
>>
>> Thomas said:
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't see your problem here, nomens are much more than names, labels
>> or strings.
>>
>> and
>>
>>
>> See above: There are many nomens with identical labels.
>>
>> I'm sorry, but I don't see that at all. As far as I understand LRM, a
>> nomen doesn't *have* a label, a nomen *is* a label (name, title, string,
>> identifier...).  Look at the examples on p. 21f., p. 38 and p. 49.
>>
>> On p. 20, LRM says: "Depending on context of use, the same sequence of
>> symbols can be assigned as a nomen of different entities in the real
>> world even within the same language (polysemy and homonymy). Conversely,
>> the same entity can be referred to by any number of nomens (synonymy).
>> The association of nomens to entities is in general many-to-many."
>>
>> continuing
>>
>> "An arbitrary sequence of signs is not a nomen until it is assigned to
>> be an appellation for something in some context. Only at this point is
>> it significant in the bibliographic universe.
>> ***The attributes of the nomen entity actually characterize the
>> relationship between the nomen and the thing (res) that is named.***"
>> (emphasis mine).
>>
>> one of the examples then is "780" (the DDC notation for "Music" as a
>> concept). Obviously there are many other things that could be named
>> "780", for instance the number 780. So there are many different
>> entities associated with "780".
>>
>>
>>
>> This sounds quite alright to me. But on p. 49, LRM says: "In general,
>> the appellation relationship would be many-to-many, however, in the
>> context of a particular library system, the intention is that each nomen
>> is used in an unambiguous sense by being associated with a single res."
>>
>> So it seems to me that it would not be acceptable for LRM to have "Peter
>> Miller" as a nomen of two different persons.
>>
>> Indeed, and the prescription of the 1:m cardinality makes this
>> perfectly clear (if there was only one nomen "780" it would be
>> exclusively reserved to DDC usage in the bibliographic universe).
>>
>> But it would be acceptable to have two different nomens colloquially
>> called "Peter Miller" (but would these be nomens for nomens?)
>>
>> I think your quote of page 20 is crucial:
>>
>> "Depending on context of use, the same sequence of symbols can be
>> assigned as a nomen of different entities in the real world even
>> within the same language (polysemy and homonymy)"
>>
>> leaves doubt an the question how many nomens are involved when
>> e.g. there is one sequence of symbols and two different entities in
>> the real world.
>>
>> also (the next paragraph):
>> "The identity of a nomen is given by the choice and order of the symbols
>> used within it"
>> could be interpreted that a nomen is uniquely identified (nomens of
>> nomens again?) by the choice and order of the symbols used within it,
>> i.e. there is only one nomen "780" in the universe. However in the
>> light of the succeeding sentence discussing variations in ordering and
>> variations in visual representation IMHO gives no occasion to back
>> up this interpretation.
>>
>> I think the following sentence from p. 20 might be misleading:
>>
>> "The association of a nomen to the entity it represents is a cultural or
>> linguistic convention, there is no inherent meaning embedded in the nomen."
>>
>> could be interpreted as there were an abstract nomen "780" without
>> meaning and then different contexts go on and start associating
>> this with different res.
>>
>> But I do not think this is admissible, it should be rather read as
>> follows: The nomen is necessarily and unvariably tied to exactly one res
>> (otherwise we could not consider it a nomen) but the meaning lies
>> in this tying, not in the symbols used.
>>
>> I could concede that FRBR-LRM is not clear about nomens, and both
>> interpretations exist:
>>
>> (1) There is only one nomen "780" in the universe
>>     => utterly unusable as a model
>>
>> (2) There are (at least) as many nomen "780" in the universe as
>>     there are different entities named by "780"
>>     => might be of some value since these "individual" 780's
>>        can then be equipped with attributes describing the
>>        context of usage (a string "780" could not).
>>
>> viele Gruesse
>> Thomas Berger
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ---------------------
>> Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A.
>> Stuttgart Media University
>> Nobelstrasse 10, 70569 Stuttgart, Germanywww.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Stephen Hearn, Metadata Strategist
> Data Management & Access, University Libraries
> University of Minnesota
> 160 Wilson Library
> 309 19th Avenue South
> Minneapolis, MN 55455
> Ph: 612-625-2328
> Fx: 612-625-3428
> ORCID:  0000-0002-3590-1242
>
>
>
> --
> ---------------------
> Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A.
> Stuttgart Media University
> Nobelstrasse 10, 70569 Stuttgart, Germanywww.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi
>
>


-- 
Stephen Hearn, Metadata Strategist
Data Management & Access, University Libraries
University of Minnesota
160 Wilson Library
309 19th Avenue South
Minneapolis, MN 55455
Ph: 612-625-2328
Fx: 612-625-3428
ORCID:  0000-0002-3590-1242