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Hi Ben & Dennis,

I basically agree with Dennis, if you can find one of Ward Marston's CD transfers. They're both out of print. I found the Pearl set on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Gurrelieder-Poem-Ecstasy-Arnold-Schoenberg/dp/B000000WNR/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1537811139&sr=1-2&keywords=stokowski+gurrelieder

There's a copy of the Andante set on eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Philadelphia-Orchestra-1927-1940-Leopold-Stokowski-CD-Jan-2004-4-Discs-Andante/183448954007?epid=71525396&hash=item2ab668e497:g:apcAAOSwhINbpxd~

The auction expires in 10 hours and right now the bids are very low. 

There are also copies on Amazon, but only one at a sensible price:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B014I6UECU/ref=tmm_other_meta_binding_used_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=used&qid=1537811594&sr=1-3

Remember that the Pearl CDs contain the April 9, 1932 performance, recorded at 33 1/3-rpm and released on RCA Program Transcription set LM-127. The Andante set is the April 11 performance, recorded at 78-rpm and issued as M-127, with a few patches from opening night to fix a few mishaps. Ward Marston did both transfers. 

This transfer on Nuova Era...

https://www.amazon.com/Arnold-Schoenberg-Gurrelieder-Stokowski-1990-08-02/dp/B01KB1PPIY/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1537811202&sr=1-1&keywords=stokowski+gurrelieder

...was issued before the Pearl and Andante sets were released, so it was undoubtedly transferred from the RCA Victor LP reissues of April 11. Knowing that label, they probably took a bad transfer and made it even worse. It's probably close to worthless. 

As Dennis and I have both pointed out, the Victrolac pressings may look like vinyl, but they're not. They're VICTROLAC. 

Best,
Gary


-----Original Message-----
From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dennis Rooney
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 1:39 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Shoenberg: Gurrelieder Stokowski vinyl 78 M-127 tracking problems

Dear Ben,

In the interests of bringing this matter to a close:

M-127 is Victrolac, not vinyl. So, cleaning the discs with a compound
formulated for vinyl may not be effective.

Make sure to carefully inspect the stylus to determine it is free of any
resin. If not, you are guaranteed to have skips.

It may be necessary to clean each disc several times to obtain a clean
playback. The best results can be edited together.

HOWEVER, as others have opined, WHY BOTHER? Your own transfer can't
possible equal what has already been done. With respect, you lack both the
technical expertise and the experience in transferring disc source of this
type. I suggest that you focus your efforts where they can be most
effective.

