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I agree with Bob Maxwell's comments about the expressions named in the 700
12 fields; but so far as I can tell, there is no accommodation in RDA for
saying "Resource A / Container of (expression) / Expression B."  RDA in
Appendix J only provides for "Expression A / Container of (expression) /
Expression B." It's the subject of this RDF triple that's problematic for
me, moreso than the object.

The unconstrained property rdau:P60249
<http://www.rdaregistry.info/Elements/u/#P60249>, "is container of," is
defined as "Relates a resource to a resource that is a discrete component
of a larger resource." Maybe that's enough. I don't see a formal
relationship in RDA that would declare only the object of a relationship to
be an expression or that would require the object to be an expression AAP.

Stephen

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Robert Maxwell <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> In my opinion when we include "container of" relationship links in
> *bibliographic* records, we are simply fulfilling the core requirement in
> 0.6.8:
>
> "When recording primary relationships between a work, expression,
> manifestation, and item, include as a minimum the work manifested. If there
> is more than one expression of the work, record the expression manifested."
>
> This fulfils the 0.6.2 core requirement that when we describe a resource
> (e.g. a manifestation) we support the FRBR user task "identify and select a
> manifestation."
>
> There are various ways to fulfil the core requirement of 0.6.8 when
> creating a bibliographic record. One is to record the relationship(s) by
> giving authorized access points in 7XX fields, or 1XX/240, if there is only
> one. The relationship designator "container of ..." given with an
> authorized access point in a 7XX field of a *bibliographic* record means,
> in my opinion, the *resource* (that is, the manifestation) I am describing
> "contains" such and such a work, or such and such an expression.
>
> In my opinion, in the case of "Mail carrier", 0.6.8 requires that the
> *expression* be recorded (because there are more than one). 0.6.8 says that
> if there is more than one expression embodied in the manifestation, only
> the predominant or first named is required. In my judgment that would be
> the English-language expression. So it is a bit bizarre to me that the LC
> procedure is *not* to name the English-language expression, and instead
> name the work (which, I emphasize again, is *not* a stand-in for the
> original language expression in RDA) and then name the *other*
> (Spanish-language) expression.
>
> In my opinion the *minimum* required by 0.6.8 would be:
>
> 700 12 $i Container of (expression): $a Macken, JoAnn Early, $d 1953- $t
> Mail carrier. $l English.
>
> I come to this conclusion because of the wording "If there is more than
> one expression of the work, record the *expression* manifested. ... If more
> than one expression is embodied in the manifestation, only the first-named
> expression manifested is required."
>
> But I'd certainly go beyond the minimum and record both expressions:
>
> 700 12 $i Container of (expression): $a Macken, JoAnn Early, $d 1953- $t
> Mail carrier. $l English.
> 700 12 $i Container of (expression): $a Macken, JoAnn Early, $d 1953- $t
> Mail carrier. $l Spanish.
>
> Robert L. Maxwell
> Ancient Languages and Special Collections Librarian
> 6728 Harold B. Lee Library
> Brigham Young University
> Provo, UT 84602
> (801)422-5568
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> On Behalf Of Yang Wang
> Sent: Tuesday, April 4, 2017 9:29 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Container of/Contained in
>
> Thanks. For all practical purposes, allow me to return to our original
> scenario:
>
> 245 00 $a Mail carrier = $b El cartero / $c JoAnn Early Macken.
> 700 12 $i Container of (expression): $a Macken, JoAnn Early, $d 1953- $t
> Mail carrier. $l English.
> 700 12 $i Container of (expression): $a Macken, JoAnn Early, $d 1953- $t
> Mail carrier. $l Spanish.
>
> Per Appendix J, there must be a container (of expression) that is larger
> than either of 2 700 fields, do we agree? That would be, in olden days, an
> entity like this:
>
> 100 1  $a Macken, JoAnn Early, $d 1953- $t Mail carrier. $l Spanish &
> English
>
> But that possibility is gone, and now we would have to construct an
> expression-level AAP for it (very difficult to do) or simply look somewhere
> else and avoid using "Container of (expression)" altogether. Would the
> following relationship designators work at all?
>
> a) based on J.3.2 (derivative expression relationship):
> 700 12 $i Translation of: $a Macken, JoAnn Early, $d 1953- $t Mail
> carrier. $l English.
> 700 12 $i Translated as:  $a Macken, JoAnn Early, $d 1953- $t Mail
> carrier. $l Spanish.
>
> Or
>
> b) based on J.3.5 (accompanying expression relationship):
> 700 12 $i Complemented by (expression): $a Macken, JoAnn Early, $d 1953-
> $t Mail carrier. $l English.
> 700 12 $i Complemented by (expression):  $a Macken, JoAnn Early, $d 1953-
> $t Mail carrier. $l Spanish.
>
> Just a thought. Comments, please.
>
> Yang
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> On Behalf Of McDonald, Stephen
> Sent: Monday, April 03, 2017 4:28 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Container of/Contained in
>
> Yang Wang asks, "That being said, for consistency, do we all agree then
> that the designator "Container of (...)" in the bibliographical description
> represents the physical container, whereas in authority records we stick to
> single entity types and don't mix?"
>
> No, I don't agree.  I think that in _all_ of the whole-part relationships
> in Appendix J, the entity type in the parentheses applies to both sides of
> the relationship.  Container of (expression) is used for an expression
> which contains another expression.  Container of (manifestation) is used
> for a manifestation which contains another manifestation.  This is true
> whether the relationship designator is used in a bibliographic record or an
> authority record.  I believe the descriptions of the subtypes listed under
> the designators in Appendix J supports this interpretation.
>
>                                         Steve McDonald
>                                         [log in to unmask]
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> On Behalf Of Yang Wang
> Sent: Monday, April 3, 2017 11:27 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Container of/Contained in
>
> Adam,
>
> I agree. In practice, most of us do seem to have been viewing the
> designator "Container of (...)" "as being the manifestation ... the
> physical container."
>
> In theory (per RDA), however, there is this complication. A quick look in
> the Glossary under "Container of/in (...)" makes one question their
> universal applicability in the bibliographic description. "Container of
> (work)" means " A work that is a discrete component of a larger work" ...
> etc. For a compilation of the same-type aggregates, it may work nicely. For
> a compilation of aggregates of varying types, it's confusing, unless of
> course we consistently view the entire manifestation itself as the
> "container." By the way, the definition for "Container" itself (in the RDA
> glossary) is:  "A housing that is physically separable from the carrier
> being housed."
>
> I realize that RDA/LRM is designed not just for the current MARC
> environment, but for whatever replaces it in the future. Due to certain
> limitations in MARC, mixed entities or usages are unavoidable.  That being
> said, for consistency, do we all agree then that the designator "Container
> of (...)" in the bibliographical description represents the physical
> container, whereas in authority records we stick to single entity types and
> don't mix?
>
> Yang
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> On Behalf Of Adam L. Schiff
> Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 8:45 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Container of/Contained in
>
> In the bibliographic description, I view the "container" as being the
> manifestation that is being described by the bibliographic record, that is,
> the physical container.  Therefore I don't see the self-reference that
> others refer to as "work contains itself".  I do realize that in most
> simple cases, we let the 100/245 do the duty of saying what work is
> contained in the manifestation.  I think in an ideal MARC world for RDA we
> would do away completely with using 1XX and 240 and simply use 245 to
> transcribe what appears on the manifestation, and then use 7XX to provide
> access to the works and expressions contained in the manifestation, so:
>
> 245 00 $a Mail carrier = $b El cartero / $c JoAnn Early Macken.
> 700 12 $i Container of (work): $a Macken, JoAnn Early, $d 1953- $t Mail
> carrier.
