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While I agree with you that the two Torches aren't really the same person
(and noting that one isn't even human is a very salient detail to me) a
non-comprehensive look at the treatment of comic book characters in the NAF
does reveal that the super-heroic identities are treated like a collective
pseudonym shared by multiple people.

(I wrote a lot of about this, including both Captain Marvel and the Torch,
here:
https://inevermetadataididntlike.wordpress.com/2015/12/24/just-who-is-ms-marvel-anyway/
)

Best,

Netanel Ganin

Pronouns: he/his/him


On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 7:09 PM, Wilson, Pete <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> That’s an interesting decision on the two Human Torches.  It must have
> been influenced by the fact that Timely Comics was the predecessor to
> Marvel Comics, meaning that the Torch who battled the Sub-Mariner endlessly
> in the Golden Age is part of the same “universe,” more or less, as Johnny
> Storm of the Fantastic Four.  And, I suppose, by the fact that, when at
> work, both look like a red outline of a genitalia-free male with flames all
> over him.
>
>
>
> I notice that Captain Marvel, the Fawcett character who was Billy Batson
> until he said “Shazam!,” has his own name authority record, while the
> various entities called “Captain Marvel” in comics published by the Marvel
> group have a separate record.  The Billy Batson Captain looks completely
> different from the Marvel Captains, of course.  I don’t know whether they
> all look alike or not, having never really gotten into Marvel and having
> been off comics for quite a while in general.  One is female, so that would
> presumably make for a visual difference (this is comics, after all)
>
>
>
> The two Torches seem to have been lumped into one authority record based
> on a kind of commercial interchangeability.   Jim Hammond and Johnny Storm
> were owned by more or less the same entity and sold comics for that entity
> by flying around while on fire, and surely a person born in 1931 might have
> picked up a Fantastic Four comic book in 1965 and mistaken Johnny Storm for
> the good old Golden Age Torch.
>
>
>
> But they are not the same character, and the names are not aliases for the
> same person (or android in the first Torch’s case).  The decision seems to
> me a little fudged.
>
>
>
> Pete Wilson
>
> Vanderbilt University
>
>
>
> *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> GOV] *On Behalf Of *Netanel Ganin
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 19, 2016 12:19 PM
>
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: [PCCLIST] Christopher Robin
>
>
>
> Stephen,
>
>
>
> You raise important questions (and ones with which I've struggled and
> wrestled)
>
>
>
> I think LC's policy in terms of subject access is pretty clear though
>
>
>
> Three citations (because we all love citing policy, don't we):
>
>
>
> 1.
>
>
>
> H 1610 Fictitious Characters Section 5. Assignment of headings (emphasis
> mine)
>
>
>
> For individual plays or poems assign a subject heading only if the
> character has been borrowed by the author from another author or source and
> used in the creation of a new work. *For subject cataloging purposes, the
> borrowed character’s identity is considered the same as that of the
> character created by the original author.* *Do not create a separate name
> heading for the borrowed character.* Instead, assign the same heading
> that would have been assigned to the original work.
>
>
>
> 2.
>
>
>
> H 1790 Literature: Fiction Special provisions. Section 4. Character(s)
> (emphasis mine)
>
>
>
> Note: Fictitious characters may be borrowed by an author from another
> author, or from another source, and used in the creation of a new work.*
> Assign the same heading to works by the original creator of the character
> and to works in which the character has been borrowed.*
>
>
>
> 3.
>
>
>
> I also think that the May PSD Editorial notes rejection of the following
> proposal is relevant
>
>
>
> Human Torch (Fictitious characters)
>
>
>
> "The Human Torch is a fictitious character that has various human
> identities over time. The Human Torch himself may have changed his looks
> over time, but it was still the same character. It is therefore not a group
> of fictitious characters according to LCSH, but a single one, which should
> be established in the name authority file as a pseudonym used by several
> persons. The proposal was not approved."
>
>
>
> Thus--I gather by extension from subjects to names that LC's intent is to
> lump all iterations of a fictional character (e.g. Holmes as envisioned by
> Doyle, Moffat and whoever created Elementary) into a single authority
> record. Thus I see justification for the 400s/670s you bring up.
>
>
>
