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I would consider Batman and Green Arrow to be Superheroes.

It is not their powers, but the fact their “super-ness” describes the extent to which they are heroes.

If I run into a burning building once and rescue a child, I may be a hero.  If I do this on a regular basis while stopping an invasion from another dimension, then I am a superhero.  My abilities, or their origin are not what matters, so much as the scale of what I do.


-          Hank

William C. (Hank) Young
CONSER Coordinator
George A. Smathers Libraries
University of Florida

From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stephen Hearn
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2018 12:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Superheroes - profession/occupation or other distinguishing characteristic?

There's a long history of argument in fandom over the term "superhero." Superman is easy, but are Batman and Green Arrow superheroes, even though each apparently just trained really hard? If not, what are they?

LCSH also has "Supervillains." Is the freakish but non-powered Joker a supervillain? Is Marvel's Galactus too cosmic to be a supervillain? And what exactly is the Hulk?

LCSH also has "Sidekicks in literature," though oddly not "Sidekicks." Do we need "Sidekicks? Do we need "Super-sidekicks" to distinguish between Robin the Boy Wonder (Sidekick) and Aqualad (Super-sidekick)?

Alternatively, we could consider all of these as having originated as  "Comic book characters" (or "Comic strip characters" as LCSH currently has it).  But that's clearly not a profession, or even a hobby. It's more like a genre ...

Stephen


On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 3:38 PM, McDonald, Stephen <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
All the dictionaries I have checked have a first definition implying an income or livelihood.  The second definition is more generally something with which one is occupied.  But your point about avocations being in the RDA definition is telling.  I also see in the RDA examples, “Gay rights activist”.  Along with some of the other examples provided above, I find myself convinced.  I’ve changed my mind.  Superheroes is not inappropriate in a 374 for those characters who are clearly identified as such in their medium.

Good discussion!

                                                                                Steve McDonald
                                                                                [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>


From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> On Behalf Of Adam L. Schiff
Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2018 4:26 PM

To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Superheroes - profession/occupation or other distinguishing characteristic?

The key is the definition in RDA, that specifically says that the element “profession or occupation” includes vocations and avocations.  As someone else (I’m afraid I can’t recall who) early on in the development of RDA said to me to explain, “occupation” is something with which one is occupied, so it can include avocations.

Adam Schiff

From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Gordon Marr
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 1:02 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Superheroes - profession/occupation or other distinguishing characteristic?

Depends upon how you define terms (which RDA doesn’t):

“Occupation” can be understood to be a “fairly permanent trade, profession, employment, business, or means of livelihood.”
https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/occupation<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__legal-2Ddictionary.thefreedictionary.com_occupation&d=DwMFaQ&c=pZJPUDQ3SB9JplYbifm4nt2lEVG5pWx2KikqINpWlZM&r=B8R2bbCC_DV9QGpqWgLBL6x4pN5m1ouGjVJXrYP-cIg&m=jvES4FQJuTdLBEnkyldNBoJ_HShw09Iv1PSstb1P0kw&s=yvSvpkdegl7pnV5dIlkG4_0p0KjjKkM-w53zydJO220&e=>


  "The term occupation would commonly be understood to refer to the income producing activity to which a person devotes the major portion of his time and from which he derives the major portion of his income."
http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/O/Occupation.aspx<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.duhaime.org_LegalDictionary_O_Occupation.aspx&d=DwMFaQ&c=pZJPUDQ3SB9JplYbifm4nt2lEVG5pWx2KikqINpWlZM&r=B8R2bbCC_DV9QGpqWgLBL6x4pN5m1ouGjVJXrYP-cIg&m=jvES4FQJuTdLBEnkyldNBoJ_HShw09Iv1PSstb1P0kw&s=hYgtn4vYVn3Btlze6diM-JSBk5vktfZobJPY8UfqZJc&e=>

John G. Marr
Collections
Zimmerman Library
University of New Mexico
Albuquerque, NM 87010
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>

         **"I really like to know the reasons for what I do!"**
                                             Martha Watson

Opinions belong exclusively to the individuals expressing them, but sharing is permitted.




From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> On Behalf Of Robert Maxwell
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 1:43 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Superheroes - profession/occupation or other distinguishing characteristic?

What you say has merit, but the RDA element is called “Profession or occupation” and there is no RDA requirement that it be something you’re paid to do. A hobby could be an occupation and if that’s what a person is known for it’s appropriate to record it in this element.

Bob

Robert L. Maxwell
Ancient Languages and Special Collections Librarian
6728 Harold B. Lee Library
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
(801)422-5568

From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> On Behalf Of Young,William C
Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2018 6:01 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Superheroes - profession/occupation or other distinguishing characteristic?

“The difference between me and this Great Lady is that my profession is her hobby.
My hobby is gardening, for which I do not expect to be paid”

Scylla, Head of the Guild of Prostitutes, comparing herself to the Empress Messalina.
I Claudius


Based on this, I consider a profession to be something one is paid for.  Anything else is a hobby.

•         Hank

William C. (Hank) Young
CONSER Coordinator
George A. Smathers Libraries
University of Florida

From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Janet Thomas
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 3:28 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Superheroes - profession/occupation or other distinguishing characteristic?

Do you have a 2nd 374 for the alter-ego’s occupation?
Is it an occupation if they’re not being paid?

Janet

From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Maxwell
Sent: Wednesday, August 8, 2018 3:12 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Superheroes - profession/occupation or other distinguishing characteristic?

