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Thanks John,

Regards
Tim


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Haley" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Recording Process in 1920s


> Capstan will certainly to that, but so will Izotope RX.
>
> Best,
> John
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 6:38 PM, Tim Gillett <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>> Then there's the problem of rotational speed changing between outer to
>> inner grooves. It's harder for the disc cutter to maintain a constant
>> rotational speed when cutting the outer grooves than the inner. It 
>> requires
>> more torque cutting the outer groves. So typically the playback will 
>> start
>> at one pitch and appear to lower in pitch (slow down) towards the inner
>> grooves. I dont know how common this  problem was in disc cutting in that
>> era but I've observed it ocasionally repairing an old wind up acoustic
>> gramophone. Of course it's harder to correct for such an error but I'd
>> imagine today a product like Celemony Capstan or the equivalent Cedar
>> product would make it a lot easier, though strictly they appear to be
>> designed to correct wow and flutter. Others with experience with these
>> tools will know more.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Haley" <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 6:21 AM
>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Recording Process in 1920s
>>
>>
>>
>> The easiest way I have ever found to determine the pitch of a recording 
>> and
>>> adjust it correctly is this.  Just play along with the recording on an
>>> electronic keyboard such as the Yamaha one I use, which has absolutely
>>> perfect pitch--it reads "top dead center" on a Korg tuner.  This will 
>>> tell
>>> you instantly if the recording if at the same pitch, or higher or lower,
>>> and you can easily hear very, very small pitch errors this way--they
>>> become
>>> quite apparent--way easier than trying to remember a pitch mentally.
>>> Obviously I am just playing tunes and sometimes harmonies, not the whole
>>> thing, and I am not making any effort to play anything well.  This takes
>>> hardly any keyboard skill, and it is far easier for me to hear what is
>>> going on this way than using a Korg guitar tuner (which is itself way
>>> better than nothing).  Getting pitch right used to be such a 
>>> headache--now
>>> it's a snap.  I can do it in seconds.  Such an electronic keyboard costs
>>> something like $100.
>>>
>>> Plus, the keyboard is easily adjustable to other pitches--for instance,
>>> where we know that an orchestra tunes to A = 442 or some other A besides
>>> 440.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 4:28 PM, George Brock-Nannestad 
>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> From: Patent Tactics, George Brock-Nannestad
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello, Terri and all,
>>>>
>>>> the question, as I read it, is not entirely clear to me. What is meant 
>>>> by
>>>> "recordings in the 1920s were transferred to disc"? Would that indicate
>>>> that
>>>> recordings on cylinders -- a standard format in ethnomusicology until
>>>> about
>>>> 1940 -- would have been transferred to disc in the 1920s, OR that
>>>> recordings
>>>> from the 1920s (still on cylinders) have been transferred to LP (from 
>>>> the
>>>> 1950s) or CD (from about 1985)? This involves two stages of recording:
>>>> 1st
>>>> on
>>>> cylinder, and 2nd onto the next medium, playing the cylinder. There may
>>>> certainly be problems in the transfer from cylinder to next medium. The
>>>> early
>>>> ethnomusicologists (from the time the field was called "comparative
>>>> musicology") knew this, and this is why they frequently sounded a pitch
>>>> pipe
>>>> before each take. If this pitch is reproduced correctly in the next
>>>> medium, the
>>>> whole recording is correct as concerns pitch.
>>>>
>>>> Most commenters have talked about disc recording, but these did not
>>>> become
>>>> really important for ethnomusicological sound collection before the 
>>>> 1930s
>>>> (John
>>>> Lomax and Laura Boulton were typical representatives). The Library of
>>>> Congress
>>>> started transferring their Densmore cylinders to 78 rpm vinyl discs in
>>>> the
>>>> 1940s.
>>>>
>>>> I am worried about the 1938 Presto lathe that apparently cuts 7% slow
>>>> with
>>>> the
>>>> cutter on the virgin disc. This how I interpret that the playback of 
>>>> the
>>>> record
>>>> just cut is 7% sharp, all provided that the Presto turntable is used
>>>> with a
>>>> pickup-arm for reproducing the disc just cut. And this would indicate 
>>>> an
>>>> underpowered motor. Otherwise the reason could be that the speed of the
>>>> reproducing turntable is too fast.
>>>>
>>>> Concerning discs I agree completely with John Haley at Mon, 22 Jan 2018
>>>> 11:57:30. And I have used the approach recommended by Steve Smolian 
>>>> since
>>>> 1981,
>>>> and I am on my 4th Korg right now, although it is called a Chromatic
>>>> Tuner
>>>> with
>>>> no string preferences. If you would like to know more about my version 
>>>> of
>>>> this
>>>> approach, Google will show the way.
>>>>
>>>> If someone is interested in digging deeper into acoustic recording as
>>>> performed
>>>> at the Victor Talking Machine Company and the Gramophone Company up to
>>>> 1925, I
>>>> would recommend my AES Conference Preprint from 1997:
>>>> "The Objective Basis for the Production of High Quality Transfers from
>>>> Pre-1925
>>>> Sound Recordings", AES Preprint No. 4610, 103nd Convention 1997 
>>>> September
>>>> 26-29, New York. This is free in electronic form to members of the 
>>>> Audio
>>>> Engineering Society. I have noticed that it is being cited quite
>>>> frequently in
>>>> later years.
>>>>
>>>> I would be happy to provide greater detail, but in that case perhaps an
>>>> off-list exchange would offend the fewest people.
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> George
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------
>>>> From:   Terri Brinegar <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> To:     [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject:        [ARSCLIST] Recording Process in 1920s
>>>> Date sent:      Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:09:06 -0500
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Hello All,
>>>> >
>>>> > Can anyone tell me if recordings in the 1920s were transferred to 
>>>> > disc
>>>> > at
>>>> > exactly the same speed as they were recorded? In other words, if >
>>>> someone
>>>> is
>>>> > singing an "F" pitch on the recording, is that the actual pitch sung 
>>>> > or
>>>> > could the engineer possibly speed it up somehow, thus raising the >
>>>> pitch?
>>>> Not
>>>> > sure if that was possible back then.
>>>> >
>>>> > Thank you!
>>>> >
>>>> > Terri Brinegar
>>>> > PhD Candidate in Ethnomusicology
>>>> > University of Florida
>>>> > [log in to unmask]
>>>> > [log in to unmask]
>>>>
>>>>
>>
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