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--- Cellphone: 347-504-5311 Follow photography at www.instagram.com/geraldseligman.photo/ Home address: 123 Mallory Road Ghent, NY 12075 > On Nov 22, 2021, at 9:52 PM, Tim Gillett <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Hi Corey, > > I've had similar tapes. I suspect that mixup of formats was quite > common at least with domestic recordings. It's a reason I'm reluctant > to part with a 1/4" 4 track / 4 channel machine, and another 1/4" > 8 track 8 channel machine. They're really good for quickly > identifying what formats tapes were recorded in, including messy ones > like you had. If I cant quite tell what's going on by listening alone, > the level meters usually clarify it. > > Cheers > > Tim. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "CBAUDIO" <[log in to unmask]> > To:<[log in to unmask]> > Cc: > Sent:Tue, 23 Nov 2021 00:58:55 +0000 > Subject:Re: [ARSCLIST] Brittle Acetate Tapes (was 220V/50Hz 1/4" Open > Reel Audio Playback Decks) > > A few years ago, I transferred a couple of 3" & some 5" reel-to-reel > tapes that had me really chasing my tail. The tapes were used as > mailers > for communication between a soldier & his parents during the Viet Nam > > era. All of the recording was done consertively at 3-3/4 IPS so, it > was > impossible to read with a magnetic viewer. Turns out that the soldier > > bought a deck overseas that was 1/4 track & his parents had a deck > that > was half track mono. So, the tapes had both formats recorded on them. > > Whew! > CB > Corey Bailey Audio Engineering > www.baileyzone.net > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Tim Gillett" <[log in to unmask]> > To: [log in to unmask] > Sent: 11/22/2021 4:20:53 PM > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Brittle Acetate Tapes (was 220V/50Hz 1/4" > Open > Reel Audio Playback Decks) > >> Hi Abhi and Richard, >> >> Abhi, with your Lafayette tape recordings have you tried looking >> at the recorded magnetic patterns using a suitable magnetic reader > or >> viewer? >> >> Richard, another machine, the Sony 521 had a small lever at the > front >> labelled "4 track/2 track" which altered (only) the head height to >> allow a compromise playback of half track stereo tapes. Seemingly >> like the Wollensak, it places the quarter track stereo head pole >> pieces in the centre of the half track stereo position. Like the >> Wollensak it didnt correspondingly alter erase head height so there >> was potential to accidentally leave the lever in the wrong position >> when making a recording. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Tim >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List" >> <[log in to unmask]> >> To:<[log in to unmask]> >> Cc: >> Sent:Mon, 22 Nov 2021 15:42:24 -0500 >> Subject:Re: [ARSCLIST] Brittle Acetate Tapes (was 220V/50Hz 1/4" > Open >> Reel Audio Playback Decks) >> >> Hi, Corey and Abhi, >> >> In late 1962 or early 1963 (I recorded hours of JFK's funeral audio >> on >> it 58 years ago this week), I bought a Wollensak T-1616-4. It was a >> really odd duck, but worked reasonably well. >> >> It had a quarter track stereo combo record/play head made by Shure. > I >> >> don't recall the erase head. It had one complete channel of >> record/play >> electronics from mic in to 10 W power amp. There was an add-in >> one-tube >> chassis that was the head preamp which needed to feed a separate >> amp-speaker combination. While there was a small power transformer, >> the >> 10 W power amplifier was modeled after the AC/DC table radios and > had >> >> the whole power amp run directly off the mains. >> >> This shows some pictures of the 1616-4 >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/313588550900 (not my auction) >> and I've collected a few things that I have here: >> > <https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7wvowq62e9o5d17/AADOA9TqRJCej268l9wmj1kUa?dl=0> >> >> The T-1515-4 manual shows at the end the track alignments, and the >> eBay >> photos above show the track wheel. Other manuals in the folder > might >> provide a better exploded view of the head assembly. >> >> While there are differences between the 1500 and the 1600 it is >> mostly >> in the transport control. The 1600 was solenoid controlled for more >> remote control and a lighter touch on the keys The 1600 could also >> (with >> the help of 1/8-inch foil tape) do auto repeat. >> The 1500 was introduced in 