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Thanks to Netanel for coming up with the SHM sections which clearly conditioned some of what we see in the name authorities for these fictitious characters; but given that they are now (at least) name authorities, is SHM still relevant?  If fictitious characters don't get moved back into the subjects realm, then RDA and LC-PCC PSs need to address some of these issues.

Stephen

On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 1:07 PM, Adam L. Schiff <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Ben, 

We can already do this in NARs, simply by not including a relationship designator in the 5XX field.  Without a RD the relationship is just a general see also related entity.  The PCC guidelines for use of RDs in authority records, which hasn't come out yet in final approved form, suggests including a 667 or 678 field to explain the relationship when no RD is used.  A 678 would be appropriate in this case, something like:

678 0   Christopher Robin is a fictional character created by A.A. Milne, based on Milne's son Christopher Robin Milne. 

Adam 

Adam L. Schiff
Principal Cataloger
University of Washington Libraries
Box 352900
Seattle, WA 98195-2900




On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 10:51 AM -0700, "Benjamin A Abrahamse" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

I feel like, while it may make sense to call out a relationship between Christopher Robin Milne and Christopher Robin, the current state of the RDA vocabulary doesn’t really seem to support a way of doing it responsibly.

 

Based on the Wikipedia article alone, the relationship between the fictional character Christopher Robin and the person known to the catalog as Milne, Christopher, 1920-1996, seems complex. (As I presume are all relationships between living persons and their literary doppelganger.)  He wrote a whole memoir about it. I should hate to see it boiled down in the crucible of RDA appendix K to emerge as “Alternate identity”. Even something like “based on” or “fictionalization of” (which don’t currently exist) seem a bit crude.

 

If the ALA proposal to have a generic “related entity” relator term is incorporated into the Toolkit, this might be a good example of where recording a non-specific relationship would be appropriate.

 

--Ben

 

 

From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]GOV] On Behalf Of Stephen Hearn
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 12:57 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Christopher Robin

 

Is there a relationship between Christopher Milne the person and Christopher Robin the character? If so, would you express it or not, and how? 

 

There's no expressed relationship between "Alice (Fictitious character from Carroll)" and "Hargreaves, Alice Pleasance Liddell, 1852-1934" in their authorities.  On the other hand, there is a 400 for "Fairchild, Alice, Lady (Fictitious character)", the version of Alice which Alan Moore presents in Lost girls, in the authority for "Alice (Fictitious character from Carroll)". The Moore version of Dorothy Gale has a 400 on the "Gale, Dorothy (Fictitious character)" authority; and the authority for "Darling, Wendy (Fictitious character)" appears to go further down this rabbit hole.

 

Stephen

 

On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:08 AM, Netanel Ganin <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

I concur with my esteemed colleague Ann, and am emboldened by same from Pete and Benjamin.

 

Thanks for your thoughts, all.


Netanel Ganin

------------------------------------------------------------

Metadata Coordinator -- Hebrew Specialty

Brandeis University

 

My pronouns are he/him/his

 

 

On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:27 AM, Benjamin A Abrahamse <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

I think Ann is correct, inasmuch as the name “Christopher Robin” is derived from “Christopher Robin Milne” it should be: 100 0\ $a Christopher Robin $c (Fictional character).

 

And since this has escaped people’s attention, add a “see” ref.: 400 1\ $a Robin, Christopher $c (Fictional character).

 

--Ben

 

 

From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]GOV] On Behalf Of Ann Kardos
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 10:51 AM
To:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Christopher Robin

 

All,

I agree that Christipher Robin should likely be made distinct.  My understanding is with the previous responder that RDA allows us to unambiguously describe entities that may not have been described previously.  But here's my question...  Is Robin his last name?  I always thought his name was being used like first and middle, as if my mother were calling me Ann Marie vs. Ann.

Anyway, Christopher Robin stars in several books, several movies, and with Disney, who knows what else he may feature in.  Shouldn't he be given a name of his own?

 

On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Julian Everett Allgood <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Dear Pete and Netanel :

Hi -- I may be completely off-base on this and if so, I will rely on our colleagues to quickly set me straight (smile!).

But to my understanding of the AACR2 and RDA Cataloging Standards, this question of whether or not a given Entity (in this case, the fictitious character Christopher Robin) is "eligible" for a NACO Name Authority Record is really critical. 

With AACR2 and its emphasis on describing Items, NACO Catalogers relied largely upon "bibliographic warrant" in order to establish names, titles, subjects, geographic areas, etc. That is, there needed to be a bibliographic resource libraries would be interested in acquiring for their collections in order for a NACO or SACO Cataloger to create a Name or Subject Authority Record for an Entity.

