As many of you will have noticed, SF-LIT was been having some problems since Monday. A change in some software caused the system to not recognize me and thus I could not approve any messages. But I do have everything that was sent and I will start approving it now. I am sorry this took so long and thank you for your patience. Colleen Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT [log in to unmask] From cstu Wed Jun 14 13:57:06 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA20578; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 13:57:06 -0400 Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 06:41:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: From Andy Sawyer: A Heinlein speech Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 13:57:04 -0400 (EDT) Resent-From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> Resent-To: [log in to unmask] Resent-Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: A Heinlein speech Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 17:25:34 +0100 (BST) Does anyone know details of a speech Robert A Heinlein gave to the Naval Academy in the 1970s? Is it in print anywhere? -- Andy Sawyer, Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK 0151-794-2733/2696 [log in to unmask] http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html "Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) From cstu Wed Jun 14 14:03:37 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA72748; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 14:03:37 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 14:03:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: From Joe de Beauchamp: geston Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 09:33:40 -0700 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: geston The Siege of Wonder by Mark S. Geston 'I desire no other monument than the laughter of the madmen I have caused to set loose upon the universe'. This is the cannon which will greet you at the beginning of Mark S. Geston's fourth novel. Mark S. Geston wrote Lords of the Starship, Out of the Mouth of the Dragon, The Day Star, and The Siege of Wonder. These were written in 1967, 1969, 1972, and 1976. Recently, Mr. Geston completed his fifth novel, nearly twenty years later, Mirror to the Sky, 1992, and can be found at Barnes and Noble Bookstore. The Siege of Wonder can be collected in hard back by the publisher Doubleday, and the paper back version was done by Dawn Books. In 1945 C.S. Lewis published the third novel in a Trilogy, That Hideous Strength. Lewis attributed the novel to his long time friend J.R.R. Tollkien. He sees similar ideas in of the writing of Mr. Olaf Stapledon's Star Maker. I thought of That Hideous Strength when I read The Siege of Wonder. Both novels are crafted exquisitely and in a lyrical quality. Lewis, of course, was and English professor in England, and this explains his eloquent style, a constant ivory tower environment. Geston is the son of a book reviewer, English major, journalist mother. Even though Geston has some precursor talent from his antecedent, his flair for words far transcends his given aptitude. When you read this novel, it is an eminent achievement, by Geston, to write novels of high caliber Science Fiction. His position will be in high standing, as he becomes more recognized. The content of both works revolves around magic and myth. Both novels have conflicts between legends, and the real world. There are mythical creatures in the novels. The contrast is in Lewis's desire to treat Christianity. The primary direction of That Hideous Strength is to explain good and evil. Geston explores the realm of reason, logic, and fact. The Siege of Wonder begins with war between men and folklore. Mankind is using science to decipher the content of our lore's existence. Humanity discovered, many years before the war, certain formulas which allow the duplication of our fable's powers. Now in this distant future, we are able to combat the necromancy of the wizards. We will analyze each electron, spectrum of light, and dimension of resource which our legends have used. Then, the men of power will broadcast the magician's essence, in order to defeat them. Fight fire with fire. These "wonders" are driven back, and eventually loose. The world finishes in practical information, without beautiful stories to tell. There are no heroics. The void is filled with computers, antennae, and raw logic. The men coldly calculated their job, and sacrificed the dimension beyond our perception. We defined everything. We categorized until there were no allegories left to tell. Science reigns to the defeat of fiction. Rationalization will become the religion of this futurist existence. Effects will have their causes. Arguments will have their proofs. Truth and knowledge will rule, and reality will be precisely understood, to the last infinitesimal particle. There is no laughter remaining, only explanations. A sterile and antiseptic world has no room for madmen. What a question and what a life. Without the wonder, is it very difficult to overcome despair? There is no Hope! The men learn, finally and when it is too late, what they lost and wish they had. We won the war and lost it. From this sorrow, a few good men emerge with illumination and enlightenment that there must be more. Thank God, the Unicorn will return. Joe de Beauchamp Seattle, Washington [log in to unmask] From cstu Wed Jun 14 14:09:54 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA43531; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 14:09:54 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 14:09:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: From Adora: Re: Ringworld Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 13:06:54 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Ringworld I like the _Ringworld_ suggestion, but Teela Brown isn't one of my favorite characters - rather stereotypical (in my humble opinion), and in need of updating. You're right about the special affect though - talk about a project!!! Adora [log in to unmask] From cstu Wed Jun 14 14:12:51 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA28405; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 14:12:51 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 14:12:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: From Adora: Re: Plot??? Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 13:04:00 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Plot??? Boris said: Anyway, I agree with one true postulate - there is only one plot in literature - Odyssey. ********* End Quote I'm confused. Do you mean the _Odyssey_ (read: ancient greek book) or 'odessey' (read: persons partaking of a journey)? This isn't a challange - just a question. Adora [log in to unmask] From cstu Wed Jun 14 14:17:23 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA46458; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 14:17:23 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 14:17:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: From Eric A. Johnson: RE: Libraries and SF Collections Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 15:30:18 -0400 (EDT) From: "Eric A. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: Libraries and SF Collections A while back a couple of you asked about how libraries organize SF. Well, the Library of Congress is not a good example because what SF we do acquire is either mixed in with the mainstream literature (this has its upside and its downside) or is put in a box and "added" to the special collections (where access is severely limited). Anyways, you might want to track down a copy of the following guide to the way things might be done: A guide to science fiction and fantasy in the Library of Congress classification scheme / Michael Burgess. 2nd ed., rev. San Bernadino, CA : Borgo Press, 1988. If you're looking to organize an SF collection, this might help. It lists both subject headings from the LCSH and classification numbers from the schedules. Of course it helps if your library is already LC-cataloging compatible ... Also, there was a nice review of SF reference books in the October 24, 1994 issue of AB BOOKMAN'S WEEKLEY by L.W. Currey (pp. 1648-1657) called "Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror Literature." This will point you to the essential books that should be in any SF reference collection and can be used for either evaluating your overall SF collection or determining what you should try to acquire (e.g., Michael Burgess' _Reference Guide to Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror ; Neil Barron's _Anatomy of Wonder_ [all editions] ; Neil Barron's _Fantasy Literature_ ; and so on). And I still owe various people a description of SF at LC ... *-------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Eric A. Johnson | *OPINIONS MINE* | | Senior Exchange Specialist (Baltics & CIS) | | | & Recommending Officer for Science Fiction | Voice: (202) 707-9498 | | Exchange & Gift Division (COLL/E&G/EES) | FAX: (202) 707-2086 | | Library of Congress, LM 632 | Email: [log in to unmask] | | Washington, DC 20540-4240 USA | | *-------------------------------------------------------------------------* "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Philip K. Dick, 1928-1982 From cstu Wed Jun 14 14:21:19 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA81841; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 14:21:19 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 14:21:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: From [log in to unmask]: The X-files Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 16:59:14 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: The X-files Who writes the screenplays and are there any actual scientific basis to them? From cstu Wed Jun 14 14:23:12 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA29004; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 