1959 and the 1600 in 1960 >> >> I started to go thru the math of the head height adjustment to see >> how >> it worked out. It does work. So if you want to get caught up with >> mils >> (thousandths of an inch), have at it. Otherwise look at the > pictures >> in >> the manual at the Dropbox link. >> >> In the head assembly, there was an "elevator" arrangement (hence I >> knew >> that was possible when I had John French make one for my APR-5000 >> with >> an 8-track four-channel head). The Wollensak elevator was run by a >> Delrin disk which protruded out of the side of the head assembly > and >> was >> marked A 2TR B. In the A position, the quarter track R/P head (and >> presumably the erase head) was positioned so that the left head >> channel >> aligned with track 1 and the right head channel aligned with track > 3. >> In >> 2TR, the head was lowered slightly, presumably just enough so that >> the >> two quarter track head channels were completely on the professional > 2 >> >> track tracks. This would probably have been adjusted for 75 mil >> tracks, >> since Ampex sort of ruled the roost in that era. >> >> One can check if this was even possible by looking at >> https://www.richardhess.com/tape/quarterinch_lrg.gif >> >> Quarter track has 43 mil tracks and centre-to-centre of the 1/3 >> stereo >> pair at 134 mils. That implies 24 mil guard bands... >> Checking that math, 43x4+24x3 = 244 mils out to out. >> >> Doing the same with the Ampex format, the two tracks are on 156 mil >> centres and the track is 75 mils, so the guard band is 81 mils. > This >> gives an out-to-out dimension of 231 mils. >> >> Normally, the top of the quarter track right channel head would be >> 137 >> mils from the top edge of a 250 mil tape, and the bottom of the > left >> channel would be 46 mils below the top of the tape. >> >> The Ampex 2-track tape would have the bottom of the left channel > 84.5 >> >> mils below the top of the tape and the top of the right channel > 165.5 >> >> mils below the top of the tape. >> >> So depressing the quarter track head assembly by 28.5 mils would > just >> >> put the top of the right head at the top of the Ampex two track > right >> >> channel. >> >> This would put the bottom of the quarter track left channel at 74.5 >> mils >> below the top of the tape, which allows a 10 mil window, so the > ideal >> >> depression for the 2 TR position would be 33.5 mils. >> >> Continuing on, in order to go to the B position, the full 134 mil >> centre-to-centre spacing of the quarter track stereo pair would > have >> to >> be covered, or the distance between 2 TR and B would be 100.5 mil >> >> Roughly, the A-2TR is roughly 1/4 of the total depression and the >> 2TR-B >> depression is 3/4 of the total which is in keeping with what I >> recall--it was harder to go to B as you were fighting a spring. >> >> The actual elevator mechanism was a ramp molded into the bottom > face >> of >> the Delrin wheel and a small ball that ran in a cup at the top of a >> post >> on the head assembly. >> >> Being a fully mechanical assembly, this would not reset on power on >> so >> you'd record in the position that it was left in, and I suspect > that >> this little assembly wasn't stable after many uses. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Richard >> >> On 2021-11-22 2:31 p.m., CBAUDIO wrote: >>> I have about 90 tapes in the studio that were recorded on a >> Wollensak >>> model 1500. That particular model was 1/2 track, mono. >>> >>> Best, >>> CB >>> Corey Bailey Audio Engineering >>> www.baileyzone.net >>> >>> ------ Original Message ------ >>> From: "Abhimonyu Deb" >> <[log in to unmask]> >>> To: [log in to unmask] >>> Sent: 11/22/2021 2:00:44 AM >>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Brittle Acetate Tapes (was 220V/50Hz 1/4" >> Open >>> Reel Audio Playback Decks) >>> >>>> Hi Tim and Richard, >>>> Tim, the Lafayette tapes were recorded on a Wollensak recorder. >> I'm >>>> afraid I don't know much more than that. However, I suspect that >> the >>>> tracks 2 and 3 vs. tracks 1 and 4 issue is due to lack of >> maintenance >>>> of the recorder during the 4 or 5 years that the recordings were >> made >>>> rather than any compatibility issue between different formats. >>>> That's because the tracks issue isn't consistent across all of > the >> tapes. >>>> There's another factor that might be significant. Like I said, I >> am of >>>> Indian origin. My uncle (father's brother) went