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I have also read Bob's book, RDA 6.27.3 and other parts of it, along with
the LC-PSSs that seem to be relevant. And I know this discussion has been
gone over many times.

So a question or two.  Does any linguistic expression fit into the
definition of WEMI, and its idea of "expression"?  Even including the
original language?  For instance is Cicero, Marcus Tullius. Brutus. Latin
correct.  Or is in the linguistic qualifier only allowed unless it (1) is a
qualifier and/or (2) the language is qualified by "other qualifications"
such as the translator, series, etc.

I may in the past have sort of indicated a hybrid "work/expression."  I
only suggested that because in the work used in the instructions given in
the LC Cataloging workshop (slides) there is a work English = Spanish; the
700s are represented by the English title as a work in form but also *functions
*as an expression.

I have seen some Work authority records with 377 filled in.  Can we fill
out the 377 for Work authority records.

In the past, it is too bad that some ILSs did not or could not translate
the fields and *the indicators. *  For instance 700 12 = work is contained
in or contains....

I also read the PCC task group report in 2012/ rev. 2013 on expressions; it
has not been acted on.

Confused.  Again.  Need help.

Thanks.

Gene Fieg

On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 1:14 PM, Yang Wang <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Bob,
>
>
>
> Thanks a lot for your timely and detailed advice as always! I have just
> re-read the relevant section of your Handbook (p. 461-468) and now feel
> more confident about how to use these terms in authority records. As for
> bib records, I am still not on *terra firma*.
>
>
>
> Stephen,
>
>
>
> Interesting and fair enough. But if the combination of the Name/Title
> entries (100/245) in the bib itself could stand for the larger “work” of
> which the first 700 is a constituent, where would we find the larger unit
> of expression for the 2nd 700? Also in this namesake combination?
>
>
>
> Yang
>
>
>
> *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> GOV] *On Behalf Of *Stephen Hearn
> *Sent:* Friday, March 31, 2017 2:21 PM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: [PCCLIST] Container of/Contained in
>
>
>
>
>
> The "Container of" relationships in RDA are limiting in both directions.
> That means that in the case cited:
>
>
>
> 700 12 $i Container of (work): $a Macken, JoAnn Early, $d 1953- $t Mail
> carrier.
>
> 700 12 $i Container of (expression): $a Macken, JoAnn Early, $d 1953- $t
> Mail carrier. $l Spanish
>
>
>
> the first 700 is referencing a work contained in a work, and the second is
> referencing an expression contained in an expression.
>
>
>
> What is the work AAP and what is the expression AAP by which the subject
> of each of these 700 statements would be represented in RDF?
>
>
>
> (The LC-PCC PS also gives us:
>
>
>
> 100 1  $a Macken, JoAnn Early, $d 1953-
>
> 245 10 $a Mail carrier = $b El cartero / $c JoAnn Early Macken.
>
>
>
> if that helps.)
>
>
>
> Stephen
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 12:51 PM, Robert Maxwell <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> This is one case where in my opinion it would be best not to mix WEMI
> levels *in authority records*.
>
>
>
> However, since *bib records* may contain aspects of all WEMI levels,
> recording “container” relationships to different WEMI entities (i.e., work
> or expression) is probably unavoidable, especially if you do something like
> the example of LC practice in LC/PCC PS 6.27.3:
>
>
>
> 700 12 $i Container of (work): $a Macken, JoAnn Early, $d 1953- $t Mail
> carrier.
>
> 700 12 $i Container of (expression): $a Macken, JoAnn Early, $d 1953- $t
> Mail carrier. $l Spanish
>
>
>
> In spite of what some have speculated recently on this list, the
> authorized access point in the first 700 field above is, and is only, an
> authorized access point for a work. It is not also an authorized access
> point for an expression (the English expression or any other expression).
> RDA does not recognize “hybrid” authorized access points that can represent
> different entities (e.g. both a work and an expression).
>
>
>
> So in this case, if you’re going to follow LC practice for this bilingual
> text, you have no choice but to give one relationship between the resource
> described in the bib record and a *work*, and another relationship
> between the resource described in the bib record and an *expression*.
>
>
>
> Here are some examples of “container of (work)” and “container of
> (expression)” in current authority records:
>
>
>
> Authority record representing a work:
>
>
>
> 1001 Tolkien, J. R. R. ǂq (John Ronald Reuel), ǂd 1892-1973. ǂt Lord of