14:23:12 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 14:23:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: From [log in to unmask]: Please advise Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 20:13:07 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Please advise. Is there such thing as "Secret Government Files", like the TV program, "The X-Files". And what about the so-called Sceret Files from the KGB that discuss UFO and alien encounters. Does any one have anything to comment about this or is this all Sci-Fi for the Tabloids. From cstu Wed Jun 14 16:43:53 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA34595; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 16:43:53 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 16:43:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: From Phil "BurnChrome" Rosen: Re: 1989 Hugo - I think Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 22:19:18 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: 1989 Hugo - I Think Fiona asked which novel won the 1989 Hugo Award. As the Hugos, unlike the Nebulas {or is it the other way around}, are awarded the year after the actual publication date of the honored work {or is it the other way around, oops, regular repeating time-slips highly unlikely}, I'd hazard to say it was Dan Simmons' _Hyperion_. Rather a harrowing tale of seven very different beings on a joint quest to find the missing parts of their respective lives. Set upon a world shrouded in ancient mysteries, the novel culminates in their confrontation with an animated cutlery shop known simply as the 'Shrike'. Oh by the way, Simmons wrote a sequal called _The Fall of Hyperion_ (I think). It didn't win any awards and I haven't gotten around to it yet. I hope I was able to get something right, or at least make someone LOL. -Phil "BurnChrome" Rosen From cstu Wed Jun 14 16:55:12 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA46891; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 16:55:12 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 16:55:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: From Richard Scott: Congo squared (fwd) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 21:39:33 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Congo squared (fwd) AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 00:44:49 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Congo squared Well, read this Thursday, saw the movie Sunday. Book was better, a good story. Movie was better than dorker reviewers who said it sucked. It was average to ok. They of course Hollywooded it up, making it schmaltzier with the voice for Amy being a cute little girl rather than her just doing hand signals, and adding the VR type bit in. Also Ross was not the amoral corporate scumbag she was in the book, but a smiley blonde type, and they threw in a throwaway pointless relationship element between her and the member of the first team that was last seen on camera. The famous Bruce Carpenter of Evil Dead fame :) They also threw in Tim Curry as a Romanian adventurer searching for the lost city of Zinj for some reason. Also, rather than a Ross-led expedition racing a rival company, it was just the one expedition and Ross horns in on Elliott's plane, rather tha duping him into bringing Amy on hers as in the novel. Joe Don "Edge of Darkness _Darius Jedburgh" Baker was the head of hte company Ross worked for, but he was after the diamonds directly, not as an agent for the other company competing with the Japanese. Company named changed from EFTS or whatever to TCS, too. Munro, the Great White Hunter metamorphosed into Winston T. Zedmore, which was quite amusing. Also in The Crow, I believe :) AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From cstu Wed Jun 14 16:59:07 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA07250; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 16:59:07 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 16:59:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: From Richard Scott: Re: Diamond Mask/fire away (fwd) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 21:39:57 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Diamond Mask/fire away (fwd) AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 00:14:20 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Diamond Mask/fire away Right, but Mark jumping off to another galaxy to increase its evolution towards unity and then an ethereal race (Lylmik) that were basically examples of mental Man were a bit of a dead giveaway, or gave me strong suspicions that hey, I bet Marc was involved in this... or, why would the Lylmik let immature humans in without a pro-human reason? i.e. Marc being part of the Lylmik... all this seemed to tie in well, and gave me about a 95% confidence interval, and then when you see the new books and Uncle Rogi, it is blatantly obvious then. But still fun. :-) AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From cstu Wed Jun 14 17:03:42 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA75602; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 17:03:42 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 17:03:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: From Joe de Beauchamp: Geston-a review Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 21:54:09 -0700 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Geston-a review Mirror in the Sky by Mark S. Geston A lump of coal is opaque, black, cold, and inert. Through the centuries, with heat, tension, and pressure; coal is transmuted into a diamond. This precious gem becomes a translucent beauty of illustrious value. The properties metamorphosed into the hardest substance, and an eternally lasting treasure. Dull coal ignites and burns out. A diamond crystal coruscates, animates light, and inspires exaltation forever. Through nearly twenties years, Geston has dealt with domestics, and the trials of being an attorney. Certainly, some stresses in life are warranted. This has sharpened his dimension of observation and his gift for writing. His latest novel, Mirror in the Sky, is his most magnificent jewel to date. It will have a profound and enormous change in the way you view life, and the way life will become. In this near distant future, an alien species arrives from a far constellation. They become our gods because of their advances in technology. Even in outward appearances, the gods have no physical imperfections. Their temperament strikes from their possessed mild compassion. When the gods descend to planet Earth, a painter by the name of Rane wishes to display the artwork of his culture. Rane, once and many decades ago, crafted a preponderance of a painting, which had deep insight for the gods. Rane's painting caused such a tumultuous affect, it lifted the spirits of the gods to travel to the stars. What did the gods see in the picture? The ultra-reality of terror cast a shadow over their future, and they knew their own demise. The gods felt the desire to search and face the threat. By venturing to new horizons, maybe, they could prolong their fate to come. The gods believed, in sharing their culture, that mankind would elucidate the destiny proscribed. They were surprised that the humans related with the painting. Riots broke out. Chaos and mob rule became prominent course of action. Most of the gods were revolted by the reactions of the Earthlings, and withdrew in a panic. How could the human race KNOW the depth of the picture? The portrayal was actuality and fact, to the gods and the few gifted mortals. Such painful realization forced them to depart with a few chosen Earthlings. When they left, the vacuum and void was filled with moral decay of our kindred race. Rane remained behind and became inspired by our tribal feuds. This disorder and pell mell confusion caused a FUSION of his artistic abilities. Divine power moved through his psyche. He rendered his last portrait. The forces provoked a quantum leap in his talents. A picture of mammoth consequences revealed the truthfulness to all peoples of all times. In a paragon utopian view, an ideal future rose as a phoenix from the ruinous ashes. Confidence was instilled in a new beginning. In the prevision of the painting, this god creates a wondrous image. Geston's book is a marvelous macrocosm of the cosmos, a object of beauty like a resplendent diamond. Joe de Beauchamp [log in to unmask] From cstu Wed Jun 14 17:27:15 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA06440; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 17:27:15 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 17:27:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: From Roberta Johnson: Re: SF in Cine -- A Nominee Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 10:54:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Robert Johnson <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: SF in Cine -- A Nominee On Sun, 11 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > And my choice for SF story I'd most like to see given cinematic NDT > {non-destructive treatment}: > > Larry Niven's "Ringworld" > Speaker-To-Animals -- Dolph Lungren. Mr. Won, Dolph in orange fur from head > to toe, what do you think? > > -Phil "BurnChrome" Rosen > I must confess, I think the only choice for Speaker is Michael Dorn--that voice, that physique... words fail me> From cstu Wed Jun 14 17:32:28 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA15908; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 17:32:28 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 17:32:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: From Roberta Johnson: Re: Odyssey as Ur-plot Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 11:16:47 -0500 (CDT) From: Robert Johnson <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Odyssey as Ur-plot > Anyway, I agree with one true postulate - > there is only one plot in literature - Odyssey. > > Regards, Boris > [log in to unmask] > Just to foment discussion, May I paraphrase Jill ker Conway in the introduction to Written by Herself: Autobiographies of American Women: The Oddyssey is the classic model for male autobiography, being a coming of age journey, a warrioir's tale, and a triumphant return home to a faithful woman. there is no similar archetype for women writing their own story-certainly no male Penelope at the spinnning wheel-so women have had to invent their biography as it actually happened to them. Critics and readers also have no subtext to fall back on when reading the work. So if we call The Odyssey (for discussion's sake) the seminal male plot, is there an equivalent female plot? And what is the feminine equivalent to seminal, anyway? Roberta Johnson (not Robert as my address insists) From cstu Wed Jun 14 17:37:02 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA15916; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 17:37:02 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 17:37:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: From Jim: A Mind is a Terrible Thing... Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 22:15:27 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: A Mind is a Terrible Thing... Okay, now that the quarter is over and I have some time away from school work (as if it really stopped me), I would like to make a few responses, queries, and postulations. I would have to agree with the agruments about trivilization of the SF genre coming from its popularization. Unfortunately, publishers are in their line of work to make money (how dare they!), hence what sees print equals what will sell, and what will sell is determined by what captures and keeps the audience's attention. Now, in an ideal world, the audience would be enraptured by all of the authors that grace this wonderful forum (some of which I have not read, I admit). However, the real world (or at least the one here in SoCal) seems to be populated by a society with less reading ability (California 4th graders scored 2nd worst in the nation on achievement tests), less disposable income (tragedy in and of itself that books have become a luxary, and television is a necessity), and less patience to read longer quality works (my mom the elementary school librarian could not keep The Hobbit/ LOTR/ Narnia/ Prydain series on the shelves a few years ago, and now she has to dust them). Hence, SF/fantasy is popular and more prevalent (not the word I really want), but its content grows increasingly mundane and simple. I offer onto the incinerator every single last book based upon a RPG (Role Playing Game) or toy, i.e. ALL of the DragonLance, Forgotten Realms, Shadowrun, Robotech claptrap. Shifting a little on my soap box, I would like to quote one of Alain Vaillancourt's latest postings: But seriously, though Bester could outwrite Heinlein and Asimov easily, and showed a great deal of imagination and breadth, he parsed it out here and there over stories and novels, without showing the capacity to bring a lot together in a great novel. THE DEMOLISHED MAN and THE STARS MY DESTINATION are true SF but they have just a wee bit too much "hip" slickness to them,as a necessary trait to make them appealing to people who do not read SF regularly. In other words, they are a bit lacking in wonder sometimes, as if Bester had been afraid to go full throttle as he must have been capable of. This is a truly age old problem related to the trivilization through popularization that I just mentioned. Literary giant, Herman Melville wanted to write great stories that explored the boundries of human experience, i.e. _Mardi and a Voyage Thither_, but all he could sell were the adventurous stories detailing his life in the navy, i.e. _Typee_, _Omoo_, and _Redburn_. His one attempt at combining both desires, _Moby Dick_, met with relatively little sucess in its time, but later grew to immense stature. What does all this mean for SF writers of today? Maybe in 40 years Gibson will be gazed upon as a man writing before his time and, therein, catalyzing a revolution. Or perhaps, he will be remembered with the same quirky respect as all those "sceintists" who postulated that the Sun revolves around the Earth (everyone knows it revolves around me!). Okay, and now onto something completely different, before the imminently wonderful, highly intelligent, always wise Moderator/Gods (nestled away in the brain-numbed half light of the windowless LOC, Monroe building) cut me off. My entry for SF's founding fathers/ mothers/ its: Cyrano de Bergerac, Savinien (1619-1655) French author and playright. In his fantasies _Historie comique des e'tats et empires de la lune (Comical History of the States and Empires of the Moon, 1656)_ and _Histoire comique des e'tats et empires du soleil (Comical History of the States and Empires of the Sun, 1661)_, Cyrano recounts his imaginary visits to the moon and the sun; his descriptions of their people and institutions are broadly stairical of the society and politics of his own day...A free thinker and a soldier, famed for his skill in duels as well as for his inordinately long nose, Cyrano served as inspiration for the central character in Edmond Rostand's play _Cyrano de Bergerac_. Benet's Readers Encyclopedia, pg. 231. I'm not saying these are better than _Frankenstein_, but they are about 160 years older. Oh, and one last thing before I go. Mention has been made for short stories, novels, and epic poetry. Are we also considering graphic novels and otherwise illustrated stories? One posting mentioned Alan Moore's _The Watchmen_, and I would have to agree that it was pretty good. However, before I throw the weight of my opinion behind a particular work I'll have to dig through my rarther large collection of Epic Illustrated, Heavy Metal, and other various collections. And since I'm out here in left field already, I might as well say that a nod should be given to Galileo, Nostradamus, and all other ancient thinkers who may not have been correct all the time, but they had the chutzpah to dream. Jim [log in to unmask] From cstu Wed Jun 14 17:40:06 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA75554; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 17:40:06 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 17:40:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: From Sandra Kisner: Aliens and Linguists Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 08:43:53 -0400 (EDT) From: "Sandra Kisner" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Aliens and Linguists > I second (or is it third?) LeGuin & Phil Rosen's praise of "Darmok" > (ST:TNG). Add me to the list of people who enjoyed this episode. > Of course, I'd be more than pleased to have my ignorance of other writers' > attention to this issue remedied by suggestions from other sf-lit > members... Several years ago I did some reading on how language is handled in science fiction. I copied an article from _Science Fiction Studies, Series II_ (ed. RD Mullen and Darko Savin, 1977) by Walter E. Meyers, "The Future History and Development of the English Language." He has also written a book, _Aliens and Linguists_ (U. Georgia Press, 1980) that is quite interesting, and should point readers to older books and stories that deal with communicating with aliens. Sandra Kisner [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 14 13:29:55 1995 Received: from palantiri.spb.su by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA63270; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 13:29:55 -0400 Received: from palnet.UUCP (uuiri@localhost) by bar.palantiri.spb.su (8.6.8/8.6.12) with UUCP id VAA17093 for [log in to unmask]; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 21:30:04 +0400 Received: from palantiri.spb.su by palantiri.spb.su (UUPC/extended 1.12b) with UUCP; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 21:28:48 EDT Received: by palantiri.spb.su (FIDO2UU 1.92b [OS2]); Wed, 14 Jun 1995 21:28:47 +0400 To: [log in to unmask] From: Serge Berezhnoy <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Apocalyptic fiction Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 21:28:47 +0400 David Hipple <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > That's a point - isn't there, somewhere, a categorisation of > "apocalyptic" fiction? I'm really struggling here and the memory > is very tenuous indeed, but I think that this term has been used > to descibe non-realistic fiction generally (not just > end-of-the-world stuff!). Maybe it's French - apocalyptique? > Mean anything to anyone? Means precious little to me.... Not that my response will be on the point compleatly... No, in Russian sf field we have not a special categorisation for apocalyptic fiction. And we here don't use term "apocalyptic" to describe non-realistic fiction generally. But we have a relatively new group of speculative fiction writers call themselves "turborealists" -- and one of the points of their writings is not so usual idea that the life itself -- life of the human being, human society, Universe -- is a permanent Apocalypse. And almost all turborealism fiction use apocalyptic motives... I want to make accent that turborealism can not be described as "apocalyptic fiction" only. It is a reach creative idea deals with a sociology, philosophy, psychology and a hell of other themes. In the estetic it may remind cyberpunk sometimes... Serge Berezhnoy St.Petersburg, Russia [log in to unmask] * Origin: TERRA FANTASTICA, St.Petersburg, (812)-310-6007 (2:5030/207.2) From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 14 14:53:45 1995 Received: from Kitten.mcs.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA29153; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 14:53:45 -0400 Received: from nsls1.nslsilus.org (nsls1.nslsilus.org [192.160.127.70]) by kitten.mcs.