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<<John Haley's use of a stable electronic keyboard is good if, in fact, the
tuning is A-440.>>  Yes, Corey, it is exactly that.  I checked it with
(what else) my Korg tuner!

Best,
John



On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 11:37 PM, Corey Bailey <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> I will second Steve's use of a tuner to verify pitch. I use a chromatic
> tuner to verify pitch when the mains frequency isn't that available on the
> recording (and, even when it is). I have relative pitch having been a
> record engineer and mixer for many years but I still use a reference to
> check myself. John Haley's use of a stable electronic keyboard is good if,
> in fact, the tuning is A-440. I will also use my youngest son when he's
> available because he's a classically trained guitarist and can easily call
> out the key and the tuning by ear.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Corey
> Corey Bailey Audio Engineering
> www.baileyzone.net
>
> On 4/24/2017 7:15 PM, Steve Smolian wrote:
>
>> The new technology supplies a different solution.  I now use a Technics
>> SL-1200-2 with KAB's modification that adds the 78 rpm speed, replacing
>> SP-15 with its push button incremental speed adjustment. The 1200-2 uses a
>> slider with a detent for 78, 33 or 45, depending on the chosen basic speed.
>>
>> I run a Korg guitar tuner (about $ 50) and use the1200-2's slider to
>> change record speed while it is playing.  I choose a pre-tuned rather than
>> variable instrument- a  woodwind or piano, not a voice or violin, if
>> possible.   The tuner works by listening to your speakers.
>>
>> When the record is playing at a speed at which the tuner's needle
>> stabilizes at zero, I've adjusted the speed to a definite half-step at
>> A-440 (the frequency of the tuner can be adjusted to 435 or whatever you
>> like.)  It's easy enough to make a second pass at a half step higher and/or
>> lower as well and record all three, should you wish to do so.
>>
>> The crucial step beforehand is to center the record.  I had a machine
>> shop grind down the spindle 1/16th and move the edge of the record with my
>> fingernail until the cartridge no longer swings.  I also had made a metal
>> sleeve that fits over the spindle that restores the original diameter.  The
>> machine shop behind my studio made this.  The spindle mechanism for the
>> 1200-2 is about $ 60.  It's a bit tricky to swap out the original spindle
>> with the replacement, so I paid a technician to do this. Another $ 50.  I
>> believe Dave Cawley offers one of these.
>>
>> Among other things, this process bypasses the Continental 78 rpm and U.S.
>> 78.26 speed issue.
>>
>> Mr. Cawley has back-ordered an outrigger for the 1200-2 that will
>> accommodate my old but recently internally rewired SME 16" arm that will
>> replace the 12" one Technics sup[plied.
>>
>> This process does not affect stylus choice, but, if you come to this
>> year's ARSC conference this year, my talk Saturday includes an important
>> disclosure regarding that issue.
>>
>> Anyone want to by a few not-recently-used pitch pipes?  SP-15s?
>>
>> If you need a digital readout of the speed you use for your metadata,
>> products are available to do this at about $ 300.
>>
>> As I do not have perfect pitch, I find this process very much more
>> efficient.   The remaining problem is adjusting a record side that changes
>> speed while playing.
>>
>> Steve Smolian
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:
>> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Haley
>> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 9:12 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
>>
>> Ben,
>>
>> The advice is all pertinent, but here's some simpler advice.   A great
>> many
>> 78's do not play at 78 or 78.26 RPM.  They are irregular, and it is
>> always best to check the pitch and correct it by ear.  I use a Yamaha
>> electronic piano that has pitch at exactly A= 440, top dead center.  With
>> careful listening, you can hear very, very small pitch differences--not
>> really that hard.  This is far more reliable than trying to figure it out
>> based on playback speed, with all the charts and math.  At best, that will
>> just give you a good jumping off place.
>> Getting the pitch right is VERY important.  A quarter tone off
>> drastically changes the sound of most voices and a great many instruments.
>> that can also can change the emotional character of the music quite a bit.
>> Larger pitch variations can easily wreck everything.
>>
>> A different issue is: what is the right pitch?   That is another lengthy
>> discussion.
>>
>> Best,
>> John Haley
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 8:45 PM, Corey Bailey<[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> The original question was posted from someone in the US. So yes, all
>>> of the (very interesting) answers were based on "US-centered" speeds.
>>>
>>> Corey
>>> Corey Bailey Audio Engineering
>>> www.baileyzone.net
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/24/2017 3:42 PM, George Brock-Nannestad wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: Patent Tactics, George Brock-Nannestad
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> all very US-centered, isn't it? The 78.26 comes from a certain number
>>>> of poles in a synchronous motor combined with simple ratios in the
>>>> gearbox that changes the rpm from the motor to the target rpm for the
>>>> turntable. But it is only this figure at 60 Hz mains frequency. If
>>>> you had a slow-speed synchronous motor run off 60 Hz the closest to
>>>> 78.00 is 78.26 rpm. If you use a stroboscope for
>>>> 60 Hz
>>>> under a 120 Hz light (goes for fluorescent or low-power incandescent
>>>> lamps off the mains), you can only get a stationary ring at 78.26.