> As to a 500 between a fictional character and the person on whom they are
> based. I find no statements on that practice one way or the other. That's
> my (admittedly long) 3 cents.
>
>
>
> best,
>
>
> Netanel Ganin
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Metadata Coordinator -- Hebrew Specialty
>
> Brandeis University
>
> (781) 736-4645 / [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
> My pronouns are he/him/his
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 12:57 PM, Stephen Hearn <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Is there a relationship between Christopher Milne the person and
> Christopher Robin the character? If so, would you express it or not, and
> how?
>
>
>
> There's no expressed relationship between "Alice (Fictitious character
> from Carroll)" and "Hargreaves, Alice Pleasance Liddell, 1852-1934" in
> their authorities.  On the other hand, there is a 400 for "Fairchild,
> Alice, Lady (Fictitious character)", the version of Alice which Alan Moore
> presents in Lost girls, in the authority for "Alice (Fictitious character
> from Carroll)". The Moore version of Dorothy Gale has a 400 on the "Gale,
> Dorothy (Fictitious character)" authority; and the authority for "Darling,
> Wendy (Fictitious character)" appears to go further down this rabbit hole.
>
>
>
> Stephen
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:08 AM, Netanel Ganin <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> I concur with my esteemed colleague Ann, and am emboldened by same from
> Pete and Benjamin.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your thoughts, all.
>
>
> Netanel Ganin
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Metadata Coordinator -- Hebrew Specialty
>
> Brandeis University
>
> (781) 736-4645 / [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
> My pronouns are he/him/his
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:27 AM, Benjamin A Abrahamse <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> I think Ann is correct, inasmuch as the name “Christopher Robin” is
> derived
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Robin#Christopher_Robin_Milne>
> from “Christopher Robin Milne” it should be: 100 0\ $a Christopher Robin $c
> (Fictional character).
>
>
>
> And since this has escaped people’s attention, add a “see” ref.: 400 1\ $a
> Robin, Christopher $c (Fictional character).
>
>
>
> --Ben
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> GOV] *On Behalf Of *Ann Kardos
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 19, 2016 10:51 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: [PCCLIST] Christopher Robin
>
>
>
> All,
>
> I agree that Christipher Robin should likely be made distinct.  My
> understanding is with the previous responder that RDA allows us to
> unambiguously describe entities that may not have been described
> previously.  But here's my question...  Is Robin his last name?  I always
> thought his name was being used like first and middle, as if my mother were
> calling me Ann Marie vs. Ann.
>
> Anyway, Christopher Robin stars in several books, several movies, and with
> Disney, who knows what else he may feature in.  Shouldn't he be given a
> name of his own?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Julian Everett Allgood <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Dear Pete and Netanel :
>
> Hi -- I may be completely off-base on this and if so, I will rely on our
> colleagues to quickly set me straight (smile!).
>
> But to my understanding of the AACR2 and RDA Cataloging Standards, this
> question of whether or not a given Entity (in this case, the fictitious
> character Christopher Robin) is "eligible" for a NACO Name Authority Record
> is really critical.
>
> With AACR2 and its emphasis on describing Items, NACO Catalogers relied
> largely upon "bibliographic warrant" in order to establish names, titles,
> subjects, geographic areas, etc. That is, there needed to be a
> bibliographic resource libraries would be interested in acquiring for their
> collections in order for a NACO or SACO Cataloger to create a Name or
> Subject Authority Record for an Entity.
>
> One of the things that RDA has done very well (in my opinion) is to
> discard the "Bibliographic Warrant" prerequisite for NACO & SACO
> Identifiers. In doing so, RDA has expanded the universe of Entities
> eligible to be described unambiguously within controlled language
> vocabularies. And this is critical as libraries and the Information
> Community moves forward.
>
> Whereas AACR2 was almost exclusively concerned with Item descriptions, the
> primary focus of RDA (again, IMHO) is upon Entities and the Relationships
> between and among those Entities. If any conceivable Entity (and its
> Relationships) is now eligible for description within our Bibliographic and
