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 << but knowing when the recorded sound of the sung voices and instruments
are jiving with how they work naturally -- since, after all, these were
humans interacting with their instruments (one also has to know about the
instruments of the time, of course). >>

I agree, totally.  For example, on a solo violin recording, you can
sometimes identify an open string.  That t least gets you in the right
key.  Identifying the key something is performed in is a different exercise
than getting the pitch right.  But often that is obvious from the sound of
a voice, for a song.

Best,
John

​


On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 11:01 AM, Bailey, Mark <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> >>While I appreciate all the research and discussion, the essential method
> is
> still your ears.  <<
>
>
> For us that's absolutely true as well -- the ears are the starting point,
> but also need to have the final say. We use the keyboard for a starting
> reference pitch, if needed, especially after elongated periods of working
> with many different recordings, but never to follow along etc. And, of
> course, it's not just about hearing pitch, but knowing when the recorded
> sound of the sung voices and instruments are jiving with how they work
> naturally -- since, after all, these were humans interacting with their
> instruments (one also has to know about the instruments of the time, of
> course).
>
>
>  Izotope RX5 is now on our purchasing list!
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark
>
>
> Mark Bailey, head
> Historical Sound Recordings
> Irving S. Gilmore Music Library
> Yale University
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <
> [log in to unmask]> on behalf of John Haley <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 10:43 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
>
> Sliding pitch is very easily fixed now on Izotope RX5.  It's a snap.
>
> While I appreciate all the research and discussion, the essential method is
> still your ears.  I have no difficulty distinguishing pitch errors as small
> as half a percent (.5) and have done my own presets on Izotope down to that
> amount, and even .2 (point two) where more fine tuning is needed.  If you
> can play along with something on the electronic keyboard, even with one
> finger, the direction that the pitch needs to be adjusted becomes really
> obvious.  It becomes quite objective, not subjective.  I think being able
> to do this easily is just a matter of listening and practice.
>
> The gadgets and guidelines should all be used as an aid, not as the final
> word.
>
> Best,
> John
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 9:22 AM, Bailey, Mark <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > Dear All,
> >
> >
> > I also want to offer my thanks, mostly as an observer, for this important
> > and interesting conversation. Just yesterday in the Yale Historical Sound
> > Recordings studio I was having to adjust the speed of two Vladimir de
> > Pachmann 12" 78s -- one higher and the other lower (two different
> recording
> > companies). And there are times, working with early 7" or 10" recordings
> of
> > singers, that playing something at 78rpms is almost overwhelmingly the
> > exception, rather than the rule.
> >
> >
> > In the Yale HSR studio we use several factors to determine pitch, which
> in
> > some cases -- as has been acknowledged in this thread -- involves degrees
> > of instinct and guesswork. Since I'm also a professional conductor and
> > performer, I rely heavily on my own ears and knowledge of performance
> > practice, but also with the help of an in-studio keyboard that is usually
> > fixed at A=440, but can be adjusted to any pitch level as needed (and
> also
> > has the option of several temperaments, which comes in handy for
> > baroque-period instrument listening instruction). It is incredibly
> helpful
> > to remember, of course, as others will point out, that A=440 wasn't
> > standard everywhere at the turn of the century (even though many who do
> > digital transfers default to it) -- Nellie Melba being a case and point
> --
> > and also, at least when it comes to singers, a fair number would
> transpose
> > up or down a step or even a half step depending on the aria and vocal
> > circumstances.
> >
> >
> > As best we can in the Yale studio, we also try to take these factors into
> > account. As for recordings that change pitch during the course of a side,
> > some of the newer technical information offered here has also been quite
> > interesting.
> >
> >
> > All best wishes
> >
> >
> > Mark Bailey, head
> > Historical Sound Recordings
> > Irving S. Gilmore Music Library
> > Yale University
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <
> > [log in to unmask]> on behalf of Corey Bailey <
> > [log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 8:45 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
> >
> > The original question was posted from someone in the US. So yes, all of
> > the (very interesting) answers were based on "US-centered" speeds.
> >
> > Corey
> > Corey Bailey Audio Engineering
> > www.baileyzone.net<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/
> url?u=http-3A__www.baileyzone.net&d=DwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=
> 951BIhm_S_xT_hJlCWG6le5HUwYfuQaYiiNjkZyEHaM&m=
> vP2W26Fj23vKsKhQZCL0qR5WIXeDt1d2XF2d7jzBjIE&s=
> r2Y1XaMZ7wh7D4l42kn0vBk76kjsHwlvR9-srBBi8B8&e= >
> > Family Audio Preservation - Audio Engineering<https://
> urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.baileyzone.
> net_&d=DwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=951BIhm_S_xT_
> hJlCWG6le5HUwYfuQaYiiNjkZyEHaM&m=vP2W26Fj23vKsKhQZCL0qR5WIXeDt1
> d2XF2d7jzBjIE&s=GI_WC7uZP1L3NVqef9xI3kf4g9AjimgaxkCuIMpqfB8&e= >
> > www.baileyzone.net<http://www.baileyzone.net>
> > The purpose of this site is to raise awareness about the need to archive
> > audio and video recordings which contain your family history. Of prime
> > importance is ...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 4/24/2017 3:42 PM, George Brock-Nannestad wrote:
> > > From: Patent Tactics, George Brock-Nannestad
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > all very US-centered, isn't it? The 78.26 comes from a certain number