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA22751 for <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 13:53:45 -0500 Received: by nsls1.nslsilus.org (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.5) id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 14 Jun 95 13:53 CDT Sender: [log in to unmask] (Roberta Johnson) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 13:53:44 -0500 (CDT) From: Robert Johnson <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Robert Johnson <[log in to unmask]> Reply-To: Robert Johnson <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Films To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Thu, 8 Jun 1995, Boris Sidyuk wrote: > I suppose that if somebody like Spielberg will someday make a movie > based on Le Guin's LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS, such a movie will earn > all Oscars (or half :)). > > Regards, Boris > [log in to unmask] > Just a note...Here in Chicago a local theatre company produced a stage version of Left Hand, which sent many patrons to our library to read the original. Unfortunately, I have no feedback indicating their response to the novel. I didn't see the play myself (being dubious) but the reviews were excellent. Lawrence Bonner in the Chicago Tribune (Feb. 7 Sec.1 Pg. 16) said, "Lifeline Theatre's premiere, meticulously adapted by director meryl Friedman, takes us on an absorbing 180 minute journey through this complex and corrective society...the intensity often works, as in karen Tarjan's wise and charismatic seer Faxe." The review praises David Coronado as Genly Ai, but surprisingly doesn't mention Estraven, or even whether Estraven was played by a man or a woman. From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 14 15:06:15 1995 Received: from aec1.apgea.army.mil by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA73858; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 15:06:15 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Date: 14 Jun 95 15:01 EST Subject: Re: From [log in to unmask]: The X-files To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> On June 14, [log in to unmask] asked: >Who writes the screenplays and are there any actual scientific basis to them? Series Creator Cris Carter writes most of the stories . Michael Moncey "History has the relation to truth that theology has to religion- i.e., none to speak of" - Lazarus Long From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 14 15:39:57 1995 Received: from cobra.uni.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA38991; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 15:39:57 -0400 Received: from uni.edu by uni.edu (PMDF V4.3-7 #4975) id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 14:39:21 CDT Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 14:39:21 -0500 (CDT) From: "Tom Remington [UNI ENGLISH DEPT.]" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: From Andy Sawyer: A Heinlein speech To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Envelope-To: [log in to unmask] X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" X-Vms-Cc: REMINGTONT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Does anyone know details of a speech Robert A Heinlein gave to the > Naval Academy in the 1970s? Is it in print anywhere? "The Forrestal Lecture" (1973) was printed in *Analog* (January, 1974), and reprinted in *Expanded Universe* (Ace, 1980). Cheers, Tom Remington ([log in to unmask]) From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 14 15:44:26 1995 Received: from ms.jcps.k12.mo.us by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA51661; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 15:44:26 -0400 Received: from @ms.jcps.k12.mo.us (198.209.133.115) by ms.jcps.k12.mo.us with SMTP (MailShare 1.0b8); Wed, 14 Jun 1995 14:47:40 +0000 X-Sender: [log in to unmask] X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: [log in to unmask] From: [log in to unmask] (John Lowrance) Subject: Heinlein query Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 14:47:40 +0000 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mr. Sawyer: The Heinlein speech in question was available on audio-cassette a few years ago from the American Audio Prose Library, P.O. Box 842, Columbia, Missouri 65205. As I recall, excerpts from it were published in Analog around 1971, but I am not aware of any other printed versions. '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' John Lowrance - Head Librarian - Jefferson City High School Phone 314-659-3084 Fax 314-659-3246 Internet e-mail address - [log in to unmask] US Mail - 609 Union, Jefferson City, MO 65101 "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." - John Lennon '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 14 15:57:19 1995 Received: from yvax2.byu.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA37311; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 15:57:19 -0400 Received: from [128.187.35.50] ("port 47777"@128.187.35.50) by yvax.byu.edu (PMDF V5.0-3 #7277) id <[log in to unmask]> for [log in to unmask]; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 13:56:27 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 13:56:27 -0600 (MDT) Date-Warning: Date header was inserted by yvax.byu.edu From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: From Andy Sawyer: A Heinlein speech To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> >Subject: A Heinlein speech >Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 17:25:34 +0100 (BST) > >Does anyone know details of a speech Robert A Heinlein gave to the >Naval Academy in the 1970s? Is it in print anywhere? >-- >Andy Sawyer, >Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection >Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool >PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK >0151-794-2733/2696 >[log in to unmask] >http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html > >"Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) Heinlein's speech to the Naval Academy was published in the January 1974 issue of _Analog_. The heart of it was his five rules for getting published, but he followed with a strong plug for patriotism and moral responsibility. [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 14 16:05:25 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA72628; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 16:05:25 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA16282; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 15:04:59 -0500 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 15:05:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: From [log in to unmask]: The X-files In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950614150504.11620E-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Yes, there is some basis for some of them. AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place On Wed, 14 Jun 1995, Colleen Stumbaugh wrote: > Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 16:59:14 -0400 > From: [log in to unmask] > Subject: The X-files > > Who writes the screenplays and are there any actual scientific basis to them? > > From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 14 16:06:14 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA73478; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 16:06:14 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA16311; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 15:05:49 -0500 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 15:06:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: From [log in to unmask]: Please advise In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950614150542.11620F-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII There are *lots* of secret government files. And no, they aren't going to tell you :0) AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 14 16:06:27 1995 Received: from ns.byu.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA72988; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 16:06:27 -0400 Received: from [128.187.35.50] ("port 57873"@128.187.35.50) by yvax.byu.edu (PMDF V5.0-3 #7277) id <[log in to unmask]> for [log in to unmask]; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 14:05:44 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 14:05:44 -0600 (MDT) Date-Warning: Date header was inserted by yvax.byu.edu From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: From Eric A. Johnson: RE: Libraries and SF Collections To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 15:30:18 -0400 (EDT) >From: "Eric A. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]> >Subject: RE: Libraries and SF Collections > > >A while back a couple of you asked about how libraries organize SF. >Well, the Library of Congress is not a good example because what SF we do >acquire is either mixed in with the mainstream literature (this has its >upside and its downside) or is put in a box and "added" to the special >collections (where access is severely limited). Anyways, you might want to >track down a copy of the following guide to the way things might be done: > >A guide to science fiction and fantasy in the Library of Congress >classification scheme / Michael Burgess. 