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Sounds Germanic in which "von" means "by" for authorship.

Can we speak English?

Gene Fieg

On Thursday, September 8, 2016, Ed M. Kazzimir <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> "... That’s why it’s so confusing."
>
>
>
> That's not the only reason why it's so confusing.  I agree with Hal that
> the preposition "of" is grammatically incorrect, and does not make sense in
> English.  The proper English preposition for the causative agent or agency
> is "by", not "of" (the equivalent of the instrumental case in other
> languages).
>
>
>
> The word "of" must be connected either to the word "founded" or "body".
> The designator as currently written means either "founded ... of" (which
> makes no sense to me; how is something founded of someone or something?) or
> "body of" (which again is bewildering).  Or am I new to the expression
> "founded of"?
>
>
>
> In regards to this example:
>
>     I.M. Pei Associates *is the *founded corporate body of person, I.M.
> Pei.
>
> The English should be "is the corporate body founded by person ..."  The
> body is founded by someone.  It is a "founded corporate body" where
> "founded" modifies the noun "body", but the body is not "of" a person.
> Perhaps the phrasing "body of person" (a genitive construction) can mean
> something (it does not to me), but I find it to be such a bizarre and
> highly unusual grammatical construction that it becomes meaningless in
> ordinary speech.
>
>
>
>
>
> Ed Kazzimir
>
> Alaska Resources Library and Information Services.
>
>
>
> *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> GOV <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>] *On
> Behalf Of *John Hostage
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 08, 2016 7:51 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>
> *Subject:* Re: [PCCLIST] "founded corporate body" now three wordy RDs
>
>
>
> Richard’s way is correct.  That is the example used in LC-PCC PS for K.1.
> I generally imagine a whispered “has” before the relationship designator.
> As stated on page 9 of the document I referenced earlier, the direction of
> the relationships in the Toolkit is sometimes ambiguous.  However, the
> definitions can be helpful.
>
> *founded corporate body of person*   An organization that the person
> founded.
>
>
>
> It defines an organization, so that’s what comes after the designator in
> the 5XX field.
>
>
>
> In RDF terms, a relationship designator is like the predicate of a triple,
> and this one includes both the domain (person) and the range (corporate
> body) of the triple.  That’s why it’s so confusing.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------
>
> John Hostage
>
> Senior Continuing Resources Cataloger
>
> Harvard Library--Information and Technical Services
>
> Langdell Hall 194
>
> Harvard Law School Library
>
> Cambridge, MA 02138
>
> [log in to unmask]
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>
>
> +(1)(617) 495-3974 (voice)
>
> +(1)(617) 496-4409 (fax)
> ISNI 0000 0000 4028 0917
>
>
>
> *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> GOV <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>] *On
> Behalf Of *Moore, Richard
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 08, 2016 11:15
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>
> *Subject:* Re: [PCCLIST] "founded corporate body" now three wordy RDs
>
>
>
> I think it’s Paul’s way round ;-)
>
>
>
> K.2.3 has “Record an appropriate term from the following list with the
> authorized access point or identifier for a related person”. In MARC 21 we
> do that in a 500 field. To record a person’s relationship to a body, we
> record a term from the list, and the authorized access point for the
> person, in a 500 field in the NAR for the corporate body:
>
>
>
> 1102 $a I.M. Pei Associates
>
> 5001 $i Founder: $a Pei, I.M., $d 1917- $w r
>
>
>
> Imagine a whispered “see also” before the relationship designator…
>
>
>
> At least, I hope that’s right or we’ve been doing it wrong.
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Richard
>
>
>
> ________________________
>
> Richard Moore
>
> Authority Control Team Manager
>
> The British Library
>
>
>
> Tel.: +44 (0)1937 546104
>
> E-mail: [log in to unmask]
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> GOV]
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','%5Bmailto:[log in to unmask]);> *On
> Behalf Of *Benjamin A Abrahamse
> *Sent:* 08 September 2016 16:02
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>
> *Subject:* Re: [PCCLIST] "founded corporate body" now three wordy RDs
>
>
>
> Paul, unless I’m mistaken I think it’s the other way around.
>
>
>
> “Founder” is listed under relators from *persons to cb*’s (K.2.3) and
> “Founded corporate body of person” is under relators *from corporate
> bodies to persons* (K.4.1)
>
>
>
> So I think it should be:
>
>
>
> 100  1\ $a Pei, I. M., $d 1917-
>
> 500  2\ $i  Founder: $a I.M. Pei Associates $w r
>
>
>
> 500 2\ $a I.M. Pei Associates
>
> 100 1\ $i Founded corporate body of person: $a Pei, I. M., $d 1917-
>
>
>
> (It makes slightly more sense if you insert a silent *is the* between the
> term and its antecedent, i.e.:
>
>
>
> I.M. Pei *is the *founder *of* I.M. Pei Associates
>
> I.M. Pei Associates *is the *founded corporate body of person, I.M. Pei.)
>
>
>
> Why the prepositional phrase “of person [corporate body, etc.]” belongs in
> the latter relator is a bit of a mystery to me.
>
>
>
> b
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> GOV <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>] *On
> Behalf Of *Paul Robert Burley
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 08, 2016 10:32 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>
> *Subject:* Re: [PCCLIST] "founded corporate body" now three wordy RDs
>
>
>
> To clarify, we should now use:
>
>
>
> 100      1#        $a Pei, I. M., $d 1917-
>
> 510      2#        $w r $i Founded corporate body of person: $a I.M. Pei
> Associates
>
>
>
> Paul Burley
>
>
>
> *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> GOV <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>] *On
> Behalf Of *Benjamin A Abrahamse
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 08, 2016 8:34 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>
> *Subject:* Re: [PCCLIST] "founded corporate body" now three wordy RDs
>
>
>
> It’s definitely confusing to to point of near meaninglessness, and I’m not
> sure it’s really necessary to specify person, corporate body, etc. in the
> relationship itself. (No other relators that I know of do this.)
>
>
>
> For the life of me I cannot figure out what’s wrong with
>
>
>
> “Founder:” (connecting corp. body to person/corp. body/family that founded
> the entity)
>
> “Founded:” (connecting person/corp. body/family to corp. body they founded)
>
>
>
> b
>
>
>
> *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> GOV <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>] *On
> Behalf Of *Noble, Richard
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 08, 2016 8:33 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>
> *Subject:* Re: [PCCLIST] "founded corporate body" now three wordy RDs
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 2:12 AM, Moore, Richard <[log in to unmask]
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>> wrote:
>
> The phrase “Founded corporate body of person” is (one assumes) clear to
> whoever devised it, is obscure to you and me, and will be meaningless to a
> user.
>
>
>
>
>
> ​It has the look of a phrase mechanically translated and rearranged from
> a different language​, invoking a rule that in English an adjective must
> precede the noun it modifies, though here it functions as a past
> participle, and with a preposition translated "of" that would be properly
> translated as "by". Might this have been the process?
>
>
>
> RICHARD NOBLE :: RARE MATERIALS CATALOGUER :: JOHN HAY LIBRARY
>
> BROWN UNIVERSITY  ::  PROVIDENCE, R.I. 02912  ::  401-863-1187
>
> <Richard_Noble@Br
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> >
>
>
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