to the U.S. as a >>>> graduate student in 1958 and came back to India in 1960, > bringing >> the >>>> Wollensak and 12 Lafayette blank tapes with him. At the time, it >> was >>>> almost as if he brought a spaceship from Mars! >>>> My father says that they never demagnetized the heads. They did >> clean >>>> the heads regularly but sometimes it was with aftershave lotion >>>> (gasp!) or something similar. >>>> The tapes are numbered 1 to 12 and were recorded mostly in that >> sequence. >>>> If I had to find a pattern, it would be that the earlier > recorded >>>> tapes are generally better on track 1 and later tapes are >> generally >>>> better on track 2. >>>> Richard, I had read about your experience with the carbonyl iron >> tape >>>> in one of your papers a year or two ago (or maybe on your > blog?). >> I >>>> tried your solution myself more than once, also with varying >> degrees >>>> of success. >>>> From my experience, I can't find any pattern to the cupping >> problem. >>>> Could it be a maintenance issue? There was no cupping problem at >> all >>>> with the EMI acetates in Gramophone Company of India's archive. >>>> On the other hand, I have seen this problem consistently on > tapes >> from >>>> other sources and of varying brands that were not well > maintained. >> My >>>> Lafayette tapes have no cupping problem at all. They were just >> kept on >>>> a bookshelf (in their boxes) for the past 50 years. >>>> The whole subject is really mysterious and so much fun! >>>> Best wishes, >>>> Abhi >>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> Abhimonyu DebAudio Consultant and Digitization >>>> Specialisthttps://www.linkedin.com/in/abhimonyudeb >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sunday, 21 November, 2021, 11:48:43 pm IST, Richard L. >> Hess >>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi, Abhi and Tim, >>>> >>>> Great discussion. The cupping is a real issue, but so is edge >> waviness. >>>> >>>> On the suggestion of Friedrich Engel (retired BASF Historian), I >> once >>>> reviewed the only carbonyl iron tape I've ever seen. This was > one >> of the >>>> first Magnetophon experimental tapes from circa 1935. It was so >> badly >>>> cupped that it was like a carpenter's steel tape and could > support >>>> itself extending from the reel. >>>> >>>> Hydration was Herr Engel's suggestion, I tried about 24 hours > with >> the >>>> tape in a pancake form on a support over about an inch of water > in >> a >>>> sealed container. It ran beautifully and was more like a satin >> ribbon >>>> than a tape measure. >>>> >>>> HOWEVER, I have repeated that once or twice since with far less >> success. >>>> The hydration probably reduces the strength of the tape. >>>> >>>> The worst over-hydration I've ever seen was a damp 1-inch Scotch >> 201 >>>> acetate tape. The acetate had swollen so much that the first > half >> inch >>>> at the hub had been deformed and the closest layers had been >> forced >>>> through the slot of the hub, causing a bump. Of course it was >> worse on >>>> the track one side (which was recorded while only about five >> tracks had >>>> been used) and the tape had been wound tails out so the pack was >> tight >>>> and the first song of the album was most damaged! >>>> >>>> I put a pressure pad hard against the head (while adding extra >> pressure >>>> to the pinch roller to keep the tape on speed). My hands were > very >>>> cramped a half hour later. Then Paul MacDonald from Cape Breton >> Island, >>>> Nova Scotia who is a musician and excellent recording/mastering >>>> engineer, spent days with it picking out a similar piece of > music >> to >>>> cover the bumps using Sound Blade software. It turned out >> beautifully. >>>> >>>> If the edges are wavy, then certainly tracks 2 and 3 would be a >> better >>>> choice, if the cupping is tamable. >>>> >>>> It is such a difficult line to draw between doing no harm to the >>>> original and capturing the best possible transfer which will >> likely be >>>> the last transfer made (unless you really miss the mark). If you >> are >>>> doing risky procedures, it is important to inform the clients >> about the >>>> problems and risks before proceeding. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> Richard >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2021-11-21 4:55 a.m., Tim Gillett wrote: >>>>> Hi Abhi, >>>>> >>>>> I suspect your experience with the old acetates is common. When >>>>> brittle they can break easily but at least they break cleanly >> and >>>>> can be spliced back together again. The other issue which is >> common >>>>> is "cupping" on the oxide side. The top and bottom edges of the >> tape >>>>> are OK on the tape head but the centre section doesnt want to >> sit flat >>>>> so the sound is often muffled or weak. We can increase the tape >>>>> tension across the head but it risks breaking the tape. >> Sometimes >>>>> a temporary felt pressure pad, or small artist's brush, or even >> a >>>>> fingertip as you did can be used to press the centre section >> against >>>>> the head. >>>>> >>>>> The problem you mentioned with the Lafayette acetates could be >> that >>>>> they were recorded on a Brush Soundmirror machine which only >> recorded >>>>> in the centre of the tape, leaving the top and bottom edges >>>>> unrecorded. A "cupped" acetate tape is the worst for this as it >> keeps >>>>> that most important part of the tape off the head. The reason >> the >>>>> Studer machine didnt play them well is probably that it was an >> NAB >>>>> half track machine which would have missed the centre part of >> the >>>>> tape. You're right that tracks 2 and 3 of a quarter track >> machine >>>>> would read it much better. Actually a very good playback >> can be >>>>> obtained from a Soundmirror tape with a four track (four >> channel) 1/4" >>>>> head using tracks 2 and 3. >>>>> >>>>> Best wishes, >>>>> >>>>> Tim Gillett >>>>> >>>>> Perth, Western Australia >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List" >>>>> <[log in to unmask]> >>>>> To:<[log in to unmask]> >>>>> Cc: >>>>> Sent:Sun, 21 Nov 2021 04:58:17 +0000 >>>>> Subject:Re: [ARSCLIST] 220V/50Hz 1/4" Open Reel Audio Playback >> Decks >>>>> >>>>> Hi Richard, >>>>> Wow! You have no idea what it means for a little guy like me >> to >>>>> contribute to this forum! >>>>> First, just a very quick background. Although I was born and >> brought >>>>> up in the U.S., I spent all of my adult and professional life >> in India >>>>> (I am of Indian origin). >>>>> I used to work in the recording studio of the Gramophone >> Company of >>>>> India. It used to be a wholly owned subsidiary of the GC of UK. >> Later >>>>> it became independent. >>>>> GC of India has a tape archive with acetates starting from >> around >>>>> 1955. They are almost entirely EMI tapes and are in excellent >>>>> condition. There’s no problem of brittleness and they play >> fine on >>>>> A80’s and 807’s. >>>>> >>>>> Now I work independently, usually with smaller archives or >> individual >>>>> collections. The name brand tapes that I get, e.g. Scotch 111 >> or >>>>> 141, usually play fine on my A807. However, given the tropical >>>>> climate in India and the lack of maintenance of the tapes, >> warping is >>>>> a frequent problem. >>>>> A few years ago, I inherited a dozen Lafayette brand tapes >> from my >>>>> uncle. The tapes were purchased in 1960 and recorded between >> 1961 to >>>>> 1965. >>>>> These tapes are mostly brittle. Instead of A807, for most of >> these >>>>> tapes I had to use an Akai GX-4000D quarter track deck to play >> half >>>>> track recordings. Yes, I know I broke every rule in the book >> but I >>>>> couldn't think of any other way. >>>>> Interestingly, for some of these tapes played on the Akai, I >> got a >>>>> better playback from tracks 2 and 3 compared to tracks 1 and 4. >> Of >>>>> course, I had to reverse them on my DAW. >>>>> A few years ago I got an acetate similar to your Vermont tape. >> I >>>>> actually had to unwind several hundred feet of tape from the >> reel, >>>>> somehow thread the tape onto my Akai without any reels on >> either side, >>>>> and hold my index finger softly against the playback head while >>>>> playing. >>>>> So, basically, the brittle acetates that I've encountered are >> due to >>>>> lack of maintenance or a cheap brand of tape. >>>>> Coming back to Dave's original post, I was thinking to myself >> when I >>>>> first read it that it might be nearly impossible to find a >> machine >>>>> that can satisfy all of his conditions. But, then, I don't have >> any >>>>> experience with the ATR 100 or APR-5000. >>>>> >>>>> Best wishes, >>>>> Abhi (short for Abhimonyu) >>>>> ------------------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> Abhimonyu DebAudio Consultant and Digitization >>>>> Specialisthttps://www.linkedin.com/in/abhimonyudeb >>>>> >>>>> On Saturday, 20 November, 2021, 09:53:59 pm