 |
 |
For tape speed correction I use the RX5 spectrum analyzer and find points where the piano or oboe is playing an A4 or a D2 or D3 (which produce a strong A harmonic). If it's a guitar it's much tougher - even if the tuning is exact neck-bend will create small deviations (2Hz at 440 is not uncommon) but these are almost invariably going sharp. Spot checking at various points will yield a good sense of what the trend line is. We have the bias to look at as well to get a sense of the general direction and percentage of the curve, but video sync is sometimes visible, as is hum. A small deviation like 1Hz at 440 might seem small but hearing a unison on a piano where one of three strings is off by that amount is obviously wrong, in fact one beat in 4 seconds on a unison is "wet" and that's roughly 0.25 Hz. The Who's "Won't Get Fooled Again" drops from A440 to A438 over 8 minutes and the difference at the "meet the new boss" is clearly audible as a change in energy, even a slight shift away from exuberant toward ironic in the vocal. The identical percentage change can be seen in the bias trace played on a servo machine, so it's in the recording, and there's no way it's intentional. Roughly the 0.5% referred to here. In anecdotal testing it's possible for some drummers to hear slow wow of a little over 0.1% as a groove disruption, Jim Keltner nailed that on "Mississippi Queen". By ear against a keyboard is pretty coarse compared to a long window FFT. Jamie Howarth Please pardon the mispellings and occassional insane word substitution I'm on an iPhone > On Apr 25, 2017, at 07:43, John Haley <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Sliding pitch is very easily fixed now on Izotope RX5. It's a snap. > > While I appreciate all the research and discussion, the essential method is > still your ears. I have no difficulty distinguishing pitch errors as small > as half a percent (.5) and have done my own presets on Izotope down to that > amount, and even .2 (point two) where more fine tuning is needed. If you > can play along with something on the electronic keyboard, even with one > finger, the direction that the pitch needs to be adjusted becomes really > obvious. It becomes quite objective, not subjective. I think being able > to do this easily is just a matter of listening and practice. > > The gadgets and guidelines should all be used as an aid, not as the final > word. > > Best, > John > > >> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 9:22 AM, Bailey, Mark <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >> Dear All, >> >> >> I also want to offer my thanks, mostly as an observer, for this important >> and interesting conversation. Just yesterday in the Yale Historical Sound >> Recordings studio I was having to adjust the speed of two Vladimir de >> Pachmann 12" 78s -- one higher and the other lower (two different recording >> companies). And there are times, working with early 7" or 10" recordings of >> singers, that playing something at 78rpms is almost overwhelmingly the >> exception, rather than the rule. >> >> >> In the Yale HSR studio we use several factors to determine pitch, which in >> some cases -- as has been acknowledged in this thread -- involves degrees >> of instinct and guesswork. Since I'm also a professional conductor and >> performer, I rely heavily on my own ears and knowledge of performance >> practice, but also with the help of an in-studio keyboard that is usually >> fixed at A=440, but can be adjusted to any pitch level as needed (and also >> has the option of several temperaments, which comes in handy for >> baroque-period instrument listening instruction). It is incredibly helpful >> to remember, of course, as others will point out, that A=440 wasn't >> standard everywhere at the turn of the century (even though many who do >> digital transfers default to it) -- Nellie Melba being a case and point -- >> and also, at least when it comes to singers, a fair number would transpose >> up or down a step or even a half step depending on the aria and vocal >> circumstances. >> >> >> As best we can in the Yale studio, we also try to take these factors into >> account. As for recordings that change pitch during the course of a side, >> some of the newer technical information offered here has also been quite >> interesting. >> >> >> All best wishes >> >> >> Mark Bailey, head >> Historical Sound Recordings >> Irving S. Gilmore Music Library >> Yale University >> [log in to unmask] >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List < >> [log in to unmask]> on behalf of Corey Bailey < >> [log in to unmask]> >> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 8:45 PM >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm >> >> The original question was posted from someone in the US. So yes, all of >> the (very interesting) answers were based on "US-centered" speeds. >> >> Corey >> Corey Bailey Audio Engineering >> www.baileyzone.net<http://www.baileyzone.net> >> Family Audio Preservation - Audio Engineering<http://www.baileyzone.net/> >> www.baileyzone.net >> The purpose of this site is to raise awareness about the need to archive >> audio and video recordings which contain your family history. Of prime >> importance is ... >> >> >> >> >>> On 4/24/2017 3:42 PM, George Brock-Nannestad wrote: >>> From: Patent Tactics, George Brock-Nannestad >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> all very US-centered, isn't it? The 78.26 comes from a certain number of >> poles >>> in a synchronous motor combined with simple ratios in the gearbox that >> changes >>> the rpm from the motor to the target rpm for the turntable. But it is >> only this >>> figure at 60 