I’ve generally used 368 for “Heroes” though I see plenty of the “Heroes” term recorded in 374 in the file. It also looks like “Superheroes” has been recorded in both fields (and at least once, incorrectly, in 372). “Superheroes” seems a little more like an occupation (374) than “Heroes”, but I think I’d use 368 for both “Heroes” and “Superheroes”.

Bob

Robert L. Maxwell
Ancient Languages and Special Collections Librarian
6728 Harold B. Lee Library
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
(801)422-5568

From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> On Behalf Of Adam L. Schiff
Sent: Wednesday, August 8, 2018 1:00 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Superheroes - profession/occupation or other distinguishing characteristic?

Hi Collective Wisdom,

I’m establishing the name of a superhero.  I’m wondering where to record the attribute that the person is a superhero.  In LCSH we have the heading Superheroes.  In NARs for individual superheroes, that has been recorded in either 374 (profession/occupation) or 368 $c (other attributes of person or corporate body).

RDA 9.16.1.1 has this definition: profession or occupation▼<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__access.rdatoolkit.org_document.php-3Fid-3Drdagloss-26target-3Drdaregistry.info-2DElements-2Da-2DP50104-23rdaregistry.info-2DElements-2Da-2DP50104&d=DwMFJg&c=pZJPUDQ3SB9JplYbifm4nt2lEVG5pWx2KikqINpWlZM&r=B8R2bbCC_DV9QGpqWgLBL6x4pN5m1ouGjVJXrYP-cIg&m=8NiN6f1dUlhdMHOZpoW_u3w5ZDs4uL--TsJ-V8aUvfM&s=tdiXqpm8OvlM5BLyE-TkYKJ0lNRnH7moSu5TZstulpQ&e=>: A person's vocation or avocation

RDA 9.6.1.1 has this definition: other designation associated with person▼<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__access.rdatoolkit.org_document.php-3Fid-3Drdagloss-26target-3Drdaregistry.info-2DElements-2Da-2DP50108-23rdaregistry.info-2DElements-2Da-2DP50108&d=DwMFJg&c=pZJPUDQ3SB9JplYbifm4nt2lEVG5pWx2KikqINpWlZM&r=B8R2bbCC_DV9QGpqWgLBL6x4pN5m1ouGjVJXrYP-cIg&m=8NiN6f1dUlhdMHOZpoW_u3w5ZDs4uL--TsJ-V8aUvfM&s=G0QsGPR46KSLRplSoghWgO6gHkwk8DPAijV2R4wBu2g&e=>: A term other than a title that is associated with a person

Merriam-Webster’s online dictionary has these definitions:

vocation 2 a : the work in which a person is employed : occupation<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.merriam-2Dwebster.com_dictionary_occupation&d=DwMFJg&c=pZJPUDQ3SB9JplYbifm4nt2lEVG5pWx2KikqINpWlZM&r=B8R2bbCC_DV9QGpqWgLBL6x4pN5m1ouGjVJXrYP-cIg&m=8NiN6f1dUlhdMHOZpoW_u3w5ZDs4uL--TsJ-V8aUvfM&s=bFmlaZz_EhbribFfWnB42eTxkuWzamVBUa8_K6yWR_E&e=>  b : the persons engaged in a particular occupation

avocation 1 : a subordinate occupation pursued in addition to one's vocation<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.merriam-2Dwebster.com_dictionary_vocation&d=DwMFJg&c=pZJPUDQ3SB9JplYbifm4nt2lEVG5pWx2KikqINpWlZM&r=B8R2bbCC_DV9QGpqWgLBL6x4pN5m1ouGjVJXrYP-cIg&m=8NiN6f1dUlhdMHOZpoW_u3w5ZDs4uL--TsJ-V8aUvfM&s=jCqV1exb2Md-1Oz9DF4hBJex274mb-eSdehR55xDvao&e=> especially for enjoyment : hobby<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.merriam-2Dwebster.com_dictionary_hobby&d=DwMFJg&c=pZJPUDQ3SB9JplYbifm4nt2lEVG5pWx2KikqINpWlZM&r=B8R2bbCC_DV9QGpqWgLBL6x4pN5m1ouGjVJXrYP-cIg&m=8NiN6f1dUlhdMHOZpoW_u3w5ZDs4uL--TsJ-V8aUvfM&s=Ud4s7xaPPzBzba3qxG1A9UTPXMtkScNcFUOrgVX9tug&e=>   2 : customary employment : vocation<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.merriam-2Dwebster.com_dictionary_vocation&d=DwMFJg&c=pZJPUDQ3SB9JplYbifm4nt2lEVG5pWx2KikqINpWlZM&r=B8R2bbCC_DV9QGpqWgLBL6x4pN5m1ouGjVJXrYP-cIg&m=8NiN6f1dUlhdMHOZpoW_u3w5ZDs4uL--TsJ-V8aUvfM&s=jCqV1exb2Md-1Oz9DF4hBJex274mb-eSdehR55xDvao&e=>

Is being a superhero a vocation or avocation?  My inclination is that it is not, and I should record Superheroes in 368 $c:

368 ## $c Superheroes $2 lcsh

Please discuss!

--Adam Schiff

Adam L. Schiff
Principal Cataloger
University of Washington Libraries
Cataloging & Metadata Services
Box 352900
Seattle, WA 98195-2900
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