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Thanks, Amanda. This is a good example (your BCP47 example) of the
complexity.

        [ a bf:Title;

            rdfs:label "西遊記 = Journey to the west"@zh-cmn-hant;

            bflc:titleSortKey "西遊記 = Journey to the west";

            bf:mainTitle "西遊記"@zh-cmn-hant;

            bf:subtitle "Journey to the west"@en-us ] .

shows that mixed language strings (rdfs:label, bflc:titleSortKey)
present problems. (One has a language tag, the other does not -
intentional?) I would assume that BCP47 would mainly be used by
specialist libraries or for special collections.

Perhaps I should offer my questions in list form, and we can tick them off?

- 2-char or 3-char codes, or BCP47? Which are used, and under what
circumstances?
- mixed language strings - which language are they given, if any, and why?
- what is the relationship between language of title and language of the
text of the resource, if any? (cf. "Quo Vadis?"[1])
- who is responsible for the rules that govern decisions? RDA group?
PCC? LoC BIBFRAME?
- does this affect display in any way?
- does this affect indexing in any way?
- does this affect search in any way?

I think that's it, along with the obvious need for use cases.

kc
[1]
http://www.worldcat.org/search?qt=worldcat_org_bks&q=quo+vadis&fq=dt%3Abks

(Also, as a note, one can only see the full OCLC record when accessing
from a member organization. The rest of us see only a fairly reduced
record and never the MARC fields. In addition, given that RDA is behind
a paywall, that also isn't available to those outside of a subscribing
institution. This affects not only us renegade retirees, but also many
librarians in libraries who cannot afford these services. This
"have/have not" is not, IMO, good for the library world in general.
Silos may be necessary, but they always create a barrier.)

On 1/5/18 3:23 PM, Xu, Amanda wrote:
> Hi Karen,
> 
>  
> 
> Thank you so much for these wonderful questions.  According to W3C
> Recommendation 25 February 2014, RDF 1.1 Concepts and Abstract Syntax, 
> a literal in an RDF graph consists of two or three elements.  If the
> third element is present, a literal is a language-tagged string. 
> Lexical representations of language tags may be converted to lower case.
> The value space of language tags is always in lower case.  The language
> tag must be well-formed according to section 2.2.9 of BCP47, available
> from https://tools.ietf.org/html/bcp47.  You can find the language codes
> from
> https://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry/language-subtag-registry  
> 
> 
>  
> 
> For compliance, we may consider the adoption of BCP47 language tags. 
> However, I agree with you that we must build good use cases for the
> coding change given the complexity of our data.  I also agree with Joe
> Kiegek that in native BIBFRAME and a good user interface, assigning
> language tags may not be difficult or time consuming.  In addition, I am
> hoping that the next version of MARC2BIBFRAME converter can handle
> multiscript record conversion better with the use of BCP47 language tags
> if an agreement can be reached by PCC or some such group.
> 
>  
> 
> One experiment that I did might be the starting point for us to collect
> sample data for use case development.  You can check OCLC#122820377 . 
> It is not a RDA record and relator codes are missing.  But we may list
> it as an example for a multiscript record.   The transcribed title and
> subtitle are in different language scripts.  Author/title groups,
> personal names, TOC, etc. are in different language scripts.
> 
>  
> 
> _Paired field for MARC 245 title field in OCLC_:
> 
>  
> 
>  
> imap:[log in to unmask]:143/fetch%3EUID%3E.INBOX.BIBFRAME%3E2922?header=quotebody&part=1.1.2&filename=image001.png   
> 
>  
> 
> _Titles with language tags using BCP47 in BIBFRAME description_:
> 
>  
> 
> <http://example.org/ocn122820377#Work> a bf:MovingImage,
> 
>         bf:Work;
> 
>     rdfs:label "Xi you ji"@pinyin;
> 
>  
> 
> bf:contribution
> 
> [ a bf:Contribution;
> 
>                                 bf:agent
> <http://example.org/ocn122820377#Agent700-31>;
> 
>                                 bf:role
> <http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/relators/ctb> ],
> 
> [ a bf:Contribution;
> 
>                                bf:agent
> <http://example.org/ocn122820377#Agent880-44>;
> 
>                                bf:role
> <http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/relators/ctb> ];
> 
>  
> 
> bf:title [ a bf:Title;
> 
>             rdfs:label "Xi you ji"@pinyin;
> 
>             bflc:titleSortKey "Xi you ji";
> 
>             bf:mainTitle "Xi you ji"@pinyin ],
> 
>         [ a bf:Title;
> 
>             rdfs:label "西遊記 = Journey to the west"@zh-cmn-hant;
> 
>             bflc:titleSortKey "西遊記 = Journey to the west";
> 
>             bf:mainTitle "西遊記"@zh-cmn-hant;
> 
>             bf:subtitle "Journey to the west"@en-us ] .
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> <http://example.org/ocn122820377#Agent700-31> a bf:Agent,
> 
>         bf:Person;
> 
>     rdfs:label "Yang, Jie"@pinyin;
> 
>     bflc:name00MarcKey "7001 $6880-04$aYang, Jie";
> 
>     bflc:name00MatchKey "Yang, Jie" .
> 
>  
> 
> <http://example.org/ocn122820377#Agent880-44> a bf:Agent,
> 
>         bf:Person;
> 
>     rdfs:label "杨洁"@zh-cmn-hant;
> 
>     bflc:name00MarcKey "8801 $6700-04/$1$a杨洁";
> 
>     bflc:name00MatchKey "杨洁" .
> 
>  
> 
> Attached is the entire record in .ttl format.  Thanks a lot!
> 
>  
> 
> Amanda
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> ---
> 
> Amanda Xu
> 
> Metadata Analyst Librarian
> 
> Cataloging and Metadata Department
> 
> University of Iowa Libraries
> 
> 100 Main Library (LIB)
> 
> Iowa City, IA 52242-1420
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bibliographic Framework Transition Initiative Forum
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karen Coyle
> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2018 2:24 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [BIBFRAME] CC:AAM Statement in Support of the
> Internationalization of BIBFRAME
> 
>  
> 
> On 1/2/18 9:14 AM, Joseph Kiegel wrote:
> 
>> There will be edge cases that are difficult, but for the vast majority
> of strings, the language will be obvious to the cataloger.
> 
>>
> 
>> In native BIBFRAME and a good user interface, assigning language tags
> will not be difficult or time consuming.  The language of cataloging is
> known and those fields can be tagged automatically.  Templates can
> assign tags for catalogers who routinely catalog in a given language.  I
> have experimented with language tags in a test interface and it was not
> hard.
> 
>  
> 
> This is the kind of statement which makes me hunger for more detail. For
> example, what were the rules for assignment for: transcribed titles?
> 
> titles with subtitles in different languages? author/title groups (if
> they exist in BF - I don't remember the structuring of those)? personal
> names? Are there strings with more than one language and how is that
> handled? Can a title ever be in a different language than the language
> of the text when the text is monolingual?
> 
>  
> 
> Also, do we have or is anyone developing rules or guidelines for
> cataloging decisions regarding language tagging of individual strings?
> 
> (This would seem to fall to PCC or some such group?)  Is this covered in
> RDA anywhere? What standard are we using? ISO 639-1, -2, or BCP 47?
> 
>  
> 
> But above all I have yet to read anything that addresses the use cases
> where such encoding facilitates or is essential for user services. We
> have long had the separate of subject access by language (O Canada!),
> and the selection of language materials by language. But I haven't seem
> a non-speculative, practical use for language tagging of strings. I
> realize that language tagging of strings is coming to us from RDF, and
> is somewhat new, and may in the future be obligatory, but I still think
> we need use cases before undertaking coding so that said coding will
> provide the desired outcomes, given the complexity of our data.
> 
>  
> 
> Perhaps what this amounts to is a knowledge gap between the BF
> practitioners and those of us who are on the sidelines. If so, please
> point us to the relevant documentation!
> 
>  
> 
> thanks,
> 
> kc
> 
>  
> 
>>
> 
>>
> 
>>
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
> 
>> From: Bibliographic Framework Transition Initiative Forum
> 
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karen Coyle
> 
>> Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 6:42 AM
> 
>> To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> 
>> Subject: Re: [BIBFRAME] CC:AAM Statement in Support of the
> 
>> Internationalization of BIBFRAME
> 
>>
> 
>> Osma, I took all of those examples of 1984 from LoC's catalog. While
> Wikidata may think they have different titles, we don't know how that
> decision was made (there are no cataloging rules for Wikidata). In no
> case have I seen "Nineteen Eighty-Four" for the English version
> (although it was filed that way in card catalogs as per the ALA Filing
> Rules). Your examples all conveniently prove your point, but I still
> think that asking catalogers to determine the language of every field is
> going to create difficulties. It would be a good idea to take a sampling
> of records and try this out. From the cataloger's point of view.
> 
>>
> 
>> kc
> 
>>
> 
>> On 12/21/17 7:44 AM, Osma Suominen wrote:
> 
>>>> However, there is a big problem with trying to attribute
> 
>>>> *language* to fields in bibliographic data. It only takes a few
> 
>>>> examples to understand why:
> 
>>>> 
> 
>>>> Title:
> 
>>>> 1984 (book in German)
> 
>>>> 1984 (book in Hebrew)
> 
>>>> 1984 (book in English)
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> I don't think that's a problem at all. In fact this is a great
> 
>>> example, since the name of Orwell's novel (assuming you meant it)
> 
>>> actually differs between many languages. According to Wikidata
> 
>>> (http://www.wikidata.org/entity/Q208460) it is called
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> "1984" in German
> 
>>> "1984" in Hebrew (but rendered with right-to-left alignment!)
> 
>>> "Nineteen Eighty-Four" in English (not 1984!) "Vuonna 1984" in
> 
>>> Finnish "নাইন্টিন এইটি-ফোর" in Bengali
> 
>>
> 
>> --
> 
>> Karen Coyle
> 
>> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> http://kcoyle.net
> 
>> m: +1-510-435-8234
> 
>> skype: kcoylenet/+1-510-984-3600
> 
>>
> 
>  
> 
> --
> 
> Karen Coyle
> 
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> http://kcoyle.net
> 
> m: +1-510-435-8234
> 
> skype: kcoylenet/+1-510-984-3600
> 

-- 
Karen Coyle
[log in to unmask] http://kcoyle.net
m: +1-510-435-8234
skype: kcoylenet/+1-510-984-3600