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<< but knowing when the recorded sound of the sung voices and instruments are jiving with how they work naturally -- since, after all, these were humans interacting with their instruments (one also has to know about the instruments of the time, of course). >> I agree, totally. For example, on a solo violin recording, you can sometimes identify an open string. That t least gets you in the right key. Identifying the key something is performed in is a different exercise than getting the pitch right. But often that is obvious from the sound of a voice, for a song. Best, John On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 11:01 AM, Bailey, Mark <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > >>While I appreciate all the research and discussion, the essential method > is > still your ears. << > > > For us that's absolutely true as well -- the ears are the starting point, > but also need to have the final say. We use the keyboard for a starting > reference pitch, if needed, especially after elongated periods of working > with many different recordings, but never to follow along etc. And, of > course, it's not just about hearing pitch, but knowing when the recorded > sound of the sung voices and instruments are jiving with how they work > naturally -- since, after all, these were humans interacting with their > instruments (one also has to know about the instruments of the time, of > course). > > > Izotope RX5 is now on our purchasing list! > > > Thanks, > > Mark > > > Mark Bailey, head > Historical Sound Recordings > Irving S. Gilmore Music Library > Yale University > [log in to unmask] > > > ________________________________ > From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List < > [log in to unmask]> on behalf of John Haley <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 10:43 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm > > Sliding pitch is very easily fixed now on Izotope RX5. It's a snap. > > While I appreciate all the research and discussion, the essential method is > still your ears. I have no difficulty distinguishing pitch errors as small > as half a percent (.5) and have done my own presets on Izotope down to that > amount, and even .2 (point two) where more fine tuning is needed. If you > can play along with something on the electronic keyboard, even with one > finger, the direction that the pitch needs to be adjusted becomes really > obvious. It becomes quite objective, not subjective. I think being able > to do this easily is just a matter of listening and practice. > > The gadgets and guidelines should all be used as an aid, not as the final > word. > > Best, > John > > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 9:22 AM, Bailey, Mark <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > > Dear All, > > > > > > I also want to offer my thanks, mostly as an observer, for this important > > and interesting conversation. Just yesterday in the Yale Historical Sound > > Recordings studio I was having to adjust the speed of two Vladimir de > > Pachmann 12" 78s -- one higher and the other lower (two different > recording > > companies). And there are times, working with early 7" or 10" recordings > of > > singers, that playing something at 78rpms is almost overwhelmingly the > > exception, rather than the rule. > > > > > > In the Yale HSR studio we use several factors to determine pitch, which > in > > some cases -- as has been acknowledged in this thread -- involves degrees > > of instinct and guesswork. Since I'm also a professional conductor and > > performer, I rely heavily on my own ears and knowledge of performance > > practice, but also with the help of an in-studio keyboard that is usually > > fixed at A=440, but can be adjusted to any pitch level as needed (and > also > > has the option of several temperaments, which comes in handy for > > baroque-period instrument listening instruction). It is incredibly > helpful > > to remember, of course, as others will point out, that A=440 wasn't > > standard everywhere at the turn of the century (even though many who do > > digital transfers default to it) -- Nellie Melba being a case and point > -- > > and also, at least when it comes to singers, a fair number would > transpose > > up or down a step or even a half step depending on the aria and vocal > > circumstances. > > > > > > As best we can in the Yale studio, we also try to take these factors into > > account. As for recordings that change pitch during the course of a side, > > some of the newer technical information offered here has also been quite > > interesting. > > > > > > All best wishes > > > > > > Mark Bailey, head > > Historical Sound Recordings > > Irving S. Gilmore Music Library > > Yale University > > [log in to unmask] > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List < > > [log in to unmask]> on behalf of Corey Bailey < > > [log in to unmask]> > > Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 8:45 PM > > To: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm > > > > The original question was posted from someone in the US. So yes, all of > > the (very interesting) answers were based on "US-centered" speeds. > > > > Corey > > Corey Bailey Audio Engineering > > www.baileyzone.net<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ > url?u=http-3A__www.baileyzone.net&d=DwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r= > 951BIhm_S_xT_hJlCWG6le5HUwYfuQaYiiNjkZyEHaM&m= > vP2W26Fj23vKsKhQZCL0qR5WIXeDt1d2XF2d7jzBjIE&s= > r2Y1XaMZ7wh7D4l42kn0vBk76kjsHwlvR9-srBBi8B8&e= > > > Family Audio Preservation - Audio Engineering<https:// > urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.baileyzone. > net_&d=DwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=951BIhm_S_xT_ > hJlCWG6le5HUwYfuQaYiiNjkZyEHaM&m=vP2W26Fj23vKsKhQZCL0qR5WIXeDt1 > d2XF2d7jzBjIE&s=GI_WC7uZP1L3NVqef9xI3kf4g9AjimgaxkCuIMpqfB8&e= > > > www.baileyzone.net<http://www.baileyzone.net> > > The purpose of this site is to raise awareness about the need to archive > > audio and video recordings which contain your family history. Of prime > > importance is ... > > > > > > > > > > On 4/24/2017 3:42 PM, George Brock-Nannestad wrote: > > > From: Patent Tactics, George Brock-Nannestad > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > all very US-centered, isn't it? The 78.26 comes from a certain number > of > > poles > > > in a synchronous motor combined with simple ratios in the gearbox that > > changes > > > the rpm from the motor to the target rpm for the turntable. But it is > > only this > > > figure at 60 Hz mains frequency. If you had a slow-speed synchronous > > motor run > > > off 60 Hz the closest to 78.00 is 78.26 rpm. If you use a stroboscope > > for 60 Hz > > > under a 120 Hz light (goes for fluorescent or low-power incandescent > > lamps off > > > the mains), you can only get a stationary ring at 78.26. > > > > > > In the not insignificant parts of the world where they use 50 Hz as the > > mains > > > frequency, the corresponding figure would be 77.92 rpm. You need a > > different > > > stroboscope for this and also the slow-speed synchronous motor would > > have a > > > different number of poles. Aida Favia-Artsay knew, and her Caruso > > stroboscopes > > > came in both varieties. > > > > > > The Victor Talking Machine Company is on record in the acoustic period > as > > > specifying 76 rpm for recording and 78 rpm for reproduction of the > > recording > > > obtained. Some of their customers obviously did not have absolute > pitch. > > In the > > > acoustic period of the Gramophone Company, the speed was checked every > > morning > > > by means of a piece of cigarette paper under the wax while cutting and > > counting > > > the revolutions for a minute. They preferred 78 rpm! > > > > > > In the United Kingdom, the Old Philharmonic Pitch (which corresponded > to > > an a4 > > > of 452 Hz (give or take a few) survived in the military bands until ca. > > 1926, > > > when they also changed to the New Philharmonic Pitch at 439 Hz. If you > > hear > > > Nellie Melba sing accompanied by the Band of the Coldstream Guards in > > 1905 with > > > the key indicated, you can pitch it absolutely correctly when you play > > it: they > > > used the Old Philharmonic Pitch. Columbia recorded a lot of military > > bands, and > > > they abandoned the 80 rpm speed for 78 rpm at around the same time the > > bands > > > changed tuning. The interesting thing is that the fraction 78/80 is > very > > nearly > > > the same as the fraction 439/452, in other words if you played a > > Columbia band > > > record in 1932 you would not know whether it was an early recording > > slowed down > > > to 78 or whether it was actually a new recording with the new pitch and > > the new > > > speed. This is what I habitually in my workshops call "the dialectic > > triangle: > > > speed, key, and standard pitch". > > > > > > I rarely comment these days, but this issue is very important. > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > > George > > > > > > --------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > >> 78.26 did not become a standard speed until electric motors were used > in > > >> cutter and playback turntables. In the acoustic era, 78 usually meant > > 78.00. > > >> But, if you´re using a modern turntable like, say, a Technics SP-15, > 78 > > >> actually is 78.26, and the percentage of change must be calculated > from > > >> that. > > >> > > >> Gary > > >> > > >> ____________________________ > > >> > > >> Gary Galo > > >> Audio Engineer Emeritus > > >> The Crane School of Music > > >> SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676 > > >> > > >> "Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener." > > >> Arnold Schoenberg > > >> > > >> "A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be believed." > > >> Igor Markevitch > > >> > > >> From: DAVID BURNHAM [mailto:[log in to unmask]] > > >> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 6:05 PM > > >> To: Gary A. Galo > > >> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm > > >> > > >> That's fine, but the standard speed for 78s IS 78.26; I don't know if > > 80RPM > > >> records included a fraction. LPs, of course are always based on 33 > 1/3 > > RPM, > > >> so there would be no reason to relate anything to 33.00 RPM. I'm sure > > the > > >> original question was searching for a corrective adjustment to adapt > > from > > >> standard 78 to Columbia's 80 RPM, but that's only a guess. > > >> > > >> db > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On Monday, April 24, 2017 5:56 PM, Gary A. Galo > > >> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: > > >> > > >> I specifically said 78.00 in my reply. I assumed that if you meant > > 78.26, you > > >> would have said so. > > >> > > >> Gary > > >> > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List > > >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] > > On Behalf > > >> Of DAVID BURNHAM > > >> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 4:44 PM > > >> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > >> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm > > >> > > >> Are you basing that on 78.00 RPM or 78.26 RPM? > > >> Not challenging you just a question. > > >> db > > >> > > >> On Monday, April 24, 2017 4:18 PM, Gary A. Galo > > >> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> A quarter tone is 3%, a half tone is 6%, and a whole tone is 12%. So, > > the > > >> difference between 78.00 and 80 is just a hair under a quarter tone. A > > quarter > > >> tone would be 80.34; a half tone is 82.68.. > > >> > > >> Gary > > >> > > >> ____________________________ > > >> > > >> Gary Galo > > >> Audio Engineer Emeritus > > >> The Crane School of Music > > >> SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676 > > >> > > >> "Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener." > > >> Arnold Schoenberg > > >> > > >> "A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be believed." > > >> Igor Markevitch > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List > > >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] > > On Behalf > > >> Of James Roth > > >> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 3:31 PM > > >> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > >> Subject: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm > > >> > > >> Hello everybody, > > >> > > >> Can anyone tell me how many half-tones up from 78 rpm to 80 rpm? > > >> > > >> Thanks. > > >> Ben Roth > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > >