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Any musician must be able to discern such a difference. Otherwise, they'd never be able to tune their instruments (or voices) to their fellow performers. An orchestra with half its members that far out of tune would be painful to hear. 

And, any experienced listener, especially those who have spent a lot of time finding the correct playback speeds for historical recordings, will be able to tell the difference. Easily. It's not just a matter of pitch, but of timbre, as well. A 0.44% error in speed causes a significant change in the timbre of a singer's voice. Pitch Geraldine Farrar 0.44% high and she turns into a canary. Ditto Nelly Melba. 

And, the difference is much easier to discern with real musical program material than it would be with test tones. 

Gary


-----Original Message-----
From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Gledhill
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2017 12:28 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm - really

Are you saying that you could walk in and out of a room with material playing and tell the differences between something that had been shifted by 0.44%. Such as music or a  1000 hz versus a 1004 hz  tone?
And, describe the difference as dramatic?
I find this absolutely  fascinating, being somewhat tone deaf myself.

I assume we are not talking about wow or flutter but absolute pitch.

On 5/1/2017 10:56 AM, John Haley wrote:
> Thanks, Michael.  The .44 pitch speed/pitch error is a quite 
> significant one, even a dramatic one, in terms of its effect on music.
>
> This brings me back to the position I stated earlier in this string, 
> that while all the science is dandy, you should be checking pitch 
> individually for every 78 record, at least for dubbing work.  Without 
> research you sometimes can't tell where a record was recorded (which 
> can be different from the place of manufacture, as Michael pointed 
> out), whereas the pitch is manifest from the record itself and easily 
> ascertained.  Using all the scientific aids is helpful but doing that 
> without actually checking the pitch is ultimately going to lead to errors.
>
> And just checking the pitch is way faster than researching where a 
> record was recorded and then doing all the involved math.
>
> While this is off-topic, checking the pitch when dubbing LPs is also a 
> great idea.  LP pitch is much more standard than 78 pitch, but still 
> not totally reliable.  So many different companies, employing so many 
> human beings, created records, over a long period of time.  Nothing is 
> truly "standard."
>
> E.g., in past decades, Decca/London Records deliberately released some 
> opera recordings way off pitch, just to save record space and jam an 
> opera onto two records instead of three.  Of course that should never 
> have happened at a reputable, big company, but human beings running 
> the company made recognizable human decisions.  Completely erroneous 
> and misguided, but there we are.
>
> Best,
> John
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 10:13 AM, Michael Shoshani< 
> [log in to unmask]>  wrote:
>
>    
>> Hi John
>>
>> Not so much manufactured as recorded. Strobe discs are dependent on a 
>> specific number of lines, which vary according to the frequency of 
>> the blinking of the light source. American 60Hz strobe discs require 
>> 92 bars, which gives a speed of 78.26 RPM, but in countries where 
>> 50Hz is the power frequency, the strobe discs require 77 bars, which 
>> gives a speed of 77.92 RPM. These are thus the speeds at which 
>> electrically driven record players were factory calibrated, and thus 
>> the speeds at which the record companies in their respective areas recorded their material.
>>
>> Record companies on both sides of the Atlantic regularly exchanged 
>> material; Jack Hylton's HMV records were issued on Victor here, for 
>> example, and Duke Ellington's Victor records were issued on HMV 
>> there. But these were master pressings, not dubbed and 
>> speed-adjusted. Presumably the 0.44% difference in speed is either 
>> unnoticed or tolerated by most listeners, since the playing equipment 
>> for each would be slightly incorrect for the other country.
>>
>> Michael Shoshani
>> Chicago
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 8:58 AM, John Haley<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
>>
>>      
>>> Michael, are you saying that 78s manufactured in Europe play at a
>>>        
>> different
>>      
>>> correct speed than 78's manufactured in the US?  I have never heard 
>>> anything like that before.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 9:48 AM, Michael Shoshani< 
>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>        
>>>> wrote:
>>>>          
>>>        
>>>> Hi Gary,
>>>>
>>>> While the KAB Speed Strobe works independently of the power line
>>>>          
>>> frequency,
>>>        
>>>> and thus works equally well in 60 Hz and 50 Hz countries in theory, 
>>>> I
>>>>          
>>> would
>>>        
>>>> submit that in practice it is still geared to the speeds provided 
>>>> on 60
>>>>          
>>> Hz
>>>        
>>>> turntables, which means that electrically recorded 78s from Europe 
>>>> will
>>>>          
>>> be
>>>        
>>>> off.
>>>>
>>>> Its specs indicate 78.26 for 78rpm, which is the 60Hz standard; 
>>>> Electrically recorded 78s from countries where 50Hz is the power
>>>>          
>>> frequency
>>>        
>>>> are recorded at 77.92 RPM.  Anyone in the UK or Europe, for 
>>>> example,
>>>>          
>> who
>>      
>>>> uses the SpeedStrobe to set their turntables at 78, will be playing
>>>>          
>> their
>>      
>>>> locally manufactured records at a speed 0.44% faster than they 
>>>> should
>>>>          
>> be
>>      
>>> -
>>>        
>>>> a slightly greater pitching error than the 0.42% Caruso one.  (The 
>>>> SpeedStrobe does not offer 77.92, which seems an amazing oversight 
>>>> for
>>>>          
>> a
>>      
>>>> product intended for worldwide use.)
>>>>
>>>> Michael Shoshani
>>>> Chicago
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 2:40 PM, Gary A. Galo<[log in to unmask]>
>>>>          
>>> wrote:
>>>        
>>>>          
>>>>> Hi George,
>>>>>
>>>>> Following Aida Favia-Artsay, the difference between 76.60 (60Hz) 
>>>>> and
>>>>>            
>>>> 76.92
>>>>          
>>>>> (50Hz) is 0.42%. This is an unacceptable pitching error. Are you
>>>>>            
>>> telling
>>>        
>>>> me
>>>>          
>>>>> that every 76.6-rpm Caruso record pitched using her 50 Hz strobe 
>>>>> will
>>>>>            
>>> be
>>>        
>>>>> 0.42% off?
>>>>>
>>>>> It would seem that, for turntables lacking a digital readout, a
>>>>>            
>>> sensible
>>>        
>>>>> solution is KAB's Speed Strobe:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.kabusa.com/strobe.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> The Speed Strobe comes with its own LED lamp, which is illuminated
>>>>>            
>>> with a
>>>        
>>>>> quartz-locked AC signal. Therefore, it is not dependent on the 
>>>>> power
>>>>>            
>>> line
>>>        
>>>>> frequency, and will work equally well in 60 Hz and 50 Hz countries.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>            
>>>>          
>>>        
>>      
>    

--
John Gledhill
BIT WORKS Inc.
905 881 2733
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