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>>While I appreciate all the research and discussion, the essential method is
still your ears.  <<


For us that's absolutely true as well -- the ears are the starting point, but also need to have the final say. We use the keyboard for a starting reference pitch, if needed, especially after elongated periods of working with many different recordings, but never to follow along etc. And, of course, it's not just about hearing pitch, but knowing when the recorded sound of the sung voices and instruments are jiving with how they work naturally -- since, after all, these were humans interacting with their instruments (one also has to know about the instruments of the time, of course).


 Izotope RX5 is now on our purchasing list!


Thanks,

Mark


Mark Bailey, head
Historical Sound Recordings
Irving S. Gilmore Music Library
Yale University
[log in to unmask]


________________________________
From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of John Haley <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 10:43 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm

Sliding pitch is very easily fixed now on Izotope RX5.  It's a snap.

While I appreciate all the research and discussion, the essential method is
still your ears.  I have no difficulty distinguishing pitch errors as small
as half a percent (.5) and have done my own presets on Izotope down to that
amount, and even .2 (point two) where more fine tuning is needed.  If you
can play along with something on the electronic keyboard, even with one
finger, the direction that the pitch needs to be adjusted becomes really
obvious.  It becomes quite objective, not subjective.  I think being able
to do this easily is just a matter of listening and practice.

The gadgets and guidelines should all be used as an aid, not as the final
word.