> 700 12 $i Container of (expression): $a Macken, JoAnn Early, $d 1953- $t
> Mail carrier. $l Spanish.
>
> or if you needed to explicitly name BOTH expressions:
>
> 245 00 $a Mail carrier = $b El cartero / $c JoAnn Early Macken.
> 700 12 $i Container of (expression): $a Macken, JoAnn Early, $d 1953- $t
> Mail carrier. $l English.
> 700 12 $i Container of (expression): $a Macken, JoAnn Early, $d 1953- $t
> Mail carrier. $l Spanish.
>
> Actually, there would be nothing preventing one from naming the work AND
> both expressions:
>
> 245 00 $a Mail carrier = $b El cartero / $c JoAnn Early Macken.
> 700 12 $i Container of (work): $a Macken, JoAnn Early, $d 1953- $t Mail
> carrier.
> 700 12 $i Container of (expression): $a Macken, JoAnn Early, $d 1953- $t
> Mail carrier. $l English.
> 700 12 $i Container of (expression): $a Macken, JoAnn Early, $d 1953- $t
> Mail carrier. $l Spanish.
>
> Mark Ehlert wrote: "If proceeding with the calculus that the work AAP =
> the original language expression AAP, then perhaps the following
> clarification is in order:
> 700 12 $i Container of (expression): $a Macken, JoAnn Early, $d 1953- $t
> Mail carrier."
>
> I think the use show in the LC/PCC PS is a shortcut for convenience (and
> perhaps to avoid split files with how we currently describe things in
> MARC), and I agree with Bob Maxwell that "Macken, JoAnn Early, 1953- Mail
> carrier" can only be a work access point in RDA.  To be an expression
> access point, one must add an expression element (content type, date of
> expression, language of expression, and/or other distinguishing
> characteristic of expression) to the authorized access point for a work.
> Therefore, using "Container of (expression)" is never appropriate with a
> work access point.
>
> Doing away with the 1XX and 240 fields when we implemented RDA might have
> made things more simple and clear, but they would have also required us to
> always explicitly record an authorized access point for the work(s) or
> expression(s) manifested in 7XX fields, which would have created somewhat
> more work for catalogers.
>
> Adam Schiff
> University of Washington Libraries
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> On Behalf Of Ehlert, Mark K.
> Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 2:26 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Container of/Contained in
>
> From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> On Behalf Of Yang Wang
> Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 3:15 PM
> >
> > Interesting and fair enough. But if the combination of the Name/Title
> > entries (100/245) in the bib itself could stand for the larger “work”
> > of which the first 700 is a constituent...
>
> Which produces the statement that the work contains itself, which rankles
> me to no end.  I did away with this practice in my local video cataloging.
> For dubbed films, I add a 130 when appropriate for the work and incorporate
> 730 02s with "Container of (expression)" for each language version,
> including the original.
>
> If proceeding with the calculus that the work AAP = the original language
> expression AAP, then perhaps the following clarification is in order:
> 700 12 $i Container of (expression): $a Macken, JoAnn Early, $d 1953- $t
> Mail carrier.
>
> --
> Mark K. Ehlert                 O'Shaughnessy-Frey Library
> Cataloging and Metadata        University of St. Thomas
>   Librarian                    2115 Summit Avenue
> Phone: 651-962-5488            St. Paul, MN 55105
> <http://www.stthomas.edu/libraries/>
>
>   "Experience is by industry achieved // And perfected by the swift course
> of time"--Shakespeare, "Two Gentlemen of Verona," Act I, Scene iii
>
>
>


-- 
Stephen Hearn, Metadata Strategist
Data Management & Access, University Libraries
University of Minnesota
160 Wilson Library
309 19th Avenue South
Minneapolis, MN 55455
Ph: 612-625-2328
Fx: 612-625-3428
ORCID:  0000-0002-3590-1242