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Jeff, I think we could address this issue better if we had a real live use case, which I still don’t think we have.  I believe we are in agreement that you don’t want to supply the issn for a resource via the URI for that issn using bf:identifiedBy, but rather by the issn itself (using bf:identifiedBy)..  Would you agree?

I think we have also established that if the URI resolves to a description of a Work, and it happens to be a URI for an ISSN, you CAN say:

          <URI for issn>  a bf:Work

that is, you DO use the URI form, not a quoted string.  But you don’t want to express the fact that a given URI resolves to a description of a work using bf:identifiedBy.   Would you agree?

So then, what is a use case for supplying a URI via bf:identifiedBy?

Ray

On Feb 28, 2019, at 12:17 PM, Young,Jeff (OR) <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Is it BIBFRAME's intention to create a barrier from the linked data cloud by treating URIs as literals?

Jeff
From: Bibliographic Framework Transition Initiative Forum <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Svensson, Lars <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2019 7:43 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [BIBFRAME] When a bf:Identifier is a URI
 
Hi Ray,

On Friday, February 22, 2019 8:42 PM, Denenberg, Ray wrote:

> I’m still wondering why you’d want to do this:
> 
> some:resource bf:identifiedBy [
>          a some:type ;
>          rdf:value “ http://issn.org/resource/ISSN/1084-5305” ]
> 
> (quoted or not)
> 
> Vs.
> 
> some:resource bf:identifiedBy [
>          a bf:Issn ;
>          rdf:value “1084-5305” ]

You're right, Ray: I don't want to do the first when it comes to ISSNs. If, however, the canonical identifier for a resource happens to be a URI, I'd want to treat that URI as any other identifier and put it in quotes.

Best,

Lars

> 
> 
> From: Bibliographic Framework Transition Initiative Forum
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Svensson, Lars
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 11:26 AM
> To: mailto:[log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [BIBFRAME] When a bf:Identifier is a URI
> 
> Dan,
> 
> Re your question if „the requirement to quote the ISSN URI as a string when used
> as the bf:Issn object of bf:identifiedBy hold true?” :
> 
> My take would be that an instance of the class bf:Issn cannot be a quoted string
> since that would lead to a literal in the subject position:
> 
> some:resource bf:identifiedBy “http://issn.org/resource/ISSN/1234-5678#ISSN” .
> 
> which implies
> 
> “http://issn.org/resource/ISSN/1234-5678#ISSN” a bf:Issn .
> 
> since we have
> 
> bf:Issn rdfs:subClassOf bf:Identifier.
> 
> If we on the other hand have
> 
> some:resource bf:identifiedBy [
>          a bf:Issn ;
>          rdf:value “http://issn.org/resource/ISSN/1234-5678#ISSN” .
> ] .
> 
> we should be fine.
> 
> Or did I misunderstand your proposal?
> 
> Best,
> 
> Lars
> 
> *** Lesen. Hören. Wissen. Deutsche Nationalbibliothek ***
> --
> Dr. Lars G. Svensson
> Deutsche Nationalbibliothek
> Informationsinfrastruktur
> Adickesallee 1
> 60322 Frankfurt am Main
> Telefon: +49 69 1525-1752
> Telefax: +49 69 1525-1799
> mailto:[log in to unmask]
> http://www.dnb.de
> 
> From: Bibliographic Framework Transition Initiative Forum
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dan Scott
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 11:45 PM
> To: mailto:[log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [BIBFRAME] When a bf:Identifier is a URI
> 
> Ray et al:
> 
> Thank you to both the BIBFRAME mailing list and the LC BIBFRAME team for taking
> this seriously.
> 
> > Still, bibframe does not preclude declaring that a particular URI is an identifier for
> a particular resource (although we would still welcome a use case).
> 
> ISSNs have had dereferenceable URIs for almost two years now
> (https://www.issn.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/ISSN-
> LinkedDataApplicationProfile-v0_9.pdf). Does the requirement to quote the ISSN
> URI as a string when used as the bf:Issn object of bf:identifiedBy hold true?
> 
> Thanks,
> Dan
> 
> P.S. In a side channel, Sarven Capadisli pointed me at the 2017 document
> https://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/QuotingURIs.html which describes a rationale for
> quoting URIs in certain situations, where owl:sameAs may result in two different
> URIs no longer being distinguished properly. I found this helpful, although I don't
> think it comes into play here, as bf:identifiedBy does not make any owl:sameAs
> assertions that would trigger the detrimental outcomes outlined in the design note.
> 
> On Tue, 19 Feb 2019 at 15:58, Denenberg, Ray <mailto:[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> The LC bibframe team discussed this at length this morning.
> 
> There were only about four messages at the time and now there are now many
> more, too many to keep up with it all.  Among those early messages there seemed to
> be only this use case:
> 
> <http://example.org/2335409#Work> a bf:Text, bf:Work ;
>    bf:identifiedBy <http://worldcat.org/entity/work/id/638612>.
> 
> Which seems to say, there is a work, http://example.org/2335409#Work, at
> institution A, and this, http://worldcat.org/entity/work/id/638612, at institution B,
> is the same work.
> 
> (Nevermind what constitutes sameness -  whatever institution A considers it to
> be.  Could be matched based on author and title for example.)
> 
> We don’t think this is an appropriate use of
> bf:identifiedBy.     http://worldcat.org/entity/work/id/638612    doesn't identify
> http://example.org/2335409#Work. Rather, the assertion is that they are the same
> resource.
> 
> We recognize that there is a need to make such an assertion, that bibframe
> currently does not provide one, and we will investigate this further.
> 
> Still, bibframe does not preclude declaring that a particular URI is an identifier for a
> particular resource (although we would still welcome a use case).   As has been
> suggested, it should be quoted (a string) rather than a resource.  bf:identifiedBy is
> intended for string identifiers, not for identifiers that are themselves linked data
> resources.
> 
> Example:
> 
> <http://example.org/workA>
>        bf:identifiedBy [
>                    a   xs:anyURI ;
>                   rdf:value     “http://example.org/identifierA” ]
> 
> Ray
> 
> From: Bibliographic Framework Transition Initiative Forum
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Dan Scott
> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2019 7:45 PM
> To: mailto:[log in to unmask]
> Subject: [BIBFRAME] When a bf:Identifier is a URI
> 
> While the description for bf:Identifier
> (http://id.loc.gov/ontologies/bibframe.html#c_Identifier) is "Token or name that is
> associated with a resource, such as a URI or an ISBN", its subclasses include bf:Isbn
> but not bf:Uri[1].
> 
> For now I've interpreted this as "just use bf:Identifier if you have a URI," but if that
> interpretation is correct, it might make sense to clarify the description.
> 
> Example:
> 
> @prefix bf: <http://id.loc.gov/ontologies/bibframe/> .
> <http://example.org/2335409#Work> a bf:Text, bf:Work ;
>    bf:identifiedBy <http://worldcat.org/entity/work/id/638612>.
> 
> <http://worldcat.org/entity/work/id/638612> a bf:Identifier .