2nd ed., rev. San Bernadino, >CA : Borgo Press, 1988. > >If you're looking to organize an SF collection, this might help. It >lists both subject headings from the LCSH and classification numbers from >the schedules. Of course it helps if your library is already >LC-cataloging compatible ... > >Also, there was a nice review of SF reference books in the October 24, 1994 >issue of AB BOOKMAN'S WEEKLEY by L.W. Currey (pp. 1648-1657) called >"Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror Literature." This will point you >to the essential books that should be in any SF reference collection and >can be used for either evaluating your overall SF collection or determining >what you should try to acquire (e.g., Michael Burgess' _Reference Guide to >Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror ; Neil Barron's _Anatomy of Wonder_ >[all editions] ; Neil Barron's _Fantasy Literature_ ; and so on). > >And I still owe various people a description of SF at LC ... > > > >*-------------------------------------------------------------------------* >| Eric A. Johnson | *OPINIONS MINE* | >| Senior Exchange Specialist (Baltics & CIS) | | >| & Recommending Officer for Science Fiction | Voice: (202) 707-9498 | >| Exchange & Gift Division (COLL/E&G/EES) | FAX: (202) 707-2086 | >| Library of Congress, LM 632 | Email: [log in to unmask] | >| Washington, DC 20540-4240 USA | | >*-------------------------------------------------------------------------* > > "Reality is that which, when you stop > believing in it, doesn't go away." > > Philip K. Dick, 1928-1982 When Brigham Young University (Provo, Utah) elected to switch from Dewey to LC in the late 70's, we found the PZ-4 designation open and immediately seized on it as a means of keeping our SF together. All our old holdings remain in one place under the Dewey classification. New acquistions (since 1978) and reference works appear under the PZ-4 designation. That keeps our extensive holdings reasonably intact even though separated into two basic groups on the same floor. Other librarians might want to try the same approach. [log in to unmask] (801) 378-2456 From eaj Wed Jun 14 17:00:15 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA76418; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 17:00:15 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 17:00:15 -0400 (EDT) From: "Eric A. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: From Phil "BurnChrome" Rosen: Re: 1989 Hugo - I think In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I have a list of award winners that says Dan Simmons HYPERION won the 1990 Hugo for best novel. The 1989 was won by C.J. Cherryh's CYTEEN. Anyways ... EAJ *-------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Eric A. Johnson | *OPINIONS MINE* | | Senior Exchange Specialist (Baltics & CIS) | | | & Recommending Officer for Science Fiction | Voice: (202) 707-9498 | | Exchange & Gift Division (COLL/E&G/EES) | FAX: (202) 707-2086 | | Library of Congress, LM 632 | Email: [log in to unmask] | | Washington, DC 20540-4240 USA | | *-------------------------------------------------------------------------* "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Philip K. Dick, 1928-1982 From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 14 17:12:21 1995 Received: from ren.ir.miami.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA64239; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 17:12:21 -0400 Received: from umiami.ir.miami.edu by umiami.ir.miami.edu (PMDF V4.3-13 #7207) id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 17:12:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 17:12:15 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: From Phil "BurnChrome" Rosen: Re: 1989 Hugo - I think In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Envelope-To: [log in to unmask] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT [log in to unmask] wrote: > Subject: Re: 1989 Hugo - I Think > > Fiona asked which novel won the 1989 Hugo Award. As the Hugos, unlike the > Nebulas {or is it the other way around}, are awarded the year after the > actual publication date of the honored work {or is it the other way around, > oops, regular repeating time-slips highly unlikely}, I'd hazard to say it was > Dan Simmons' _Hyperion_. That was exactly it. Thanks very much. Fiona From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 14 18:02:12 1995 Received: from bos1g.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA09313; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 18:02:12 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 18:02:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 18:02:08 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: From Ed McKnight: Re: Arena (fwd) To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Ed McKnight: I think you'll find that Brown's story was the acknowledged source, but that he himself was -not- the "acknowledged screenwriter". -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 14 18:03:19 1995 Received: from condor.CC.UMontreal.CA by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA48084; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 18:03:19 -0400 Received: from eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA (eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA [132.204.10.20]) by condor.CC.UMontreal.CA with ESMTP id SAA08811 (8.6.11/IDA-1.6 for <[log in to unmask]>); Wed, 14 Jun 1995 18:02:36 -0400 Received: by eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA (950221.405.SGI.8.6.10/5.17) id SAA03072; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 18:02:35 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 18:02:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: From [log in to unmask]: The X-files To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 14 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > > On June 14, [log in to unmask] asked: > >Who writes the screenplays and are there any actual scientific basis to them? > > Series Creator Cris Carter writes most of the stories . > Yes, and he has said that he saw it more as a series following the black side of "Twilight Zone" and "Outer Limits" than as a science fiction series. Something closer to "Night Gallery" or to some of the early works of Richard Matheson. The TV equivalent of singing the blues. Or what french film critics call the "film noir". Au revoir! DE: Alain Vaillancourt [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 14 18:08:11 1995 Received: from bos1g.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA46066; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 18:08:11 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 18:08:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 18:08:09 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: From Jim: A Mind is a Terrible Thing... To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT There's as much -- probably more -- good, mature science fiction as there ever was. Problem is, when I broke into the field back in the 1960s, I think we were publishing maybe 50 books a year. Today we're publishing over 1300. That's a lot of crap to wade through to -find- the good stuff. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 14 18:08:24 1995 Received: from gilbert.ucc.hull.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA59653; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 18:08:24 -0400 Received: from humus.ucc.hull.ac.uk (actually host adelphi-le0.ucc.hull.ac.uk) by gilbert.ucc.hull.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 14 Jun 1995 23:08:02 +0100 Received: from humus.hull.ac.uk (actually host humus-le0.ucc.hull.ac.uk) by adelphi.ucc.hull.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 14 Jun 1995 23:07:54 +0100 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Heinlein's speeches To: [log in to unmask] Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 23:07:52 +0100 (BST) From: Andy Butler <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Tom Remington [UNI ENGLISH DEPT.]" at Jun 14, 95 05:59:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 650 > > "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > Does anyone know details of a speech Robert A Heinlein gave to the > > Naval Academy in the 1970s? Is it in print anywhere? Whilst we're talking Heinlein, can any give a reference, or cite the passage where Heinlein talked about Speculative Fiction? I believe it was in 1941. (There's a thesis on Heinlein here at Hull, but mostly on the late novels. Maybe I should check through this) Cheers Andy Butler English Department University of Hull Hull UK [log in to unmask] "We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?" From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 14 18:12:10 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA54253; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 18:12:10 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA009907752; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 18:09:12 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 18:09:12 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: From [log in to unmask]: The X-files Does any one know, if he is on-line with us? From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 14 18:39:16 1995 Received: from bos1h.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA18109; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 18:39:16 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 17:57:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 17:57:08 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: From Phil "BurnChrome" Rosen: Re: 1989 Hugo - I think To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I just checked; as I said, the 1989 Hugo went to C. J. Cherryh's CYTEEN. The Hugos work on the calender year. The dates of eligibility go from January 1 through December 31. The Nebulas work on a fiscal year beginning with the date of publication. Hence, a story that comes out on March 23 of 1995 will be eligible through March 22 of 1996, and if it makes the ballot of 1996 stories, it will not be voted on until 1997. The Nebulas used to run on the same calender as the Hugos, but a lot of people with stories that came out in October, November and December felt they were being treated unfairly. (This does not apply to the Hugos, where nominations close in April, so everyone has time to read everything; the Nebulas usually close around January 4.) So we changed the rules...but now I think it's a little unfair to the very oldest stories: who can remember a 4,000-worder they read in a magazine more than 2 years ago? -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 14 18:51:34 1995 Received: from bos1h.