>>>>
>>>> In the not insignificant parts of the world where they use 50 Hz as
>>>> the mains frequency, the corresponding figure would be 77.92 rpm. You
>>>> need a different stroboscope for this and also the slow-speed
>>>> synchronous motor would have a different number of poles. Aida
>>>> Favia-Artsay knew, and her Caruso stroboscopes came in both
>>>> varieties.
>>>>
>>>> The Victor Talking Machine Company is on record in the acoustic
>>>> period as specifying 76 rpm for recording and 78 rpm for reproduction
>>>> of the recording obtained. Some of their customers obviously did not
>>>> have absolute pitch.
>>>> In the
>>>> acoustic period of the Gramophone Company, the speed was checked
>>>> every morning by means of a piece of cigarette paper under the wax
>>>> while cutting and counting the revolutions for a minute. They
>>>> preferred 78 rpm!
>>>>
>>>> In the United Kingdom, the Old Philharmonic Pitch (which corresponded
>>>> to an a4 of 452 Hz (give or take a few) survived in the military
>>>> bands until ca.
>>>> 1926,
>>>> when they also changed to the New Philharmonic Pitch at 439 Hz. If
>>>> you hear Nellie Melba sing accompanied by the Band of the Coldstream
>>>> Guards in
>>>> 1905 with
>>>> the key indicated, you can pitch it absolutely correctly when you
>>>> play
>>>> it: they
>>>> used the Old Philharmonic Pitch. Columbia recorded a lot of military
>>>> bands, and they abandoned the 80 rpm speed for 78 rpm at around the
>>>> same time the bands changed tuning. The interesting thing is that the
>>>> fraction 78/80 is very nearly the same as the fraction 439/452, in
>>>> other words if you played a Columbia band record in 1932 you would
>>>> not know whether it was an early recording slowed down to 78 or
>>>> whether it was actually a new recording with the new pitch and the
>>>> new speed. This is what I habitually in my workshops call "the
>>>> dialectic
>>>> triangle:
>>>> speed, key, and standard pitch".
>>>>
>>>> I rarely comment these days, but this issue is very important.
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> George
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> 78.26 did not become a standard speed until electric motors were
>>>>> used in cutter and playback turntables. In the acoustic era, 78
>>>>> usually meant 78.00.
>>>>> But, if you´re using a modern turntable like, say, a Technics SP-15,
>>>>> 78 actually is 78.26, and the percentage of change must be
>>>>> calculated from that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary
>>>>>
>>>>> ____________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary Galo
>>>>> Audio Engineer Emeritus
>>>>> The Crane School of Music
>>>>> SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676
>>>>>
>>>>> "Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener."
>>>>> Arnold Schoenberg
>>>>>
>>>>> "A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be believed."
>>>>> Igor Markevitch
>>>>>
>>>>> From: DAVID BURNHAM [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 6:05 PM
>>>>> To: Gary A. Galo
>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
>>>>>
>>>>> That's fine, but the standard speed for 78s IS 78.26; I don't know
>>>>> if 80RPM records included a fraction.  LPs, of course are always
>>>>> based on 33 1/3 RPM, so there would be no reason to relate anything
>>>>> to 33.00 RPM.  I'm sure the original question was searching for a
>>>>> corrective adjustment to adapt from standard 78 to Columbia's 80
>>>>> RPM, but that's only a guess.
>>>>>
>>>>> db
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Monday, April 24, 2017 5:56 PM, Gary A. Galo
>>>>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>   wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I specifically said 78.00 in my reply. I assumed that if you meant
>>>>> 78.26, you would have said so.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
>>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
>>>>> On Behalf Of DAVID BURNHAM
>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 4:44 PM
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
>>>>>
>>>>> Are you basing that on 78.00 RPM or 78.26 RPM?
>>>>> Not challenging you just a question.
>>>>> db
>>>>>
>>>>>       On Monday, April 24, 2017 4:18 PM, Gary A. Galo
>>>>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>   wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A quarter tone is 3%, a half tone is 6%, and a whole tone is 12%.
>>>>> So, the difference between 78.00 and 80 is just a hair under a
>>>>> quarter tone. A quarter tone would be 80.34; a half tone is 82.68..
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary
>>>>>
>>>>> ____________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary Galo
>>>>> Audio Engineer Emeritus
>>>>> The Crane School of Music
>>>>> SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676
>>>>>
>>>>> "Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener."
>>>>> Arnold Schoenberg
>>>>>
>>>>> "A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be believed."
>>>>> Igor Markevitch
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
>>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
>>>>> On Behalf Of James Roth
>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 3:31 PM
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> Subject: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello everybody,
>>>>>
>>>>> Can anyone tell me how many half-tones up from 78 rpm to 80 rpm?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>> Ben Roth
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>