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Before $v was implemented in MARC 6XX fields, the form subdivision went in
$x. I remember long ago being told by someone at LC that it was recommended
practice to follow a topical $x with something else, e.g. $x History and
criticism, when the term in $x would otherwise be last and could be
mistaken for a form subdivision. That still seems to me like a wise idea.

Stephen

On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 2:49 PM Adam L Schiff <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> I think
> Athena $c (Greek deity) $v Art $v Congresses
> COULD be correct if the publication contains a significant amount of
> reproductions of art depicting Athena.  In other words, if the conference
> papers have a lot of illustrations with some commentary, then theoretically
> $v Art could be correct.  But most likely it should be $x Art in the case
> of a conference proceeding.
>
> Adam Schiff
> University of Washington Libraries
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]> on
> behalf of Charles Croissant <[log in to unmask]>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 31, 2020 9:32 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
> *Subject:* Re: $v Art vs $x Art
>
> Dear Yang,
>
> you are so right to point the focus here to the users of our records and
> away from us as catalogers. Your insight begs the question, Why are we as
> catalogers making all these subtle distinctions if we have no way of making
> them manifest to our users?
>
> I guess we have always been cataloging for some utopian future where all
> the data we so carefully encode will somehow become visible/useful to the
> users of our records. But I don't know whether we are any closer to
> realizing that goal today than we were at the inception of MARC. I would
> definitely be interested to hear whether Bibframe or other linked data
> initiatives provide a path towards making  such distinctions as $x Art vs.
> $v Art visible to users.
>
> Charles
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]> on
> behalf of Yang Wang <[log in to unmask]>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 31, 2020 10:58 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
> *Subject:* [External] Re: [PCCLIST] $v Art vs $x Art
>
>
> Dear Charles,
>
>
>
> Thanks for sharing your observation and experience in this matter! The
> hyphenated phrase in your first sentence suddenly dawned on me that the
> subtle difference between the two is mostly invisible to OPAC users. I say
> mostly, because a few users may still want to see associated MARC bib
> records.
>
>
>
> A few institutions are not using MARC anymore. I don’t know how catalogers
> distinguish $v Art and $x Art as subdivisions. I was just wondering if
> those who use bibframe or some other types of programs for cataloging might
> be able to answer that and solve the “puzzle” for us. How do they convert
> such text strings to MARC format?
>
>
>
> Admittedly, for library users’ sake, the use of lcgft in added 655s can
> help alleviate the problem.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
>
> Yang
>
>
>
> *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]> *On
> Behalf Of *Charles Croissant
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 31, 2020 10:59 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: [PCCLIST] $v Art vs $x Art
>
>
>
> Dear Yang,
>
>
>
> I'm sure you are correct that problems crept in in the course of trying to
> convert the 650 string Athena (Greek deity) in art to a 600 00 Athena
> (Greek deity)--Art.
>
>
>
> An additional thought:
>
> Aside from the text of H1100 which you reference, another problem at work
> here is that OCLC's validation algorithm is not (yet) sophisticated enough
> to fully distinguish between correct and incorrect use of $v in the
> situation you describe.
>
>
>
> Currently, both strings
>
>
>
> 600 00 Athena $c (Greek deity) $x Art $v Congresses
>
> and
>
> 600 00 Athena $c (Greek deity) $v Art $v Congresses
>
>
>
> will control/validate in OCLC, leading catalogers to assume that the
> subfielding $v Art $v Congresses is correct.
>
>
>
> It seems to me that generally, one can only make one statement about form
> in a given subject string, meaning that it is very rare to have two
> subfield $v's in succession, and generally, the subfield $v will be the
> final subdivision in the string.
>
>
>
> I know that there are some exceptions, such as under --Bibliography, for
> example sh 99001291 $v Bibliography $v Exhibitions (though I have sometimes