One of the things that RDA has done very well (in my opinion) is to discard the "Bibliographic Warrant" prerequisite for NACO & SACO Identifiers. In doing so, RDA has expanded the universe of Entities eligible to be described unambiguously within controlled language vocabularies. And this is critical as libraries and the Information Community moves forward.

Whereas AACR2 was almost exclusively concerned with Item descriptions, the primary focus of RDA (again, IMHO) is upon Entities and the Relationships between and among those Entities. If any conceivable Entity (and its Relationships) is now eligible for description within our Bibliographic and Authority files, then we as Librarians and players within the Information Landscape must be able to Identify each of those Entities uniquely and unambiguously, right?

Getting back to our "Christopher Robin" example, Users and Information Consumers need to be able to quickly and easily distinguish between:

Robin, Christopher, $d 1908-

Robin, Christopher, $d 1953-

Robin, Christopher, $c (Fictitious character)

... as well as Christopher Robin -- the author of the 2004 work, Flung, and all of the Christopher Robins who have lived but may not yet be established within the world's assorted Authority Files. And of course, all of those Christopher Robins not yet born.

As you can probably by this point tell, I believe that the RDA approach to NACO Entity Descriptions is wise. And that yes indeed, Christopher Robin, the fictitious character is eligible for a Name Entity Identifier.

my two cents,

Everett Allgood

 

 

On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 8:30 AM, Netanel Ganin <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Thanks for the thoughts Pete, I was mostly concerned that there was some pressing 'Official' reason that subject had been used (though having checked LC's own catalog [which I should've done before] I see that though the heading is on at least one DLC record, it isn't in LC's catalog)

 

best,


Netanel Ganin

------------------------------------------------------------

Metadata Coordinator -- Hebrew Specialty

Brandeis University

 

My pronouns are he/him/his

 

 

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Wilson, Pete <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

I agree that Christopher Robin is not Christopher Milne.

 

My only question is:  do we really need a fictitious character heading for Christopher Robin?  We don’t make one for every fictitious character.  The dubious assertion that certain books were fiction about the real-life Christopher Milne seems to have been thought by at least one cataloger to have been of interest for cataloging purposes, but I’m not sure there’s a call for a heading for Christopher Robin the fictitious character, unless he has been a character in some non-Pooh-related books, or a subject of nonfiction books.  Which may well be.

 

Pete Wilson

Vanderbilt University

 

From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]GOV] On Behalf Of Netanel Ganin
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 8:29 AM
To:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: [PCCLIST] Christopher Robin

 

Greetings PCC, 

 

While cataloging a Winnie-the-Pooh Hebrew translation, I ran into an oddity. I wanted to run it by some wisdom lest I run afoul of an established practice.

 

I note that there are a few records in OCLC for Winnie-the-Pooh related resources which have a subject heading of 

 

600 1 0 Milne, Christopher 1920-1996. Juvenile fiction

 

(Indeed, the OCLC record I was working from had the same heading)

 

It seems to this cataloger that Christopher Robin, though based on the actual son of A.A. Milne, is a distinct person in his own right and his appearances in fiction are not simply fictionalized appearances of Christopher Milne.

 

Compare with

 

Alice (Fictitious character from Carroll) and

 

Hargreaves, Alice Pleasance Liddell, 1852-1934

 

Here the distinction has been drawn between a fictional character which shares a name with, and is based on, an actual person.

----

 

So what say you O Best Beloved, am I justified in creating: 

 

Robin, Christopher (Fictitious character)? (actual AAP may vary)

 

best,


Netanel Ganin

------------------------------------------------------------

Metadata Coordinator -- Hebrew Specialty

Brandeis University

 

My pronouns are he/him/his

 

 




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Everett Allgood
Authorities Librarian & Principal Serials Cataloger
New York University Libraries
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Ann Kardos

Metadata & Resource Sharing Coordinator

Brandeis University

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--

Stephen Hearn, Metadata Strategist

Data Management & Access, University Libraries

University of Minnesota

160 Wilson Library

309 19th Avenue South

Minneapolis, MN 55455

ORCID:  0000-0002-3590-1242




--
Stephen Hearn, Metadata Strategist
Data Management & Access, University Libraries
University of Minnesota
160 Wilson Library
309 19th Avenue South
Minneapolis, MN 55455
Ph: 612-625-2328
Fx: 612-625-3428
ORCID:  0000-0002-3590-1242