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Thanks to Netanel for coming up with the SHM sections which clearly
conditioned some of what we see in the name authorities for these
fictitious characters; but given that they are now (at least) name
authorities, is SHM still relevant?  If fictitious characters don't get
moved back into the subjects realm, then RDA and LC-PCC PSs need to address
some of these issues.

Stephen

On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 1:07 PM, Adam L. Schiff <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Ben,
>
> We can already do this in NARs, simply by not including a relationship
> designator in the 5XX field.  Without a RD the relationship is just a
> general see also related entity.  The PCC guidelines for use of RDs in
> authority records, which hasn't come out yet in final approved form,
> suggests including a 667 or 678 field to explain the relationship when no
> RD is used.  A 678 would be appropriate in this case, something like:
>
> 678 0   Christopher Robin is a fictional character created by A.A. Milne,
> based on Milne's son Christopher Robin Milne.
>
> Adam
>
> Adam L. Schiff
> Principal Cataloger
> University of Washington Libraries
> Box 352900
> Seattle, WA 98195-2900
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 10:51 AM -0700, "Benjamin A Abrahamse" <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> I feel like, while it may make sense to call out a relationship between
> Christopher Robin Milne and Christopher Robin, the current state of the RDA
> vocabulary doesn’t really seem to support a way of doing it responsibly.
>
>
>
> Based on the Wikipedia article alone, the relationship between the
> fictional character Christopher Robin and the person known to the catalog
> as Milne, Christopher, 1920-1996, seems complex. (As I presume are all
> relationships between living persons and their literary doppelganger.)  He
> wrote a whole memoir about it. I should hate to see it boiled down in the
> crucible of RDA appendix K to emerge as “Alternate identity”. Even
> something like “based on” or “fictionalization of” (which don’t currently
> exist) seem a bit crude.
>
>
>
> If the ALA proposal to have a generic “related entity” relator term is
> incorporated into the Toolkit, this might be a good example of where
> recording a non-specific relationship would be appropriate.
>
>
>
> --Ben
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> GOV] *On Behalf Of *Stephen Hearn
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 19, 2016 12:57 PM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: [PCCLIST] Christopher Robin
>
>
>
> Is there a relationship between Christopher Milne the person and
> Christopher Robin the character? If so, would you express it or not, and
> how?
>
>
>
> There's no expressed relationship between "Alice (Fictitious character
> from Carroll)" and "Hargreaves, Alice Pleasance Liddell, 1852-1934" in
> their authorities.  On the other hand, there is a 400 for "Fairchild,
> Alice, Lady (Fictitious character)", the version of Alice which Alan Moore
> presents in Lost girls, in the authority for "Alice (Fictitious character
> from Carroll)". The Moore version of Dorothy Gale has a 400 on the "Gale,
> Dorothy (Fictitious character)" authority; and the authority for "Darling,
> Wendy (Fictitious character)" appears to go further down this rabbit hole.
>
>
>
> Stephen
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:08 AM, Netanel Ganin <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> I concur with my esteemed colleague Ann, and am emboldened by same from
> Pete and Benjamin.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your thoughts, all.
>
>
> Netanel Ganin
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Metadata Coordinator -- Hebrew Specialty
>
> Brandeis University
>
> (781) 736-4645 / [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
> My pronouns are he/him/his
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:27 AM, Benjamin A Abrahamse <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> I think Ann is correct, inasmuch as the name “Christopher Robin” is
> derived
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Robin#Christopher_Robin_Milne>
> from “Christopher Robin Milne” it should be: 100 0\ $a Christopher Robin $c
> (Fictional character).
>
>
>
> And since this has escaped people’s attention, add a “see” ref.: 400 1\ $a
> Robin, Christopher $c (Fictional character).
>
>
>
> --Ben
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> GOV] *On Behalf Of *Ann Kardos
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 19, 2016 10:51 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: [PCCLIST] Christopher Robin
>
>
>
> All,
>
> I agree that Christipher Robin should likely be made distinct.  My
> understanding is with the previous responder that RDA allows us to
> unambiguously describe entities that may not have been described
> previously.  But here's my question...  Is Robin his last name?  I always
> thought his name was being used like first and middle, as if my mother were
> calling me Ann Marie vs. Ann.
>
> Anyway, Christopher Robin stars in several books, several movies, and with
> Disney, who knows what else he may feature in.  Shouldn't he be given a
> name of his own?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Julian Everett Allgood <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Dear Pete and Netanel :
>
> Hi -- I may be completely off-base on this and if so, I will rely on our
> colleagues to quickly set me straight (smile!).
>
> But to my understanding of the AACR2 and RDA Cataloging Standards, this
> question of whether or not a given Entity (in this case, the fictitious
> character Christopher Robin) is "eligible" for a NACO Name Authority Record
> is really critical.
>
> With AACR2 and its emphasis on describing Items, NACO Catalogers relied
> largely upon "bibliographic warrant" in order to establish names, titles,