> wondered if the coding here shouldn't properly be $x Bibliography $v
> Exhibitions).
>
>
>
> All of this points up the difficulties catalogers have long struggled with
> in making the distinction between form and topicality in subject strings.
>
>
>
> Charles Croissant
>
> Saint Louis University
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]> on
> behalf of Yang Wang <[log in to unmask]>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 31, 2020 9:07 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
> *Subject:* [External] Re: [PCCLIST] $v Art vs $x Art
>
>
>
> Given that these bibs are rather old. It is entirely possible that
> catalogers didn’t make such mistakes. It was perhaps caused by OCLC’s
> quality control algorithms when they tried to convert
>
>
>
> 650 #0 Athena (Greek deity) in art $v Congresses
>
> 650 #0 Athena (Greek deity) in art $v Exhibitions
>
>
>
> to the current headings, resulting in a mixed bag. Just a thought. In any
> case, I suggest that H 1110 be edited either to list $x Art by itself or
> insert it in the current instruction.
>
>
>
> Yang
>
>
>
> *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]> *On
> Behalf Of *Richard Amelung
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 31, 2020 9:02 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: [PCCLIST] $v Art vs $x Art
>
>
>
> $v or $x   Art
>
>
>
> How many times have we been to a museum, looked at an object and said,
> "But IS it *art*?"      Unfortunately for Art, we have a code for what it
> *IS* and what it's *ABOUT*, but none recording the critic's eye
> indicating what it *ISN'T*!
>
>
>
> 😉
>
>
>
> Richard C. Amelung, Ph. D., M.A.L.S.
>
> Professor Emeritus of Legal Research
>
> Vincent C. Immel Law Library
>
> Saint Louis University School of Law
>
> 100 N. Tucker Blvd.
>
> St. Louis, MO   63101-1930
>
> Phone:  314.977.2743
>
> Fax:   314.977.3966
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]> on
> behalf of Salisbury, Preston <[log in to unmask]>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 31, 2020 7:56 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
> *Subject:* [External] Re: $v Art vs $x Art
>
>
>
> Maybe someone thought an exhibition was a congress of pictures? That only
> requires not understanding what a congress is and not knowing that there is
> a perfectly good subject heading that already exists.
>
>
>
> Or maybe x and v are just too close on the keyboard and the cataloger
> pushed the wrong one. We can hope...
>
>
>
> Preston Salisbury
>
> Assistant Professor and Monographic Cataloger
>
> Mississippi State University
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]> on
> behalf of Kuperman, Aaron <[log in to unmask]>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 31, 2020 7:44 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
> *Subject:* Re: [PCCLIST] $v Art vs $x Art
>
>
>
> ​$v - is the form/genre; $x - is about the form genre.  How you can have a
> Congress of $v is beyond me (perhaps the pictures got together at night
> after the museum closed and started conferring).
>
>
>
> Aaron Kuperman
>
> LC Law Cataloging Section
>
> This is NOT an official communication from my employer.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]> on
> behalf of Yang Wang <[log in to unmask]>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 31, 2020 8:37 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* [PCCLIST] $v Art vs $x Art
>
>
>
> What is the difference between the following subject headings (Cf. bib
> (OCoLC) 52442717) vs (OCLC) 150835830)?
>
>
>
> Athena ‡c (Greek deity) ‡v Art ‡v Congresses
>
> Athena ‡c (Greek deity) ‡x Art ‡v Congresses
>
>
>
> And (Cf. (OCoLC) 45539635) vs (OCoLC) 466762391)?
>
>
>
> Athena ‡c (Greek deity) ‡v Art ‡v Exhibitions
>
> Athena ‡c (Greek deity) ‡x Art ‡v Exhibitions
>
>
>
> The SHM instruction under “H 1110 $v Art” seems to have been causing this
> problem on a massive scale in OCLC. The second part of the sentence where
> it states “[Use for] … or works for discussing such art” is perhaps the
> culprit. This part actually refers to the use of “$x Art” (lccn sh
> 99001934) and not “$v” (lccn sh 99001267).
>
>
>
> For the sake of clarity, why not insert “$x Art” somewhere in the text?
>
>
>
> Yang
>
>
>


-- 
Stephen Hearn, Metadata Strategist
Data Management & Access, University Libraries
University of Minnesota
170A Wilson Library (office)
160 Wilson Library (mail)
309 19th Avenue South
Minneapolis, MN 55455
Ph: 612-625-2328
Fx: 612-625-3428
ORCID:  0000-0002-3590-1242