DDR



On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 9:26 AM 6295LARGE <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Hi Donald,
>
> How are you?
>
> Thanks for clearing that up.  It IS interesting!
> I still have a tracking problem which is the original reason I posted here.
> I've tried many different styli, even LP, but they always skip.
> I looks like the grooves are jerky, but even if I play it at 45 or 33 so as
> to make the jerking less violent, they stylus still jumps forward.
> I've cleaned them with Nitty Gritty solution for vinyl, but to no avail.
>
> The records really feel like vinyl, but the label is the scrolled red
> label.  It has a VE at the top and bottom.
>
> Regards,
> Ben
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:11 PM Donald Tait <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > Hi Ben,
> >   There seems to be a bit of confusion.
> >
> >   As Dennis Rooney pointed out, the first pressings of Victor M-127, the
> > 78-rpm issue of Stokowski's recording of Gurrelieder, were made not with
> > standard shellac, but with the Victrolac compound (with the standard
> scroll
> > labels). I own one. If your discs play at 78 rpm, that is what you have,
> > too. All subsequent pressings of M-127 were made of standard shellac. The
> > version of Gurrelieder issued on the 33-1/3 rpm Program Transcription
> discs
> > in set LM-127 were also made of Victrolac, but as Rich Kaplan said, that
> is
> > a separate (and very scarce) set.
> >
> >   Don Tait
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: 6295LARGE <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: ARSCLIST <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Thu, Sep 20, 2018 12:03 pm
> > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Shoenberg: Gurrelieder Stokowski vinyl 78 M-127
> > tracking problems
> >
> > Hi Rich,
> > Thanks for the email, but It's not the Vitrolac.  It's M-127 with the
> > scrolled red label.
> > I guess it was  made after they invented vinyl, but it's terrible when I
> > try to play it.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Ben
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 3:52 PM Richard Kaplan <
> > [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Ben,
> > >
> > > From what you describe, what you have is almost certainly the Victrolac
> > > "Program Transcription" as Gary describes. How to tell: the album
> number
> > is
> > > LM-127 as opposed to simply M or DM; and, the discs have a silver label
> > as
> > > opposed to the standard red label for 78s. These are not "78s" at all,
> > but
> > > early long-play discs that were cut at 33.3. The set is quite rare.
> > >
> > > As for tracking, the grooves are narrower than those of regular 78s; my
> > > copy also mistracks with a standard 78 stylus. Mark Obert-Thorn
> > recommends
> > > a 2.0 mil stylus.
> > >
> > > Rich Kaplan
> > >
> > > In a message dated 9/19/2018 2:34:11 PM Central Standard Time,
> > > [log in to unmask] writes:
> > >
> > >
> > >  Hi Ben,
> > >
> > > I should have read your first sentence more carefully. What you
> describe
> > > as vinyl is actually Victrolac, a "thermoplastic resin" that Victor
> > > developed for the long-playing Program Transcriptions. There was quite
> a
> > > bit of discussion a few weeks back about Victrolac on this list.
> > >
> > > Is the stylus picking up any dirt? Dennis Rooney described a problem
> with
> > > Victrolac records oozing sticky gook into the grooves. Perhaps he can
> > > respond and refresh our memories on this.
> > >
> > > Gary
> > >
> > > ____________________________
> > >
> > > Gary Galo
> > > Audio Engineer Emeritus
> > > The Crane School of Music
> > > SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676
> > >
> > > "Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener."
> > > Arnold Schoenberg
> > >
> > > "A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be believed."
> > > Igor Markevitch
> > >
> > > "If you design an audio system based on the premise that nothing is
> > > audible,
> > > on that system nothing will be audible."
> > > G. Galo
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:
> > > [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of 6295LARGE
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 3:26 PM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Shoenberg: Gurrelieder Stokowski vinyl 78 M-127
> > > tracking problems
> > >
> > > Hi Gary,
> > >
> > > I never heard of Victrolac.
> > >  I'm sure the record is clean, because I just cleaned it.
> > > I cleaned it with "PURE 2 - Professional record cleaner from by "Nitty
> > > Gritty"
> > >
> > > I has the scroll label and it feels like vinyl. Is it not vinyl?
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Ben
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 3:17 PM Gary A. Galo <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Ben,
> > > >
> > > > Is this a Victrolac pressing with scroll labels, or regular shellac?
> My
> > > > Victrolac copy has a lot of crud in the grooves, a problem with that
> > > > material that was mentioned a few weeks back on this list. If this is
> > the
> > > > case, the records need a good cleaning.
> > > >
> > > > I also had, at one time, a post-war shellac pressing with RCA Victor
> > > > labels, and a banner-style cover on the album. I've used a 2.5 mil TE
> > on
> > > > both sets without problems.
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Gary
> > > >
> > > > ____________________________
> > > >
> > > > Gary Galo
> > > > Audio Engineer Emeritus
> > > > The Crane School of Music
> > > > SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676
> > > >
> > > > "Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener."
> > > > Arnold Schoenberg
> > > >
> > > > "A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be believed."
> > > > Igor Markevitch
> > > >
> > > > "If you design an audio system based on the premise that nothing is
> > > > audible,
> > > > on that system nothing will be audible."
> > > > G. Galo
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:
> > > > [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of 6295LARGE
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 3:07 PM
> > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > Subject: [ARSCLIST] Shoenberg: Gurrelieder Stokowski vinyl 78 M-127
> > > > tracking problems
> > > >
> > > > Hello everyone
> > > >
> > > > I never thought I'd have tracking problems with these beautiful vinyl
> > > 78s,
> > > > but i do.
> > > > I know they've been reissued on LP and CD, but, strange as it may
> > seem, I
> > > > need to have the 78's for transferring purposes.
> > > > The styli are jumping. I've even tried with a .7 mil stylus just to
> see
> > > if
> > > > it would track better.
> > > > I tried playing the records at 45 and 33, but the styli keep jumping
> > > > forward. It looks as though the grooves are jerky while the records
> > look
> > > > brand new.
> > > >
> > > > Has anyone ever come across this problem?
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Ben Roth
> > > > PLEASE respond to [log in to unmask]
> > > >
> > > > Thanks!
> > > >
> > >
> >
>


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