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA67887; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 18:51:34 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 18:05:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 18:05:58 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: From Andy Sawyer: A Heinlein speech To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The speech was titled "The Pragmatics of Patriotism", and appeared originally in Dick Geis' Hugo-winning fanzine, SCIENCE FICTION REVIEW, and is available in book form in Heinlein's EXPANDED UNIVERSE. -- Mike Resnick From cstu Thu Jun 15 06:37:55 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA22913; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 06:37:55 -0400 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 06:37:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: From Martin Won :RE: SF in Cine -- A Nominee (Ringworld) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It seems besides not letting me approve any messages, a few messages fell through the system cracks this week. My apologies to Martin and anyone else who had this happen. Please feel free to send the message to me or again to the list. Colleen Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT [log in to unmask] ----------------------- From: martinw@rodan Date: 12 Jun 95 Subject: RE: SF in Cine -- A Nominee (Ringworld) Phil "BurnChrome" Rosen wrote: |And my choice for SF story I'd most like to see given cinematic NDT |{non-destructive treatment}: | |Larry Niven's "Ringworld" . . . |Speaker-To-Animals -- Dolph Lungren. Mr. Won, Dolph in orange fur from head |to toe, what do you think? I think I'd rather see him in tar and feathers. If he could deliver in this role, he'd be following in the footsteps of other illustrious players whose best parts have been non-human (i.e. Arnie Schwarzeneggar and Daryl Hannah). My recollection, however, is that Speaker-to-Animals has speaking parts. In my mind, that fact renders Dolph incapable of providing any sort of satisfactory performance in this role. However, I'm a believer in never shooting down a solution unless I have an alternative. Hmmm, must be arrogant, prideful, able to bellow and project strong sense of loyalty to warrior society--what's Michael Dorn up to these days...? -Martin S. Won [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 14 19:05:14 1995 Received: from [204.182.15.10] by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA81273; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 19:05:14 -0400 Received: from B17.Catch22.COM (espana@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by B17.Catch22.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA00429 for <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 16:09:52 -0700 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Url: http://www.Catch22.COM/ X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6 4/21/95 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: From Ed McKnight: Re: Arena (fwd) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 14 Jun 1995 18:38:55 EDT." <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 16:09:52 -0700 From: Espana Nunez <[log in to unmask]> > Ed McKnight: I think you'll find that Brown's story was the acknowledged > source, but that he himself was -not- the "acknowledged screenwriter". > > -- Mike Resnick Well, I know it's not much of a reference source, but I have some of the old ST trading cards lying around and "TV Credit Card #2" has the following credits: Writers: Gene L. Coon, Frederic L. brown Director: Marc Daniels Producer: Gene Roddenberry First Aired: 1/1967 Was he maybe not credited when the episode first appeared and then this was fixed later? Espana (who cant believe she just quoted a trading card) -- Espana N. Sheriff "Hip-Hop Bishop of Beat! The Cool, [log in to unmask] Gone Daddio of the Deva Dimensions!" http://www.Catch22.COM/~espana -Doom Patrol From cstu Thu Jun 15 06:46:28 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA57379; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 06:46:28 -0400 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 06:46:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: From Espana Nunez: Re: From Ed McKnight: Re: Arena (fwd) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: From Ed McKnight: Re: Arena (fwd) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 16:09:52 -0700 From: Espana Nunez <[log in to unmask]> > Ed McKnight: I think you'll find that Brown's story was the acknowledged > source, but that he himself was -not- the "acknowledged screenwriter". > > -- Mike Resnick Well, I know it's not much of a reference source, but I have some of the old ST trading cards lying around and "TV Credit Card #2" has the following credits: Writers: Gene L. Coon, Frederic L. brown Director: Marc Daniels Producer: Gene Roddenberry First Aired: 1/1967 Was he maybe not credited when the episode first appeared and then this was fixed later? Espana (who cant believe she just quoted a trading card) -- Espana N. Sheriff "Hip-Hop Bishop of Beat! The Cool, [log in to unmask] Gone Daddio of the Deva Dimensions!" http://www.Catch22.COM/~espana -Doom Patrol From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 14 20:06:48 1995 Received: from umailsrv1.umd.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA77531; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 20:06:48 -0400 Received: by umailsrv1.UMD.EDU (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA04319; Wed, 14 Jun 95 20:06:47 -0400 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 95 20:06 EDT From: [log in to unmask] (cb52) Subject: Re: Re: From Andy Sawyer: A Heinlein speech To: [log in to unmask] In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> >The speech was titled "The Pragmatics of Patriotism", and appeared >originally in Dick Geis' Hugo-winning fanzine, SCIENCE FICTION REVIEW, >and is available in book form in Heinlein's EXPANDED UNIVERSE. > >-- Mike Resnick > As is the article about speculative fiction that Andy Sawyer inquired about (at least I'm pretty sure it is). A good bit of Heinlein's short non-fiction appears in EXPANDED UNIVERSE. C. Douglas Baker E-mail: [log in to unmask] [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 14 22:10:21 1995 Received: from panix.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA29678; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 22:10:21 -0400 Received: (from hlavaty@localhost) by panix.com (8.6.12/8.6.12+PanixU1.1) id WAA02884; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 22:10:18 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 22:10:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Arthur Hlavaty <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: From Eric A. Johnson: RE: Libraries and SF Collections In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII When I was in library school, I was most interested to learn that neither Dewey decimal nor Library of Congress distinguishes between "mainstream" and "category" fiction. Could there be a lesson in that? Arthur D. Hlavaty [log in to unmask] Church of the SuperGenius In Wile E. We Trust From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 14 22:15:18 1995 Received: from panix.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA81263; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 22:15:18 -0400 Received: (from hlavaty@localhost) by panix.com (8.6.12/8.6.12+PanixU1.1) id WAA03900; Wed, 14 Jun 1995 22:15:16 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 22:15:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Arthur Hlavaty <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: From Andy Sawyer: A Heinlein speech In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 14 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > > Heinlein's speech to the Naval Academy was published in the January > 1974 issue of _Analog_. The heart of it was his five rules for getting > published, but he followed with a strong plug for patriotism and moral > responsibility. > . . . and getting killed trying to save strangers. Arthur D. Hlavaty [log in to unmask] Church of the SuperGenius In Wile E. We Trust From cstu Thu Jun 15 07:16:45 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA46562; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 07:16:45 -0400 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 07:16:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: From Arthur Hlavaty: Re: From Andy Sawyer: A Heinlein speech Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 22:15:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Arthur Hlavaty <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: From Andy Sawyer: A Heinlein speech On Wed, 14 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > > Heinlein's speech to the Naval Academy was published in the January > 1974 issue of _Analog_. The heart of it was his five rules for getting > published, but he followed with a strong plug for patriotism and moral > responsibility. > . . . and getting killed trying to save strangers. Arthur D. Hlavaty [log in to unmask] Church of the SuperGenius In Wile E. We Trust From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 03:33:35 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA12547; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 03:33:35 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA23383; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 02:32:35 -0500 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 02:32:50 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: From Phil "BurnChrome" Rosen: Re: 1989 Hugo - I think In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950615023221.2504E-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, if you have read Hyperion, the