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Richard’s way is correct.  That is the example used in LC-PCC PS for K.1.  I generally imagine a whispered “has” before the relationship designator.  As stated on page 9 of the document I referenced earlier, the direction of the relationships in the Toolkit is sometimes ambiguous.  However, the definitions can be helpful.
founded corporate body of person   An organization that the person founded.

It defines an organization, so that’s what comes after the designator in the 5XX field.

In RDF terms, a relationship designator is like the predicate of a triple, and this one includes both the domain (person) and the range (corporate body) of the triple.  That’s why it’s so confusing.

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John Hostage
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From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Moore, Richard
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2016 11:15
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] "founded corporate body" now three wordy RDs

I think it’s Paul’s way round ;-)

K.2.3 has “Record an appropriate term from the following list with the authorized access point or identifier for a related person”. In MARC 21 we do that in a 500 field. To record a person’s relationship to a body, we record a term from the list, and the authorized access point for the person, in a 500 field in the NAR for the corporate body:

1102 $a I.M. Pei Associates
5001 $i Founder: $a Pei, I.M., $d 1917- $w r

Imagine a whispered “see also” before the relationship designator…

At least, I hope that’s right or we’ve been doing it wrong.


Regards
Richard

________________________
Richard Moore
Authority Control Team Manager
The British Library

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From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]]<mailto:[mailto:[log in to unmask]]> On Behalf Of Benjamin A Abrahamse
Sent: 08 September 2016 16:02
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] "founded corporate body" now three wordy RDs

Paul, unless I’m mistaken I think it’s the other way around.

“Founder” is listed under relators from persons to cb’s (K.2.3) and “Founded corporate body of person” is under relators from corporate bodies to persons (K.4.1)

So I think it should be:

100  1\ $a Pei, I. M., $d 1917-
500  2\ $i  Founder: $a I.M. Pei Associates $w r

500 2\ $a I.M. Pei Associates
100 1\ $i Founded corporate body of person: $a Pei, I. M., $d 1917-

(It makes slightly more sense if you insert a silent is the between the term and its antecedent, i.e.:

I.M. Pei is the founder of I.M. Pei Associates
I.M. Pei Associates is the founded corporate body of person, I.M. Pei.)

Why the prepositional phrase “of person [corporate body, etc.]” belongs in the latter relator is a bit of a mystery to me.

b


From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul Robert Burley
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2016 10:32 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] "founded corporate body" now three wordy RDs

To clarify, we should now use:

100      1#        $a Pei, I. M., $d 1917-
510      2#        $w r $i Founded corporate body of person: $a I.M. Pei Associates

Paul Burley

From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Benjamin A Abrahamse
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2016 8:34 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] "founded corporate body" now three wordy RDs

It’s definitely confusing to to point of near meaninglessness, and I’m not sure it’s really necessary to specify person, corporate body, etc. in the relationship itself. (No other relators that I know of do this.)

For the life of me I cannot figure out what’s wrong with

“Founder:” (connecting corp. body to person/corp. body/family that founded the entity)
“Founded:” (connecting person/corp. body/family to corp. body they founded)

b

From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Noble, Richard
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2016 8:33 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] "founded corporate body" now three wordy RDs


On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 2:12 AM, Moore, Richard <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
The phrase “Founded corporate body of person” is (one assumes) clear to whoever devised it, is obscure to you and me, and will be meaningless to a user.


​It has the look of a phrase mechanically translated and rearranged from a different language​, invoking a rule that in English an adjective must precede the noun it modifies, though here it functions as a past participle, and with a preposition translated "of" that would be properly translated as "by". Might this have been the process?


RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY
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