> the rings
>
> 370  ǂg Great Britain ǂ2 naf
>
> 380  Novels ǂa Fantasy fiction ǂa Epic fiction ǂ2 lcgft
>
> 380  Trilogy
>
> 4001 Tolkien, J. R. R. ǂq (John Ronald Reuel), ǂd 1892-1973. ǂt Magic ring
>
> 5001 ǂi Container of (work): ǂa Tolkien, J. R. R. ǂq (John Ronald Reuel),
> ǂd 1892-1973. ǂt Fellowship of the ring ǂw r
>
> 5001 ǂi Container of (work): ǂa Tolkien, J. R. R. ǂq (John Ronald Reuel),
> ǂd 1892-1973. ǂt Two towers ǂw r
>
> 5001 ǂi Container of (work): ǂa Tolkien, J. R. R. ǂq (John Ronald Reuel),
> ǂd 1892-1973. ǂt Return of the king ǂw r
>
> 5001 ǂi Sequel to: ǂa Tolkien, J. R. R. ǂq (John Ronald Reuel), ǂd
> 1892-1973. ǂt Hobbit ǂw r
>
>
>
> Authority record representing an expression:
>
>
>
> 1001 Asimov, Isaac, ǂd 1920-1992. ǂt Bicentennial man and other stories.
> ǂl Spanish ǂs (Bofill)
>
> 377  spa
>
> 381  Bofill
>
> 4001 Asimov, Isaac, ǂd 1920-1992. ǂt Hombre de bicentenario (Anthology)
>
> 5001 ǂi Container of (expression): ǂa Asimov, Isaac, ǂd 1920-1992. ǂt
> Prime of life. ǂl Spanish ǂs (Bofill) ǂw r
>
> 5001 ǂi Container of (expression): ǂa Asimov, Isaac, ǂd 1920-1992. ǂt
> Feminine intuition. ǂl Spanish ǂs (Bofill) ǂw r
>
> 5001 ǂi Container of (expression): ǂa Asimov, Isaac, ǂd 1920-1992. ǂt
> Waterclap. ǂl Spanish ǂs (Bofill) ǂw r
>
> 5001 ǂi Container of (expression): ǂa Asimov, Isaac, ǂd 1920-1992. ǂt That
> Thou art mindful of him. ǂl Spanish ǂs (Bofill) ǂw r
>
> 5001 ǂi Container of (expression): ǂa Asimov, Isaac, ǂd 1920-1992. ǂt
> Stranger in Paradise. ǂl Spanish ǂs (Bofill) ǂw r
>
> 5001 ǂi Container of (expression): ǂa Asimov, Isaac, ǂd 1920-1992. ǂt Life
> and times of Multivac. ǂl Spanish ǂs (Bofill) ǂw r
>
> 5001 ǂi Container of (expression): ǂa Asimov, Isaac, ǂd 1920-1992. ǂt
> Winnowing. ǂl Spanish ǂs (Bofill) ǂw r
>
> 5001 ǂi Container of (expression): ǂa Asimov, Isaac, ǂd 1920-1992. ǂt
> Bicentennial man. ǂl Spanish ǂs (Bofill) ǂw r
>
> 5001 ǂi Container of (expression): ǂa Asimov, Isaac, ǂd 1920-1992. ǂt
> Marching in. ǂl Spanish ǂs (Bofill) ǂw r
>
> 5001 ǂi Container of (expression): ǂa Asimov, Isaac, ǂd 1920-1992. ǂt
> Old-fashioned. ǂl Spanish ǂs (Bofill) ǂw r
>
> 5001 ǂi Container of (expression): ǂa Asimov, Isaac, ǂd 1920-1992. ǂt
> Tercentenary incident. ǂl Spanish ǂs (Bofill) ǂw r
>
> 5001 ǂi Container of (expression): ǂa Asimov, Isaac, ǂd 1920-1992. ǂt
> Birth of a notion. ǂl Spanish ǂs (Bofill) ǂw r
>
> 5001 ǂi Translator: ǂa Bofill, Mireia ǂw r
>
>
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> Robert L. Maxwell
> Ancient Languages and Special Collections Librarian
> 6728 Harold B. Lee Library
> Brigham Young University
> Provo, UT 84602
> (801)422-5568 <(801)%20422-5568>
>
>
>
> *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> gov] *On Behalf Of *Yang Wang
> *Sent:* Friday, March 31, 2017 10:29 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Container of/Contained in
>
>
>
> About 10 days ago,  Adam sent us some really good examples “showing
> multiple creators OR one creator with different role roles” (March 20, [PCCLIST]
> Question about use of RDA relators in authority records).  It’s great to
> see how such designators are used there to clarify relationships (thus,
> primed for linked data). In the same spirit, now I need some collective
> wisdom and advice on how relationship designators “Container of (work)” and
> “Contained in (work)” should be used in authority records as well in
> bibliographic records. Here are my questions:
>
>
>
> 1) Current predominant use of designators in AAPs: 7XX X2 $i Container of
> (…) in bibs (but rarely 7XX Xb  $i Contained in (…)). Where could the
> reciprocal relationship be recorded? 774?
>
> 2) When we see a single or multiple instances of Container of (expression)
> in 7XX, what is the nature of the “container” itself, expression or work?
>
> 3) Mixed designators in a single bib ($i Container of (work) + $i
> Container of (expression), etc.), which, conceptually speaking, point to
> different containers. Or, is the term “container” used loosely here to
> refer to “the piece in hand” (could  it be, really?!).
>
> 4) In authority records, such relationships (work to work, expression to
> expression) can be recorded clearly with whole/part designators (J.2.4,
> J.3.4), without mixing WEMI entities and causing confusion. What is PCC’s
> best practice? Examples?
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
>
> Yang
>
> PUL
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Stephen Hearn, Metadata Strategist
>
> Data Management & Access, University Libraries
>
> University of Minnesota
>
> 160 Wilson Library
>
> 309 19th Avenue South
>
> Minneapolis, MN 55455
>
> Ph: 612-625-2328 <(612)%20625-2328>
>
> Fx: 612-625-3428 <(612)%20625-3428>
>
> ORCID:  0000-0002-3590-1242
>