Fall of Hyperion is a must. :-) Just as good. I got both in a SFBC edition, pretty cool stuff. AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 03:38:22 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA15973; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 03:38:22 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA23466; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 02:37:21 -0500 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 02:37:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: From Roberta Johnson: Re: Odyssey as Ur-plot In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950615023659.2504F-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Feminine of seminal is ovulal? Anyway, good question, but why can't it be the same? AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 03:42:49 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA38840; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 03:42:49 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA23507; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 02:41:48 -0500 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 02:42:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: From Jim: A Mind is a Terrible Thing... In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950615023937.2504G-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Jim, calling anything written about RPGs as rubbish is stupid. It is simply not true. Yes, there is a lot of crap. However, there is a lot of crap in *all* books, so why point that out? Look at all the pretty average ad-infinitum series not based on anything and having no reason to be a series... I can point out lots of others, too :-) What is wrong with slickness, btw? Look what Julian May has to say about writing, yes, she writes to sell. Not a lot wrong with that, and she is extremely good. AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 03:45:18 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA73699; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 03:45:18 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA23639; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 02:44:18 -0500 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 02:44:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: From Jim: A Mind is a Terrible Thing... In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950615024339.2504H-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ok, Jim, for perhaps even more 'seminal' graphic novels :- The Dark Knight Returns, by Frank Miller. Definitely as good as The Watchmen. AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 03:49:49 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA35872; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 03:49:49 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA23690; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 02:48:49 -0500 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 02:49:04 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: From [log in to unmask]: The X-files In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950615024832.2504I-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I believe not, unless he is lurking. People do keep tabs on the X-Files newsgroup for him, I think. AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place On Wed, 14 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > Does any one know, if he is on-line with us? > From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 05:19:53 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA52073; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 05:19:53 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 10:19:34 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 15 Jun 95 10:19:30 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: X-Files - real things? Response. Date: Thu, 15 Jun 95 10:06:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 36 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 >Is there such thing as "Secret Government Files", like the TV program, "The >X-Files". I think it's assumed that governments do not, as a rule, feel bound to tell us everything. This is why they're interested, and why we are hesitant, about things like the Official Secrets Act and the Clipper Chip. Naturally this puts everything that they DO tell us in some degree of doubt. Some people take this further than others. The real question, though, seems to be not whether secret files exist but what might be in them. This is a bit of a problem, since "they" (the Bavarian Illuminati, no doubt) have decided not to tell us.... >And what about the so-called Sceret Files from the KGB that discuss >UFO and alien encounters. Excellent candidates. Who knows? >Does any one have anything to comment about this or is this all Sci-Fi for >the Tabloids. There's probably something of a difference between stories about a cover-up of the discovery of alien corpses and stories of B29s and London double-decker buses on the moon. The difference probably is that, while both are swamp gas, the former relates to SOME form of official activity that has been cheerfully misinterpreted. (Stories about bombers on the moon, I am convinced, are published by people who take a delight in the fact there are people out there willing to pay for this nonsense.) Makes for a damn good TV series, though. Pretty unsatisfactory comment, I'm afraid, but it sums up my own attitude to the whole thing for whatever that's worth. Dave From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 05:27:21 1995 Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA36818; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 05:27:21 -0400 Received: from uxa.liv.ac.uk by mail.liv.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 15 Jun 1995 10:26:45 +0100 From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Secret Government files To: [log in to unmask] Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 10:26:42 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Colleen Stumbaugh" at Jun 14, 95 02:26:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 976 In the last mail Colleen Stumbaugh said: > > Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 20:13:07 -0400 > From: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Please advise. > > Is there such thing as "Secret Government Files", like the TV program, "The > X-Files". > > And what about the so-called Sceret Files from the KGB that discuss > UFO and alien encounters. The KGB, like the CIA, have their own share of hoaxes, conspiracy theorists, secret military projects that no-one is supposed to know about, disinformation, cover-ups, cock-ups, and general nutters. No real need to import UFOs into the matter. > . . . is this all Sci-Fi for > the Tabloids. Yes. May it stay there. > > -- Andy Sawyer, Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK 0151-794-2733/2696 [log in to unmask] http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html "Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 05:33:30 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA79896; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 05:33:30 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 10:33:00 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 15 Jun 95 10:32:56 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: From [log in to unmask]: The X-files Date: Thu, 15 Jun 95 10:20:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 28 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 >Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 16:59:14 -0400 >From: [log in to unmask] >Subject: The X-files > >Who writes the screenplays and are there any actual scientific basis to them? I think that Chris Carter (creator and producer) contributes a good few, but I may be confusing that with the Joe Straczynski/Babylon 5 situation (JMS writes about two-thirds of B5). Seems to me that the pseudo-science tends to stand up pretty well with the exception of a few clunkers. People were widely unconvinced about the malign computer that can switch on and access others' PCs remotely, for instance. Then again even this was done for dramatic purpose and did its job OK. In a way it's a good example to support the idea that this is a TV drama series about people and that it happens to set itself in a context of weird stuff. It's said that the weird bits in most of the episodes (not, I think, that computer...) are based to some extent on reported events. That doesn't mean that anything in them is true; just that people HAVE reported alien corpses at Roswell, UFOs at Nellis, mystical healing and trolls in the woods. No-one I know is tempted to regard The X-Files as a source of information - though it's fun to spot the references if you can - just an uncommonly nicely crafted TV SF drama series. Dave From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 05:43:57 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA62880; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 05:43:57 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 10:42:07 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 15 Jun 95 10:42:04 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: From [log in to unmask]: The X-files Date: Thu, 15 Jun 95 10:30:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 14 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 >Does any one know, if he is on-line with us? > If you mean Chris Carter (the man from The X-Files), then I believe the answer is yes. Having said that, I'm not sure where. (Helpful, huh?) I've heard it said that there's an X-Files newsgroup that includes a prolific but different Chris Carter, by the way. Somewhere I think I've got one or more lists of SF lists. I'll see if I can find it/them and mail you direct. Dave From cstu Thu Jun 15 08:09:26 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA40324; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 08:09:26 -0400 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 08:09:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: X-files and government conspiracies Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This is a somewhat tongue-in-cheek view, but as a Federal Employee, I am not sure that the government could keep a secret that well. Look at what reporters have uncovered as real coverups (drug testing on soldiers, and in the our subway systems), so I am not sure that some harder evidence would not have gotten out. Besides, no one here can keep a secret. Okay, okay, we are a library and more inclined to give out info than hide it. :-) Colleen _________________________________________________________________________ Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian [log in to unmask] Library of Congress (202) 707-4132 Washington, DC 20540-4861 FAX: (202) 707-4142 These opinions are mine, Mine MINE! __________________________________________________________________________ From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 08:10:08 1995 Received: from gusun.acc.georgetown.