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I think Athena $c (Greek deity) $v Art $v Congresses COULD be correct if the publication contains a significant amount of reproductions of art depicting Athena. In other words, if the conference papers have a lot of illustrations with some commentary, then theoretically $v Art could be correct. But most likely it should be $x Art in the case of a conference proceeding. Adam Schiff University of Washington Libraries ________________________________ From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Charles Croissant <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 9:32 AM To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: $v Art vs $x Art Dear Yang, you are so right to point the focus here to the users of our records and away from us as catalogers. Your insight begs the question, Why are we as catalogers making all these subtle distinctions if we have no way of making them manifest to our users? I guess we have always been cataloging for some utopian future where all the data we so carefully encode will somehow become visible/useful to the users of our records. But I don't know whether we are any closer to realizing that goal today than we were at the inception of MARC. I would definitely be interested to hear whether Bibframe or other linked data initiatives provide a path towards making such distinctions as $x Art vs. $v Art visible to users. Charles ________________________________ From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Yang Wang <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 10:58 AM To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> Subject: [External] Re: [PCCLIST] $v Art vs $x Art Dear Charles, Thanks for sharing your observation and experience in this matter! The hyphenated phrase in your first sentence suddenly dawned on me that the subtle difference between the two is mostly invisible to OPAC users. I say mostly, because a few users may still want to see associated MARC bib records. A few institutions are not using MARC anymore. I don’t know how catalogers distinguish $v Art and $x Art as subdivisions. I was just wondering if those who use bibframe or some other types of programs for cataloging might be able to answer that and solve the “puzzle” for us. How do they convert such text strings to MARC format? Admittedly, for library users’ sake, the use of lcgft in added 655s can help alleviate the problem. Best regards, Yang From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Charles Croissant Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 10:59 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] $v Art vs $x Art Dear Yang, I'm sure you are correct that problems crept in in the course of trying to convert the 650 string Athena (Greek deity) in art to a 600 00 Athena (Greek deity)--Art. An additional thought: Aside from the text of H1100 which you reference, another problem at work here is that OCLC's validation algorithm is not (yet) sophisticated enough to fully distinguish between correct and incorrect use of $v in the situation you describe. Currently, both strings 600 00 Athena $c (Greek deity) $x Art $v Congresses and 600 00 Athena $c (Greek deity) $v Art $v Congresses will control/validate in OCLC, leading catalogers to assume that the subfielding $v Art $v Congresses is correct. It seems to me that generally, one can only make one statement about form in a given subject string, meaning that it is very rare to have two subfield $v's in succession, and generally, the subfield $v will be the final subdivision in the string. I know that there are some exceptions, such as under --Bibliography, for example sh 99001291 $v Bibliography $v Exhibitions (though I have sometimes wondered if the coding here shouldn't properly be $x Bibliography $v Exhibitions). All of this points up the difficulties catalogers have long struggled with in making the distinction between form and topicality in subject strings. Charles Croissant Saint Louis University ________________________________ From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Yang Wang <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 9:07 AM To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> Subject: [External] Re: [PCCLIST] $v Art vs $x Art Given that these bibs are rather old. It is entirely possible that catalogers didn’t make such mistakes. It was perhaps caused by OCLC’s quality control algorithms when they tried to convert 650 #0 Athena (Greek deity) in art $v Congresses 650 #0 Athena (Greek deity) in art $v Exhibitions to the current headings, resulting in a mixed bag. Just a thought. In any case, I suggest that H 1110 be edited either to list $x Art by itself or insert it in the current instruction. Yang From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> On Behalf Of Richard Amelung Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 9:02 AM To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] $v Art vs $x Art $v or $x Art How many times have we been to a museum, looked at an object and said, "But IS it art?" Unfortunately for Art, we have a code for what it IS and what it's ABOUT, but none recording the critic's eye indicating what it ISN'T! 😉 Richard C. Amelung, Ph. D., M.A.L.S. Professor Emeritus of Legal Research Vincent C. Immel Law Library Saint Louis University School of Law 100 N. Tucker Blvd. St. Louis, MO 63101-1930 Phone: 314.977.2743 Fax: 314.977.3966 ________________________________ From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Salisbury, Preston <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 7:56 AM To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> Subject: [External] Re: $v Art vs $x Art Maybe someone thought an exhibition was a congress of pictures? That only requires not understanding what a congress is and not knowing that there is a perfectly good subject heading that already exists. Or maybe x and v are just too close on the keyboard and the cataloger pushed the wrong one. We can hope... Preston Salisbury Assistant Professor and Monographic Cataloger Mississippi State University ________________________________ From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Kuperman, Aaron <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 7:44 AM To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] $v Art vs $x Art $v - is the form/genre; $x - is about the form genre. How you can have a Congress of $v is beyond me (perhaps the pictures got together at night after the museum closed and started conferring). Aaron Kuperman LC Law Cataloging Section This is NOT an official communication from my employer. ________________________________ From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Yang Wang <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 8:37 AM To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Subject: [PCCLIST] $v Art vs $x Art What is the difference between the following subject headings (Cf. bib (OCoLC) 52442717) vs (OCLC) 150835830)? Athena ‡c (Greek deity) ‡v Art ‡v Congresses Athena ‡c (Greek deity) ‡x Art ‡v Congresses And (Cf. (OCoLC) 45539635) vs (OCoLC) 466762391)? Athena ‡c (Greek deity) ‡v Art ‡v Exhibitions Athena ‡c (Greek deity) ‡x Art ‡v Exhibitions The SHM instruction under “H 1110 $v Art” seems to have been causing this problem on a massive scale in OCLC. The second part of the sentence where it states “[Use for] … or works for discussing such art” is perhaps the culprit. This part actually refers to the use of “$x Art” (lccn sh 99001934) and not “$v” (lccn sh 99001267). For the sake of clarity, why not insert “$x Art” somewhere in the text? Yang