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This is an interesting example of the discordance that shows up sometimes between RDA and PCC practice. If you are able to join up for our next Legal Cataloging Forum (at least remotely via skype or something) hosted at LC, I am proposing an overlapping idea on which to share a few thoughts. Thank you (and happy weekend everyone) Jesse On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 5:26 PM, Hostage, John <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > To expand on Adam’s point, discussions of RDA have always distinguished > between recording data as an element or as part of an access point. RDA > does this as well in 9.16.1.3 and many other instructions, e.g. “Record a > profession or occupation as a separate element, as part of an access point, > or as both.” The use of the term “element” in 9.19.1.6 seems to be rather > sloppy, since it glosses over this distinction, but the PS maintains the > distinction. > > > > I agree with Adam that LCDGT is preferable for recording occupations in > 374, though it lacks many terms found in LCSH. I still think an > occupational thesaurus with terms in the singular would have been even > better. > > > > ------------------------------------------ > > John Hostage > > Senior Continuing Resources Cataloger > > Harvard Library--Information and Technical Services > > Langdell Hall 194 > > Harvard Law School Library > > Cambridge, MA 02138 > > [log in to unmask] > > +(1)(617) 495-3974 <(617)%20495-3974> (voice) > > +(1)(617) 496-4409 <(617)%20496-4409> (fax) > ISNI 0000 0000 4028 0917 > > > > *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask] > GOV] *On Behalf Of *Adam L. Schiff > *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2017 16:52 > > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: [PCCLIST] (Professor of law) as personal name qualifier > > > > RDA doesn’t contemplate that the data recorded in the separate element > might be different from the element used as an addition to an authorized > access point. That is why all of the examples are in the singular in 9.16 > and 9.19.1.6. PCC decided that data in the separate element ought to be > in a controlled form (which allows for URIs leading to the authority record > for that controlled form). Once you make that decision, there’s no longer > a direct correspondence between the form used as a qualifier and the > controlled term recorded as a separate element. As John Hostage pointed > out, (Law teacher) is not a controlled form, so it hardly matters whether > one uses that or (Law professor) or (Professor of law) or (Law instructor) > or anything else since none of those match Law teachers from LCSH. > > > > Incidently, I am of the opinion that we ought to be preferring LCDGT over > LCSH for source terms for occupation, since that vocabulary is > purpose-built to be a class of persons/demographic group thesaurus, and > occupational terms are explicitly labelled as such in it. There has been > an LCDGT proposal for Law teachers waiting to be acted upon since May > 2016. Hopefully it will appear on an upcoming monthly list. > > > > Adam Schiff > > University of Washington Libraries > > > > *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask] > GOV <[log in to unmask]>] *On Behalf Of *Christopher Thomas > *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2017 1:01 PM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: (Professor of law) as personal name qualifier > > > > If you read the text of RDA 9.19.1.6, it very clearly refers to the access > point qualifier as an “element”: > > “Include a profession or occupation (see 9.16) if needed to distinguish > one authorized access point from another. Include this element when the > person’s date of birth or date of death is not available (see 9.19.1.3).” > > > > The word “element” does not refer only to MARC field 374. > > > > *Christopher Thomas, M.L.S.| Electronic Resources and Metadata Librarian* > > (949) 824-7681 | fax (949) 824-6700 | [log in to unmask] > > Law Library · University *of* California · Irvine > > www.law.uci.edu/library > > > > *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask] > GOV <[log in to unmask]>] *On Behalf Of *Hostage, John > *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2017 11:16 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: [PCCLIST] (Professor of law) as personal name qualifier > > > > How is it confusing? The instruction applies to recording the profession > or occupation as an element, i.e. in field 374. The examples show the 100 > field as a way of contrast and to show that you don’t have to use the same > term. > > > > When PS 9.19.1.6 refers to 9.16.1.3, it is also making this distinction: > the latter is about recording the element, not the addition. > > > > ------------------------------------------ > > John Hostage > > Senior Continuing Resources Cataloger > > Harvard Library--Information and Technical Services > > Langdell Hall 194 > > Harvard Law School Library > > Cambridge, MA 02138 > > [log in to unmask] > > +(1)(617) 495-3974 <(617)%20495-3974> (voice) > > +(1)(617) 496-4409 <(617)%20496-4409> (fax) > ISNI 0000 0000 4028 0917 > > > > *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask] > GOV <[log in to unmask]>] *On Behalf Of *Benjamin A Abrahamse > *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2017 14:07 > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: [PCCLIST] (Professor of law) as personal name qualifier > > > > I find that example a bit confusing. It seems to contradict the > instruction, “Prefer a controlled vocabulary, such as LCSH or MeSH, when > recording profession or occupation terms.” > > > > > > 100 1# > > $a Thompson, Simon $c (Professor) > > 374 ## > > $a College teachers $2 lcsh > > 374 ## > > $a University and college faculty members $2 lcdgt > > > > > > Following the rubric of the PS, shouldn’t the qualifier be “College > teacher”? Is this example showing that you can use other terms (if you > prefer) even if there are valid terms in LCSH? > > > > (Don’t get me wrong: I would much prefer to use “professor” instead, as I > know plenty of profs who teach at universities, not college—and that > distinction matters to them, if not us.) > > > > > > --Ben > > > > *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask] > GOV <[log in to unmask]>] *On Behalf Of *Hostage, John > *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2017 1:48 PM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: [PCCLIST] (Professor of law) as personal name qualifier > > > > I believe LC-PCC PS 9.16.1.3 applies to recording a profession or > occupation in field 374. In fact, one of the examples given uses > (Professor) in the access point. It would be very difficult to use > controlled vocabularies for such additions, and what would be the point? > Also, (Law teacher) is not a controlled term. > > > > ------------------------------------------ > > John Hostage > > Senior Continuing Resources Cataloger > > Harvard Library--Information and Technical Services > > Langdell Hall 194 > > Harvard Law School Library > > Cambridge, MA 02138 > > [log in to unmask] > > +(1)(617) 495-3974 <(617)%20495-3974> (voice) > > +(1)(617) 496-4409 <(617)%20496-4409> (fax) > ISNI 0000 0000 4028 0917 > > > > *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask] > GOV <[log in to unmask]>] *On Behalf Of *Christopher Thomas > *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2017 13:16 > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* [PCCLIST] (Professor of law) as personal name qualifier > > > > I just came across the following name, established by LC: > > Siegelman, Peter (Professor of law) > > https://lccn.loc.gov/n2009079304 > > > > When I establish personal names for law professors and a qualifier is > needed, I generally use (Law teacher) based on the LCSH term, since LC-PCC > PS for 9.16.1.3 indicates that controlled vocabulary terms are to be > preferred. There is no applicable LCDGT term I can find. Does anyone know > what controlled vocabulary “Professor of law” might have come from, or > other rationale for using it? I’m not going to change this one, but > thinking about what I should use in the future. > > > > *Christopher Thomas, M.L.S.| Electronic Resources and Metadata Librarian* > > (949) 824-7681 | fax (949) 824-6700 | [log in to unmask] > > Law Library · University *of* California · Irvine > > www.law.uci.edu/library > > > -- Jesse A Lambertson Head of Cataloging & Metadata *Georgetown University Law Library* [log in to unmask] Ph: *202-662-9167*