> Authority files, then we as Librarians and players within the Information
> Landscape must be able to Identify each of those Entities uniquely and
> unambiguously, right?
>
> Getting back to our "Christopher Robin" example, Users and Information
> Consumers need to be able to quickly and easily distinguish between:
>
> Robin, Christopher, $d 1908-
>
> Robin, Christopher, $d 1953-
>
> Robin, Christopher, $c (Fictitious character)
>
> ... as well as Christopher Robin -- the author of the 2004 work, *Flung, *and
> all of the Christopher Robins who have lived but may not yet be established
> within the world's assorted Authority Files. And of course, all of those
> Christopher Robins not yet born.
>
> As you can probably by this point tell, I believe that the RDA approach to
> NACO Entity Descriptions is wise. And that yes indeed, Christopher Robin,
> the fictitious character is eligible for a Name Entity Identifier.
>
> my two cents,
>
> Everett Allgood
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 8:30 AM, Netanel Ganin <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the thoughts Pete, I was mostly concerned that there was some
> pressing 'Official' reason that subject had been used (though having
> checked LC's own catalog [which I should've done before] I see that though
> the heading is on at least one DLC record, it isn't in LC's catalog)
>
>
>
> best,
>
>
> Netanel Ganin
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Metadata Coordinator -- Hebrew Specialty
>
> Brandeis University
>
> (781) 736-4645 / [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
> My pronouns are he/him/his
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Wilson, Pete <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> I agree that Christopher Robin is not Christopher Milne.
>
>
>
> My only question is:  do we really need a fictitious character heading for
> Christopher Robin?  We don’t make one for every fictitious character.  The
> dubious assertion that certain books were fiction about the real-life
> Christopher Milne seems to have been thought by at least one cataloger to
> have been of interest for cataloging purposes, but I’m not sure there’s a
> call for a heading for Christopher Robin the fictitious character, unless
> he has been a character in some non-Pooh-related books, or a subject of
> nonfiction books.  Which may well be.
>
>
>
> Pete Wilson
>
> Vanderbilt University
>
>
>
> *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> GOV] *On Behalf Of *Netanel Ganin
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 18, 2016 8:29 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* [PCCLIST] Christopher Robin
>
>
>
> Greetings PCC,
>
>
>
> While cataloging a Winnie-the-Pooh Hebrew translation, I ran into an
> oddity. I wanted to run it by some wisdom lest I run afoul of an
> established practice.
>
>
>
> I note that there are a few records in OCLC for Winnie-the-Pooh related
> resources which have a subject heading of
>
>
>
> *600 1 0 Milne, Christopher 1920-1996. Juvenile fiction*
>
>
>
> (Indeed, the OCLC record I was working from had the same heading)
>
>
>
> It seems to this cataloger that Christopher Robin, though based on the
> actual son of A.A. Milne, is a distinct person in his own right and his
> appearances in fiction are not simply fictionalized appearances of
> Christopher Milne.
>
>
>
> Compare with
>
>
>
> *Alice (Fictitious character from Carroll) *and
>
>
>
> *Hargreaves, Alice Pleasance Liddell, 1852-1934*
>
>
>
> Here the distinction has been drawn between a fictional character which
> shares a name with, and is based on, an actual person.
>
> ----
>
>
>
> So what say you O Best Beloved, am I justified in creating:
>
>
>
> *Robin, Christopher (Fictitious character)*? (actual AAP may vary)
>
>
>
> best,
>
>
> Netanel Ganin
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Metadata Coordinator -- Hebrew Specialty
>
> Brandeis University
>
> (781) 736-4645 / [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
> My pronouns are he/him/his
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *************************
>
> Everett Allgood
> Authorities Librarian & Principal Serials Cataloger
> New York University Libraries
> [log in to unmask]
> 212 998 2488
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Ann Kardos*
>
> Metadata & Resource Sharing Coordinator
>
> Brandeis University
>
> Library & Technology Services
>
> [log in to unmask]
>
> 781.736.4649
>
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> --
>
> Stephen Hearn, Metadata Strategist
>
> Data Management & Access, University Libraries
>
> University of Minnesota
>
> 160 Wilson Library
>
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>
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>
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