> subjects, geographic areas, etc. That is, there needed to be a
> bibliographic resource libraries would be interested in acquiring for their
> collections in order for a NACO or SACO Cataloger to create a Name or
> Subject Authority Record for an Entity.
>
> One of the things that RDA has done very well (in my opinion) is to
> discard the "Bibliographic Warrant" prerequisite for NACO & SACO
> Identifiers. In doing so, RDA has expanded the universe of Entities
> eligible to be described unambiguously within controlled language
> vocabularies. And this is critical as libraries and the Information
> Community moves forward.
>
> Whereas AACR2 was almost exclusively concerned with Item descriptions, the
> primary focus of RDA (again, IMHO) is upon Entities and the Relationships
> between and among those Entities. If any conceivable Entity (and its
> Relationships) is now eligible for description within our Bibliographic and
> Authority files, then we as Librarians and players within the Information
> Landscape must be able to Identify each of those Entities uniquely and
> unambiguously, right?
>
> Getting back to our "Christopher Robin" example, Users and Information
> Consumers need to be able to quickly and easily distinguish between:
>
> Robin, Christopher, $d 1908-
>
> Robin, Christopher, $d 1953-
>
> Robin, Christopher, $c (Fictitious character)
>
> ... as well as Christopher Robin -- the author of the 2004 work, *Flung, *and
> all of the Christopher Robins who have lived but may not yet be established
> within the world's assorted Authority Files. And of course, all of those
> Christopher Robins not yet born.
>
> As you can probably by this point tell, I believe that the RDA approach to
> NACO Entity Descriptions is wise. And that yes indeed, Christopher Robin,
> the fictitious character is eligible for a Name Entity Identifier.
>
> my two cents,
>
> Everett Allgood
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 8:30 AM, Netanel Ganin <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the thoughts Pete, I was mostly concerned that there was some
> pressing 'Official' reason that subject had been used (though having
> checked LC's own catalog [which I should've done before] I see that though
> the heading is on at least one DLC record, it isn't in LC's catalog)
>
>
>
> best,
>
>
> Netanel Ganin
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Metadata Coordinator -- Hebrew Specialty
>
> Brandeis University
>
> (781) 736-4645 / [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
> My pronouns are he/him/his
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Wilson, Pete <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> I agree that Christopher Robin is not Christopher Milne.
>
>
>
> My only question is:  do we really need a fictitious character heading for
> Christopher Robin?  We don’t make one for every fictitious character.  The
> dubious assertion that certain books were fiction about the real-life
> Christopher Milne seems to have been thought by at least one cataloger to
> have been of interest for cataloging purposes, but I’m not sure there’s a
> call for a heading for Christopher Robin the fictitious character, unless
> he has been a character in some non-Pooh-related books, or a subject of
> nonfiction books.  Which may well be.
>
>
>
> Pete Wilson
>
> Vanderbilt University
>
>
>
> *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> GOV] *On Behalf Of *Netanel Ganin
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 18, 2016 8:29 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* [PCCLIST] Christopher Robin
>
>
>
> Greetings PCC,
>
>
>
> While cataloging a Winnie-the-Pooh Hebrew translation, I ran into an
> oddity. I wanted to run it by some wisdom lest I run afoul of an
> established practice.
>
>
>
> I note that there are a few records in OCLC for Winnie-the-Pooh related
> resources which have a subject heading of
>
>
>
> *600 1 0 Milne, Christopher 1920-1996. Juvenile fiction*
>
>
>
> (Indeed, the OCLC record I was working from had the same heading)
>
>
>
> It seems to this cataloger that Christopher Robin, though based on the
> actual son of A.A. Milne, is a distinct person in his own right and his
> appearances in fiction are not simply fictionalized appearances of
> Christopher Milne.
>
>
>
> Compare with
>
>
>
> *Alice (Fictitious character from Carroll) *and
>
>
>
> *Hargreaves, Alice Pleasance Liddell, 1852-1934*
>
>
>
> Here the distinction has been drawn between a fictional character which
> shares a name with, and is based on, an actual person.
>
> ----
>
>
>
> So what say you O Best Beloved, am I justified in creating:
>
>
>
> *Robin, Christopher (Fictitious character)*? (actual AAP may vary)
>
>
>
> best,
>
>
> Netanel Ganin
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Metadata Coordinator -- Hebrew Specialty
>
> Brandeis University
>
> (781) 736-4645 / [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
> My pronouns are he/him/his
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *************************
>
> Everett Allgood
> Authorities Librarian & Principal Serials Cataloger
> New York University Libraries
> [log in to unmask]
> 212 998 2488
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Ann Kardos*
>
> Metadata & Resource Sharing Coordinator
>
> Brandeis University
>
> Library & Technology Services
>
> [log in to unmask]
>
> 781.736.4649
>
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>
>
> --
>
> Stephen Hearn, Metadata Strategist
>
> Data Management & Access, University Libraries
>
> University of Minnesota
>
> 160 Wilson Library
>
> 309 19th Avenue South
>
> Minneapolis, MN 55455
>
> Ph: 612-625-2328
>
> Fx: 612-625-3428
>
> ORCID:  0000-0002-3590-1242
>



-- 
Stephen Hearn, Metadata Strategist
Data Management & Access, University Libraries
University of Minnesota
160 Wilson Library
309 19th Avenue South
Minneapolis, MN 55455
Ph: 612-625-2328
Fx: 612-625-3428
ORCID:  0000-0002-3590-1242