Before $v was implemented in MARC 6XX fields, the form subdivision went in $x. I remember long ago being told by someone at LC that it was recommended practice to follow a topical $x with something else, e.g. $x History and criticism, when the term in $x would otherwise be last and could be mistaken for a form subdivision. That still seems to me like a wise idea. Stephen On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 2:49 PM Adam L Schiff <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > I think > Athena $c (Greek deity) $v Art $v Congresses > COULD be correct if the publication contains a significant amount of > reproductions of art depicting Athena. In other words, if the conference > papers have a lot of illustrations with some commentary, then theoretically > $v Art could be correct. But most likely it should be $x Art in the case > of a conference proceeding. > > Adam Schiff > University of Washington Libraries > ------------------------------ > *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]> on > behalf of Charles Croissant <[log in to unmask]> > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 31, 2020 9:32 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> > *Subject:* Re: $v Art vs $x Art > > Dear Yang, > > you are so right to point the focus here to the users of our records and > away from us as catalogers. Your insight begs the question, Why are we as > catalogers making all these subtle distinctions if we have no way of making > them manifest to our users? > > I guess we have always been cataloging for some utopian future where all > the data we so carefully encode will somehow become visible/useful to the > users of our records. But I don't know whether we are any closer to > realizing that goal today than we were at the inception of MARC. I would > definitely be interested to hear whether Bibframe or other linked data > initiatives provide a path towards making such distinctions as $x Art vs. > $v Art visible to users. > > Charles > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]> on > behalf of Yang Wang <[log in to unmask]> > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 31, 2020 10:58 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> > *Subject:* [External] Re: [PCCLIST] $v Art vs $x Art > > > Dear Charles, > > > > Thanks for sharing your observation and experience in this matter! The > hyphenated phrase in your first sentence suddenly dawned on me that the > subtle difference between the two is mostly invisible to OPAC users. I say > mostly, because a few users may still want to see associated MARC bib > records. > > > > A few institutions are not using MARC anymore. I don’t know how catalogers > distinguish $v Art and $x Art as subdivisions. I was just wondering if > those who use bibframe or some other types of programs for cataloging might > be able to answer that and solve the “puzzle” for us. How do they convert > such text strings to MARC format? > > > > Admittedly, for library users’ sake, the use of lcgft in added 655s can > help alleviate the problem. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Yang > > > > *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]> *On > Behalf Of *Charles Croissant > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 31, 2020 10:59 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: [PCCLIST] $v Art vs $x Art > > > > Dear Yang, > > > > I'm sure you are correct that problems crept in in the course of trying to > convert the 650 string Athena (Greek deity) in art to a 600 00 Athena > (Greek deity)--Art. > > > > An additional thought: > > Aside from the text of H1100 which you reference, another problem at work > here is that OCLC's validation algorithm is not (yet) sophisticated enough > to fully distinguish between correct and incorrect use of $v in the > situation you describe. > > > > Currently, both strings > > > > 600 00 Athena $c (Greek deity) $x Art $v Congresses > > and > > 600 00 Athena $c (Greek deity) $v Art $v Congresses > > > > will control/validate in OCLC, leading catalogers to assume that the > subfielding $v Art $v Congresses is correct. > > > > It seems to me that generally, one can only make one statement about form > in a given subject string, meaning that it is very rare to have two > subfield $v's in succession, and generally, the subfield $v will be the > final subdivision in the string. > > > > I know that there are some exceptions, such as under --Bibliography, for > example sh 99001291 $v Bibliography $v Exhibitions (though I have sometimes > wondered if the coding here shouldn't properly be $x Bibliography $v > Exhibitions). > > > > All of this points up the difficulties catalogers have long struggled with > in making the distinction between form and topicality in subject strings. > > > > Charles Croissant > > Saint Louis University > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]> on > behalf of Yang Wang <[log in to unmask]> > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 31, 2020 9:07 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> > *Subject:* [External] Re: [PCCLIST] $v Art vs $x Art > > > > Given that these bibs are rather old. It is entirely possible that > catalogers didn’t make such mistakes. It was perhaps caused by OCLC’s > quality control algorithms when they tried to convert > > > > 650 #0 Athena (Greek deity) in art $v Congresses > > 650 #0 Athena (Greek deity) in art $v Exhibitions > > > > to the current headings, resulting in a mixed bag. Just a thought. In any > case, I suggest that H 1110 be edited either to list $x Art by itself or > insert it in the current instruction. > > > > Yang > > > > *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]> *On > Behalf Of *Richard Amelung > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 31, 2020 9:02 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: [PCCLIST] $v Art vs $x Art > > > > $v or $x Art > > > > How many times have we been to a museum, looked at an object and said, > "But IS it *art*?" Unfortunately for Art, we have a code for what it > *IS* and what it's *ABOUT*, but none recording the critic's eye > indicating what it *ISN'T*! > > > > 😉 > > > > Richard C. Amelung, Ph. D., M.A.L.S. > > Professor Emeritus of Legal Research > > Vincent C. Immel Law Library > > Saint Louis University School of Law > > 100 N. Tucker Blvd. > > St. Louis, MO 63101-1930 > > Phone: 314.977.2743 > > Fax: 314.977.3966 > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]> on > behalf of Salisbury, Preston <[log in to unmask]> > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 31, 2020 7:56 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> > *Subject:* [External] Re: $v Art vs $x Art > > > > Maybe someone thought an exhibition was a congress of pictures? That only > requires not understanding what a congress is and not knowing that there is > a perfectly good subject heading that already exists. > > > > Or maybe x and v are just too close on the keyboard and the cataloger > pushed the wrong one. We can hope... > > > > Preston Salisbury > > Assistant Professor and Monographic Cataloger > > Mississippi State University > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]> on > behalf of Kuperman, Aaron <[log in to unmask]> > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 31, 2020 7:44 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> > *Subject:* Re: [PCCLIST] $v Art vs $x Art > > > > $v - is the form/genre; $x - is about the form genre. How you can have a > Congress of $v is beyond me (perhaps the pictures got together at night > after the museum closed and started conferring). > > > > Aaron Kuperman > > LC Law Cataloging Section > > This is NOT an official communication from my employer. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]> on > behalf of Yang Wang <[log in to unmask]> > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 31, 2020 8:37 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* [PCCLIST] $v Art vs $x Art > > > > What is the difference between the following subject headings (Cf. bib > (OCoLC) 52442717) vs (OCLC) 150835830)? > > > > Athena ‡c (Greek deity) ‡v Art ‡v Congresses > > Athena ‡c (Greek deity) ‡x Art ‡v Congresses > > > > And (Cf. (OCoLC) 45539635) vs (OCoLC) 466762391)? > > > > Athena ‡c (Greek deity) ‡v Art ‡v Exhibitions > > Athena ‡c (Greek deity) ‡x Art ‡v Exhibitions > > > > The SHM instruction under “H 1110 $v Art” seems to have been causing this > problem on a massive scale in OCLC. The second part of the sentence where > it states “[Use for] … or works for discussing such art” is perhaps the > culprit. This part actually refers to the use of “$x Art” (lccn sh > 99001934) and not “$v” (lccn sh 99001267). > > > > For the sake of clarity, why not insert “$x Art” somewhere in the text? > > > > Yang > > > -- Stephen Hearn, Metadata Strategist Data Management & Access, University Libraries University of Minnesota 170A Wilson Library (office) 160 Wilson Library (mail) 309 19th Avenue South Minneapolis, MN 55455 Ph: 612-625-2328 Fx: 612-625-3428 ORCID: 0000-0002-3590-1242