> of
> > poles
> > > in a synchronous motor combined with simple ratios in the gearbox that
> > changes
> > > the rpm from the motor to the target rpm for the turntable. But it is
> > only this
> > > figure at 60 Hz mains frequency. If you had a slow-speed synchronous
> > motor run
> > > off 60 Hz the closest to 78.00 is 78.26 rpm. If you use a stroboscope
> > for 60 Hz
> > > under a 120 Hz light (goes for fluorescent or low-power incandescent
> > lamps off
> > > the mains), you can only get a stationary ring at 78.26.
> > >
> > > In the not insignificant parts of the world where they use 50 Hz as the
> > mains
> > > frequency, the corresponding figure would be 77.92 rpm. You need a
> > different
> > > stroboscope for this and also the slow-speed synchronous motor would
> > have a
> > > different number of poles. Aida Favia-Artsay knew, and her Caruso
> > stroboscopes
> > > came in both varieties.
> > >
> > > The Victor Talking Machine Company is on record in the acoustic period
> as
> > > specifying 76 rpm for recording and 78 rpm for reproduction of the
> > recording
> > > obtained. Some of their customers obviously did not have absolute
> pitch.
> > In the
> > > acoustic period of the Gramophone Company, the speed was checked every
> > morning
> > > by means of a piece of cigarette paper under the wax while cutting and
> > counting
> > > the revolutions for a minute. They preferred 78 rpm!
> > >
> > > In the United Kingdom, the Old Philharmonic Pitch (which corresponded
> to
> > an a4
> > > of 452 Hz (give or take a few) survived in the military bands until ca.
> > 1926,
> > > when they also changed to the New Philharmonic Pitch at 439 Hz. If you
> > hear
> > > Nellie Melba sing accompanied by the Band of the Coldstream Guards in
> > 1905 with
> > > the key indicated, you can pitch it absolutely correctly when you play
> > it: they
> > > used the Old Philharmonic Pitch. Columbia recorded a lot of military
> > bands, and
> > > they abandoned the 80 rpm speed for 78 rpm at around the same time the
> > bands
> > > changed tuning. The interesting thing is that the fraction 78/80 is
> very
> > nearly
> > > the same as the fraction 439/452, in other words if you played a
> > Columbia band
> > > record in 1932 you would not know whether it was an early recording
> > slowed down
> > > to 78 or whether it was actually a new recording with the new pitch and
> > the new
> > > speed. This is what I habitually in my workshops call "the dialectic
> > triangle:
> > > speed, key, and standard pitch".
> > >
> > > I rarely comment these days, but this issue is very important.
> > >
> > > Best wishes,
> > >
> > >
> > > George
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> 78.26 did not become a standard speed until electric motors were used
> in
> > >> cutter and playback turntables. In the acoustic era, 78 usually meant
> > 78.00.
> > >> But, if you´re using a modern turntable like, say, a Technics SP-15,
> 78
> > >> actually is 78.26, and the percentage of change must be calculated
> from
> > >> that.
> > >>
> > >> Gary
> > >>
> > >> ____________________________
> > >>
> > >> Gary Galo
> > >> Audio Engineer Emeritus
> > >> The Crane School of Music
> > >> SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676
> > >>
> > >> "Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener."
> > >> Arnold Schoenberg
> > >>
> > >> "A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be believed."
> > >> Igor Markevitch
> > >>
> > >> From: DAVID BURNHAM [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > >> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 6:05 PM
> > >> To: Gary A. Galo
> > >> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
> > >>
> > >> That's fine, but the standard speed for 78s IS 78.26; I don't know if
> > 80RPM
> > >> records included a fraction.  LPs, of course are always based on 33
> 1/3
> > RPM,
> > >> so there would be no reason to relate anything to 33.00 RPM.  I'm sure
> > the
> > >> original question was searching for a corrective adjustment to adapt
> > from
> > >> standard 78 to Columbia's 80 RPM, but that's only a guess.
> > >>
> > >> db
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Monday, April 24, 2017 5:56 PM, Gary A. Galo
> > >> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>  wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I specifically said 78.00 in my reply. I assumed that if you meant
> > 78.26, you
> > >> would have said so.
> > >>
> > >> Gary
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
> > >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
> > On Behalf
> > >> Of DAVID BURNHAM
> > >> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 4:44 PM
> > >> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > >> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
> > >>
> > >> Are you basing that on 78.00 RPM or 78.26 RPM?
> > >> Not challenging you just a question.
> > >> db
> > >>
> > >>      On Monday, April 24, 2017 4:18 PM, Gary A. Galo
> > >> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>  wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> A quarter tone is 3%, a half tone is 6%, and a whole tone is 12%. So,
> > the
> > >> difference between 78.00 and 80 is just a hair under a quarter tone. A
> > quarter
> > >> tone would be 80.34; a half tone is 82.68..
> > >>
> > >> Gary
> > >>
> > >> ____________________________
> > >>
> > >> Gary Galo
> > >> Audio Engineer Emeritus
> > >> The Crane School of Music
> > >> SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676
> > >>
> > >> "Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener."
> > >> Arnold Schoenberg
> > >>
> > >> "A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be believed."
> > >> Igor Markevitch
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
> > >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
> > On Behalf
> > >> Of James Roth
> > >> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 3:31 PM
> > >> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > >> Subject: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
> > >>
> > >> Hello everybody,
> > >>
> > >> Can anyone tell me how many half-tones up from 78 rpm to 80 rpm?
> > >>
> > >> Thanks.
> > >> Ben Roth
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> >
>