Best,
John


On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 9:22 AM, Bailey, Mark <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Dear All,
>
>
> I also want to offer my thanks, mostly as an observer, for this important
> and interesting conversation. Just yesterday in the Yale Historical Sound
> Recordings studio I was having to adjust the speed of two Vladimir de
> Pachmann 12" 78s -- one higher and the other lower (two different recording
> companies). And there are times, working with early 7" or 10" recordings of
> singers, that playing something at 78rpms is almost overwhelmingly the
> exception, rather than the rule.
>
>
> In the Yale HSR studio we use several factors to determine pitch, which in
> some cases -- as has been acknowledged in this thread -- involves degrees
> of instinct and guesswork. Since I'm also a professional conductor and
> performer, I rely heavily on my own ears and knowledge of performance
> practice, but also with the help of an in-studio keyboard that is usually
> fixed at A=440, but can be adjusted to any pitch level as needed (and also
> has the option of several temperaments, which comes in handy for
> baroque-period instrument listening instruction). It is incredibly helpful
> to remember, of course, as others will point out, that A=440 wasn't
> standard everywhere at the turn of the century (even though many who do
> digital transfers default to it) -- Nellie Melba being a case and point --
> and also, at least when it comes to singers, a fair number would transpose
> up or down a step or even a half step depending on the aria and vocal
> circumstances.
>
>
> As best we can in the Yale studio, we also try to take these factors into
> account. As for recordings that change pitch during the course of a side,
> some of the newer technical information offered here has also been quite
> interesting.
>
>
> All best wishes
>
>
> Mark Bailey, head
> Historical Sound Recordings
> Irving S. Gilmore Music Library
> Yale University
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <
> [log in to unmask]> on behalf of Corey Bailey <
> [log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 8:45 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
>
> The original question was posted from someone in the US. So yes, all of
> the (very interesting) answers were based on "US-centered" speeds.
>
> Corey
> Corey Bailey Audio Engineering
> www.baileyzone.net<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.baileyzone.net&d=DwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=951BIhm_S_xT_hJlCWG6le5HUwYfuQaYiiNjkZyEHaM&m=vP2W26Fj23vKsKhQZCL0qR5WIXeDt1d2XF2d7jzBjIE&s=r2Y1XaMZ7wh7D4l42kn0vBk76kjsHwlvR9-srBBi8B8&e= >
> Family Audio Preservation - Audio Engineering<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.baileyzone.net_&d=DwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=951BIhm_S_xT_hJlCWG6le5HUwYfuQaYiiNjkZyEHaM&m=vP2W26Fj23vKsKhQZCL0qR5WIXeDt1d2XF2d7jzBjIE&s=GI_WC7uZP1L3NVqef9xI3kf4g9AjimgaxkCuIMpqfB8&e= >
> www.baileyzone.net<http://www.baileyzone.net>
> The purpose of this site is to raise awareness about the need to archive
> audio and video recordings which contain your family history. Of prime
> importance is ...
>
>
>
>
> On 4/24/2017 3:42 PM, George Brock-Nannestad wrote:
> > From: Patent Tactics, George Brock-Nannestad
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > all very US-centered, isn't it? The 78.26 comes from a certain number of
> poles
> > in a synchronous motor combined with simple ratios in the gearbox that
> changes
> > the rpm from the motor to the target rpm for the turntable. But it is
> only this
> > figure at 60 Hz mains frequency. If you had a slow-speed synchronous
> motor run
> > off 60 Hz the closest to 78.00 is 78.26 rpm. If you use a stroboscope
> for 60 Hz
> > under a 120 Hz light (goes for fluorescent or low-power incandescent
> lamps off
> > the mains), you can only get a stationary ring at 78.26.
> >
> > In the not insignificant parts of the world where they use 50 Hz as the
> mains
> > frequency, the corresponding figure would be 77.92 rpm. You need a
> different
> > stroboscope for this and also the slow-speed synchronous motor would
> have a
> > different number of poles. Aida Favia-Artsay knew, and her Caruso
> stroboscopes
> > came in both varieties.
> >
> > The Victor Talking Machine Company is on record in the acoustic period as
> > specifying 76 rpm for recording and 78 rpm for reproduction of the
> recording
> > obtained. Some of their customers obviously did not have absolute pitch.
> In the
> > acoustic period of the Gramophone Company, the speed was checked every
> morning
> > by means of a piece of cigarette paper under the wax while cutting and
> counting
> > the revolutions for a minute. They preferred 78 rpm!
> >
> > In the United Kingdom, the Old Philharmonic Pitch (which corresponded to
> an a4
> > of 452 Hz (give or take a few) survived in the military bands until ca.
> 1926,
> > when they also changed to the New Philharmonic Pitch at 439 Hz. If you
> hear
> > Nellie Melba sing accompanied by the Band of the Coldstream Guards in
> 1905 with
> > the key indicated, you can pitch it absolutely correctly when you play
> it: they
> > used the Old Philharmonic Pitch. Columbia recorded a lot of military
> bands, and
> > they abandoned the 80 rpm speed for 78 rpm at around the same time the
> bands
> > changed tuning. The interesting thing is that the fraction 78/80 is very
> nearly
> > the same as the fraction 439/452, in other words if you played a
> Columbia band
> > record in 1932 you would not know whether it was an early recording
> slowed down
> > to 78 or whether it was actually a new recording with the new pitch and
> the new
> > speed. This is what I habitually in my workshops call "the dialectic
> triangle:
> > speed, key, and standard pitch".
> >
> > I rarely comment these days, but this issue is very important.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> >
> > George
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >> 78.26 did not become a standard speed until electric motors were used in
> >> cutter and playback turntables. In the acoustic era, 78 usually meant
> 78.00.
> >> But, if you´re using a modern turntable like, say, a Technics SP-15, 78
> >> actually is 78.26, and the percentage of change must be calculated from
> >> that.
> >>
> >> Gary
> >>
> >> ____________________________
> >>
> >> Gary Galo
> >> Audio Engineer Emeritus
> >> The Crane School of Music
> >> SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676
> >>
> >> "Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener."
> >> Arnold Schoenberg
> >>
> >> "A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be believed."
> >> Igor Markevitch
> >>
> >> From: DAVID BURNHAM [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> >> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 6:05 PM
> >> To: Gary A. Galo
> >> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
> >>
> >> That's fine, but the standard speed for 78s IS 78.26; I don't know if
> 80RPM
> >> records included a fraction.  LPs, of course are always based on 33 1/3
> RPM,
> >> so there would be no reason to relate anything to 33.00 RPM.  I'm sure
> the
> >> original question was searching for a corrective adjustment to adapt
> from
> >> standard 78 to Columbia's 80 RPM, but that's only a guess.
> >>
> >> db
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Monday, April 24, 2017 5:56 PM, Gary A. Galo
> >> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>  wrote:
> >>
> >> I specifically said 78.00 in my reply. I assumed that if you meant
> 78.26, you
> >> would have said so.
> >>
> >> Gary
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
> >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
> On Behalf
> >> Of DAVID BURNHAM
> >> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 4:44 PM
> >> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
> >>
> >> Are you basing that on 78.00 RPM or 78.26 RPM?
> >> Not challenging you just a question.
> >> db
> >>
> >>      On Monday, April 24, 2017 4:18 PM, Gary A. Galo
> >> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> A quarter tone is 3%, a half tone is 6%, and a whole tone is 12%. So,
> the
> >> difference between 78.00 and 80 is just a hair under a quarter tone. A
> quarter
> >> tone would be 80.34; a half tone is 82.68..
> >>
> >> Gary
> >>
> >> ____________________________
> >>
> >> Gary Galo
> >> Audio Engineer Emeritus
> >> The Crane School of Music
> >> SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676
> >>
> >> "Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener."
> >> Arnold Schoenberg
> >>
> >> "A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be believed."
> >> Igor Markevitch
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
> >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
> On Behalf
> >> Of James Roth
> >> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 3:31 PM
> >> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >> Subject: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
> >>
> >> Hello everybody,
> >>
> >> Can anyone tell me how many half-tones up from 78 rpm to 80 rpm?
> >>
> >> Thanks.
> >> Ben Roth
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>