IST, Richard L. >> Hess >>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi, Abbimonyu, >>>>> >>>>> This issue comes up in regard to many different machines. When >> I had >>>>> my >>>>> A80s, I used them for acetate tapes on a regular basis. I >> haven't >>>>> used >>>>> an A807 for a long time (as I preferred the A810 over the A807 >> for >>>>> many >>>>> reasons, and the A80 over the A810). >>>>> >>>>> In many respects, I think that the Sony APR-5000 is the >> gentlest of >>>>> the >>>>> list I posted. On the other hand, I had no bad feedback from >> the >>>>> two >>>>> A807s (refurbished by Roger Ginsley) that were sold into an >> archiving >>>>> >>>>> project in Pakistan to use alongside their Tascam BR-20s >> (which I did >>>>> >>>>> not suggest for the current project because many versions were >> not >>>>> made >>>>> with power supply voltage selection). >>>>> >>>>> However, to answer Tim Gillette's rephrasing of the question, >> we >>>>> might >>>>> consider machines that start the capstan motor when going into >> play >>>>> so >>>>> you are not banging the stopped tape into the full-speed >> capstan. The >>>>> >>>>> Sony APR-5000 works that way and mutes the audio for a short >> period >>>>> of >>>>> time at startup. >>>>> >>>>> You weren't missing something and it is good that you posted. >> Perhaps >>>>> I >>>>> didn't provide enough weight to that criteria. >>>>> >>>>> I'd be interested in hearing more about the fragile acetate >> tapes >>>>> that >>>>> you encounter as I've been surprised at how well the Scotch >> 111 and >>>>> Audio Devices acetate tapes have held up. I've even been >> pleased with >>>>> >>>>> the paper tapes I've transferred as well. The only really >> fragile >>>>> acetate tape I've come across was one that sat behind a wood >> stove >>>>> through several Vermont winters. One face was welded together >> and >>>>> broke >>>>> on ever rotation of the supply reel. >>>>> >>>>> The one thing that seems to fail for me are splices onto paper >>>>> leader. I >>>>> have to remake all those splices after baking in many >> instances, but >>>>> that's with back-coated polyester tapes. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> >>>>> Richard >>>>> >>>>> On 2021-11-19 8:41 p.m., Abhimonyu Deb wrote: >>>>>> Given the notable list of people who have replied so far, >> normally >>>>> I would keep my mouth shut. >>>>>> However, I do think everyone is missing an important point. >>>>>> >>>>>> Dave mentions that the machine should be able to play >> fragile >>>>> acetate tapes. The A80’s, 807’s and Otari 5050’s that >> I’ve >>>>> worked with would fail miserably here unless I’m missing >> something. >>>>>> Abhimonyu Debhttp://linkedin.com/in/abhimonyudeb >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Saturday, November 20, 2021, 6:42 AM, James Perrett >>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, 20 Nov 2021 at 00:55, Richard L. Hess >>>>> <[log in to unmask]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Long ago, a company I think called >>>>>>> "DarkLab" in Germany made EIA to DIN adapters out of >> plastic. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> They still make them and sell them on Ebay. I bought some a >> few >>>>> months ago >>>>>> but haven't used them yet. >>>>>> >>>>>> James. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Richard L. Hess email: >>>>> [log in to unmask] >>>>> Aurora, Ontario, >> Canada 647 >>>>> 479 2800 >>>>> http://www.richardhess.com/tape/contact.htm >>>>> Track Format - Speed - Equalization - Azimuth - Noise >> Reduction >>>>> Quality tape transfers -- even from hard-to-play tapes. >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------- >>>>> Email sent using Optus Webmail >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Richard L. Hess email: >> [log in to unmask] >>>> Aurora, Ontario, >> Canada 647 479 >> 2800 >>>> http://www.richardhess.com/tape/contact.htm >>>> Track Format - Speed - Equalization - Azimuth - Noise Reduction >>>> Quality tape transfers -- even from hard-to-play tapes. >>>> >> >> -- >> Richard L. Hess email: [log in to unmask] >> Aurora, Ontario, Canada 647 479 2800 >> http://www.richardhess.com/tape/contact.htm >> Track Format - Speed - Equalization - Azimuth - Noise Reduction >> Quality tape transfers -- even from hard-to-play tapes. >> >> ------------------------- >> Email sent using Optus Webmail > > ------------------------- > Email sent using Optus Webmail