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Use of LCSH for 372 and 374 has always been a poor fit. At the Folger, we prefer AAT terms: from the Agents facet (http://www.getty.edu/vow/AATFullDisplay?find=&logic=AND&note=&subjectid=300264089) for field 374, and from the Activities facet (http://www.getty.edu/vow/AATFullDisplay?find=&logic=AND&note=&subjectid=300264090) for field 372. That it's a proper thesaurus with a fully realized syndetic structure is a big plus, even if we cannot yet take good advantage of the structure in our catalogs.

We agree that atomizing the concepts is best. With Stephen, we use 374 Actors and 375 female.

Deborah J. Leslie, M.A., M.L.S. | Senior Cataloger, Folger Shakespeare Library | [log in to unmask] | 202.675-0369 | 201 East Capitol St., SE, Washington, DC 20003 | www. folger.edu | orcid.org/0000-0001-5848-5467


From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stephen Hearn
Sent: Tuesday, 24 May 2016 09:43
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Profession/occupation terms and gender/ethnicity/nationality/religion etc.

I agree with Adam's point about 374, if only from a data management perspective. No one should expect to find information about a person's ethnicity or religious affiliation or gender in an "occupation" element.  If that information is going to be recorded, it should be elsewhere.  The issue gets a little murkier when the terms are not compound.  I prefer "374 Actors" with "375 female" over "374 Actresses" for women actors, but there are over 5000 counter examples in NAF.

Stephen

On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 6:19 AM, Van Kleeck,David A <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Agreed.  I think this issues stems, in part, from our training to use the most specific term we can when choosing subject headings for bibliographic records.  Maybe, as Adam suggests, the shift to focus on the use of LCDGT for 374 would be the way to go.  At the least, we should be using "Translators", not "Women translators," as Robert suggests.

Dave

David Van Kleeck
Head, Special Collections Unit
Cataloging and Discovery Services
University of Florida
P.O. Box 117004
Gainesville, FL 32611-7004
352-273-2863<tel:352-273-2863>
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http://orcid.org/0000-0001-5649-321X


From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Robert Maxwell
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 1:40 AM

To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Profession/occupation terms and gender/ethnicity/nationality/religion etc.

I agree with Adam. I also note that PCC policy is to prefer terms from controlled vocabularies, but not to require them, nor does it require the use of LCSH even when using a controlled vocabulary, so I don't think we can lay the blame entirely at LCSH's feet. It would be perfectly possible to make up an uncontrolled form following the pattern in LCSH ("women clarinetists")--PLEASE don't do that! But just because it's in LCSH doesn't make it appropriate to use--use "Translators", not "Women translators" in 374.

Bob

Robert L. Maxwell
Ancient Languages and Special Collections Cataloger
6728 Harold B. Lee Library
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
(801)422-5568<tel:%28801%29422-5568>

"We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to the course which has been heretofore pursued"--Eliza R. Snow, 1842.
________________________________
From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Dagher, Iman <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 4:16:30 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Profession/occupation terms and gender/ethnicity/nationality/religion etc.

I agree with Adam and John’s recommendation.
However, in some instances I find the 368 $c a good place to use for some other attributes that are not necessarily from controlled vocabularies, such as some religious titles that can be relevant to identify certain people to: Shaykh or ‘Allamah, etc.
Also some catalogers tend to add what they have as SH of bibliographic records in the 372 field of NAR which may not be relevant or true as field of activity of the author.
Iman
From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Hostage
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 2:25 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Profession/occupation terms and gender/ethnicity/nationality/religion etc.

An inevitable consequence of telling people to use LCSH.  ☺

------------------------------------------
John Hostage
Senior Continuing Resources Cataloger
Harvard Library--Information and Technical Services
Langdell Hall 194
Harvard Law School Library
Cambridge, MA 02138
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+(1)(617) 495-3974<tel:%2B%281%29%28617%29%20495-3974> (voice)
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From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Adam L. Schiff
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 16:46
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: [PCCLIST] Profession/occupation terms and gender/ethnicity/nationality/religion etc.

There’s been a lot of posts in the past week about lousy qualifier choices, e.g. (Graduate student).

I don’t have anything to add to that discussion, but it made me think about one of my particular pet peeves that I see in RDA records.  It has to do with what some catalogers are recording as profession/occupation.  Here are some examples:

374    Women physicians ǂa Surgeons ǂ2 lcsh

374    African American political activists ǂ2 lcsh

374    African American poets ǂa Authors, Black ǂ2 lcsh

374    African American poets ǂa Women poets ǂ2 lcsh

374    Women composers ǂ2 lcsh

374    Women translators ǂa Women missionaries ǂ2 lcsh

374    African American women singers ǂ2 lcsh

374    Mexican American musicians ǂ2 lcsh

374    Authors, Canadian ǂ2 lcsh

374    Hockey players ǂa Athletes ǂa Authors ǂa Jewish authors ǂ2 lcsh

374    Christian authors ǂa Women television personalities ǂ2 lcsh

374    Gay journalists ǂ2 lcsh

If you haven’t figured out my peeve yet, it’s the inclusion of gender, religion, nationality, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. in profession/occupation terms recorded in this field.    One does not go to school to study to be a woman physician or an African American poet or a gay journalist or Canadian author.  Including qualifying terms serves to segregate people of the same occupation, and I don’t think this is a good thing in authority records.  Why should women composers be labeled differently from men composers?   Shouldn’t all poets be grouped together under a single term?

Gender already has a separate field (375) that can be recorded in authority records.  If catalogers feel that religion, nationality, ethnicity or other characteristics are important to record there IS a place for it in the MARC format:
MARC field 368 (Other Attributes of Person or Corporate Body), subfield $c (Other designation).   While RDA doesn’t include provisions for recording religion, national, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or other characteristics not included elsewhere in RDA instructions, 368 $c can be used for this, and has already been by some catalogers, e.g.:

368   ǂc Gay men ǂc Presbyterians ǂ2 lcdgt

368   ǂc Catholics ǂ2 lcsh

368   ǂc African Americans ǂ2 lcdgt

368   ǂc Italian Americans ǂc Lesbians ǂ2 lcdgt

As long as individuals identify themselves as being in a particular demographic group, or are so identified in reputable reference sources, I don’t have any qualms with including these kinds of characteristics in 368 $c if they are useful and could help to identify persons.  Discussion??

Adam Schiff

Adam L. Schiff
Principal Cataloger
University of Washington Libraries
Cataloging & Metadata Services
Box 352900
Seattle, WA 98195-2900
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--
Stephen Hearn, Metadata Strategist
Data Management & Access, University Libraries
University of Minnesota
160 Wilson Library
309 19th Avenue South
Minneapolis, MN 55455
Ph: 612-625-2328
Fx: 612-625-3428
ORCID:  0000-0002-3590-1242