Hz mains frequency. If you had a slow-speed synchronous >> motor run >>> off 60 Hz the closest to 78.00 is 78.26 rpm. If you use a stroboscope >> for 60 Hz >>> under a 120 Hz light (goes for fluorescent or low-power incandescent >> lamps off >>> the mains), you can only get a stationary ring at 78.26. >>> >>> In the not insignificant parts of the world where they use 50 Hz as the >> mains >>> frequency, the corresponding figure would be 77.92 rpm. You need a >> different >>> stroboscope for this and also the slow-speed synchronous motor would >> have a >>> different number of poles. Aida Favia-Artsay knew, and her Caruso >> stroboscopes >>> came in both varieties. >>> >>> The Victor Talking Machine Company is on record in the acoustic period as >>> specifying 76 rpm for recording and 78 rpm for reproduction of the >> recording >>> obtained. Some of their customers obviously did not have absolute pitch. >> In the >>> acoustic period of the Gramophone Company, the speed was checked every >> morning >>> by means of a piece of cigarette paper under the wax while cutting and >> counting >>> the revolutions for a minute. They preferred 78 rpm! >>> >>> In the United Kingdom, the Old Philharmonic Pitch (which corresponded to >> an a4 >>> of 452 Hz (give or take a few) survived in the military bands until ca. >> 1926, >>> when they also changed to the New Philharmonic Pitch at 439 Hz. If you >> hear >>> Nellie Melba sing accompanied by the Band of the Coldstream Guards in >> 1905 with >>> the key indicated, you can pitch it absolutely correctly when you play >> it: they >>> used the Old Philharmonic Pitch. Columbia recorded a lot of military >> bands, and >>> they abandoned the 80 rpm speed for 78 rpm at around the same time the >> bands >>> changed tuning. The interesting thing is that the fraction 78/80 is very >> nearly >>> the same as the fraction 439/452, in other words if you played a >> Columbia band >>> record in 1932 you would not know whether it was an early recording >> slowed down >>> to 78 or whether it was actually a new recording with the new pitch and >> the new >>> speed. This is what I habitually in my workshops call "the dialectic >> triangle: >>> speed, key, and standard pitch". >>> >>> I rarely comment these days, but this issue is very important. >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> >>> George >>> >>> --------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>>> 78.26 did not become a standard speed until electric motors were used in >>>> cutter and playback turntables. In the acoustic era, 78 usually meant >> 78.00. >>>> But, if you´re using a modern turntable like, say, a Technics SP-15, 78 >>>> actually is 78.26, and the percentage of change must be calculated from >>>> that. >>>> >>>> Gary >>>> >>>> ____________________________ >>>> >>>> Gary Galo >>>> Audio Engineer Emeritus >>>> The Crane School of Music >>>> SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676 >>>> >>>> "Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener." >>>> Arnold Schoenberg >>>> >>>> "A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be believed." >>>> Igor Markevitch >>>> >>>> From: DAVID BURNHAM [mailto:[log in to unmask]] >>>> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 6:05 PM >>>> To: Gary A. Galo >>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm >>>> >>>> That's fine, but the standard speed for 78s IS 78.26; I don't know if >> 80RPM >>>> records included a fraction. LPs, of course are always based on 33 1/3 >> RPM, >>>> so there would be no reason to relate anything to 33.00 RPM. I'm sure >> the >>>> original question was searching for a corrective adjustment to adapt >> from >>>> standard 78 to Columbia's 80 RPM, but that's only a guess. >>>> >>>> db >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Monday, April 24, 2017 5:56 PM, Gary A. Galo >>>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I specifically said 78.00 in my reply. I assumed that if you meant >> 78.26, you >>>> would have said so. >>>> >>>> Gary >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List >>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] >> On Behalf >>>> Of DAVID BURNHAM >>>> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 4:44 PM >>>> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm >>>> >>>> Are you basing that on 78.00 RPM or 78.26 RPM? >>>> Not challenging you just a question. >>>> db >>>> >>>> On Monday, April 24, 2017 4:18 PM, Gary A. Galo >>>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> A quarter tone is 3%, a half tone is 6%, and a whole tone is 12%. So, >> the >>>> difference between 78.00 and 80 is just a hair under a quarter tone. A >> quarter >>>> tone would be 80.34; a half tone is 82.68.. >>>> >>>> Gary >>>> >>>> ____________________________ >>>> >>>> Gary Galo >>>> Audio Engineer Emeritus >>>> The Crane School of Music >>>> SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676 >>>> >>>> "Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener." >>>> Arnold Schoenberg >>>> >>>> "A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be believed." >>>> Igor Markevitch >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List >>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] >> On Behalf >>>> Of James Roth >>>> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 3:31 PM >>>> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>>> Subject: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm >>>> >>>> Hello everybody, >>>> >>>> Can anyone tell me how many half-tones up from 78 rpm to 80 rpm? >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> Ben Roth >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>