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA41666; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 08:10:08 -0400 Received: by gusun.acc.georgetown.edu; (5.0/1.1.8.2/6Jan9518:19pm) id AA23486; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 08:09:07 +0500 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 08:09:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Jimmy <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: From Jim: A Mind is a Terrible Thing... In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950615024339.2504H-100000@bigcat> Message-Id: <Pine.SOL.3.91.950615080612.23387B-100000@gusun> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Length: 1176 On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Richard Scott wrote: > Ok, Jim, for perhaps even more 'seminal' graphic novels :- > > The Dark Knight Returns, by Frank Miller. > > Definitely as good as The Watchmen. > > AussieVamp > Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) > Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. > --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place I feel that Frank Miller is the _best_ man working in comics today. Dark Knight is tremendous, as is his Sin City work and Give Me Liberty and Martha Washington Goes To War. _____________________________________________________________________________ _________ / | \ | | | Jimmy Coraci | ___ | ___ | [log in to unmask] | / \ / \ | / \____v____/ \ The circle is now complete. / | /V\ | \ When I left you I was but a learner... / \ /|||\ / \ NOW I AM THE MASTER \______\*-----*/______/ \_______/ _____________________________________________________________________________ http://www.georgetown.edu:80/organizations/webclub/pages/coracij/coracij.html From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 08:58:38 1995 Received: from plym.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA76491; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 08:58:38 -0400 Received: from cs_fs23.csd.plym.ac.uk (actually cs_fs23.cs.plymouth.ac.uk) by plymouth.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 15 Jun 1995 13:52:07 +0100 Received: from CS_FS23/SMTP_MAIL by cs_fs23.csd.plym.ac.uk (Mercury 1.20); 15 Jun 95 13:55:11 GMT+1 Received: from SMTP_MAIL by CS_FS23 (Mercury 1.20); 15 Jun 95 13:55:00 GMT+1 From: Ruth Ballam <[log in to unmask]> Organization: University of Plymouth To: [log in to unmask] Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 14:05:05 GMT Subject: Re: From Jim: A Mind is a Terrible Thing... Reply-To: [log in to unmask] Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Mac (v2.1.2) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> >> Ok, Jim, for perhaps even more 'seminal' graphic novels :- The Dark Knight Returns, by Frank Miller. >> I'd add the Sandman books Ruth Ballam, Computing Service, University of Plymouth ------------------------------------------------------- ^ ^ * * "Waking up and getting up has never been easy" x Elastica ------------------------------------------------------- From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 08:59:05 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA20700; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 08:59:05 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 13:43:58 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 15 Jun 95 13:43:56 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: From Jim: A Mind is a Terrible Thing... Date: Thu, 15 Jun 95 13:42:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 46 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Richard Scott: >Jim, calling anything written about RPGs as rubbish is stupid. It is >simply not true. As a general objection to a generalisation I'd go along with this on grounds of fairness, although personally I don't recall anything that would support the related idea that any of it can actually be good. I would guess that games such as Cthulhu or Ars Magica might stimulate some original, thoughtful stuff (particularly considering that that's pretty much the point of the latter), but I've yet to see any. There was a Paranoia novel (well, at least one) that was well spoken-of - but then, it would be... Personally I would go for a less strong version of the original complaint! Everything that's horrible and RPG-related that I've actually seen seems to have arisen from the darker corners of pap, thud and blunder D&D and its ilk. Rumour (very occasionally) has it that one or two of the Dragonlance books have been written reasonably well, but the cloned ones that I've seen don't support that. Bimbos of the Death Sun was more generous towards RPGs than it was towards SF fans (it was an apologia for RPGs, in comparison!), but that's a different thing anyway. I gather that Costikyan's Another Day, Another Dungeon has a lot to be said for it, but then again that's satirising the whole thing. And then there are innumerable novels that give a strong sense of being no more than slightly tarted-up reports on rather shallow RPG scenarios that might have been fun to participate in but which don't really have much meat on them in this form (and I maintain that the later bits even of Mordant's Need still read like this to me!). I suppose the BIG counter-example is Chaosium's slew of Glorantha-related stuff, but even that may not be a good example in the sense that a lot of Chaosium's output for some years was geared to exploring the history and society of this world from various directions - some of them literary, some of them involving game-based means of access to it, and all of them (at least, all that I've seen) stressing quality as a precursor to any opportunity for RPG participation. I suppose I just mean that the literature was in a way a part of the RPG from the outset and might be difficult to separate out as being "based on it". (This approach seems to have died down a bit recently, as well, but I don't really know.) Much like Barker's Tekumel/EPT stuff, in fact, though obviously much more extensive. All the same, I am very suspicious of anything that seems to take a given RPG world as the pure, simple AND SUFFICIENT setting for its story, and if the choice were binary I would be on the side trying to discourage anyone from doing this, ever! Dave From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 09:06:45 1995 Received: from gate.bmgmusic.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA42270; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 09:06:45 -0400 Received: from in1vines.bmgmusic.com by gate.bmgmusic.com with SMTP id AA10702 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for <[log in to unmask]>); Thu, 15 Jun 1995 08:06:27 -0500 Received: by IN1VINES.bmgmusic.com; Thu, 15 Jun 95 9:09:29 EDT Date: Thu, 15 Jun 95 8:55:47 EDT Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: A Mind is a Terrible Thing... While I do agree with Chanticler/Jim that Gresham's Law's operation in the SF/Fantasy field (i.e: bad product pushes out good) is A Bad Thing, I wouldn't go as far as he does. Though total numbers of SF/Fantasy books published are down somewhat from the peak boom years around 1990 (with original SF novels particularly thin), there still are hundreds and hundreds of new books in the field every year; more than anyone can read. But, really, the Law in operation here isn't really Gresham's (since good work is still being published), but Sturgeon's. We have to expect that 90 % of SF, like everything, will be crap. (I'd personally set the net a little lower and say only about 75 % of what's published today is crap.) And both the percentage and the specific designation of crap depends on the reader: to some, ANY fantasy is an abomination, since only the hardest of SF is good enough, while others are more lenient. My point being: there still is lots of good writing out there (more than ever before, I'd say), so we should focus on it and do our best to ignore poor/derivative/bad writing. Parenthetically, Chanticler/Jim's comment about reading and literacy being on the decline is just plain wrong. Book sales in this country (I haven't seen figures for others) have been on the rise every year for more than a decade (most obviouly seen in the fact that big bestsellers these days, aka John Grisham, sell several times as many copies of a single book as the biggest sellers of a decade ago), and are projected to keep increasing. Why do you think there are all those new superstores? Tom Doherty of Tor gave a _very_ inspiring speech on this topic at the Nebula awards, but I'd seen the numbers (in PW's annual wrap-up of the industry) already. Readership of magazines, I hear tell, is also up (though not in our field), though newspapers have been declining steadily since WW II. But reading books for pleasure is more popular now than it ever has been. Andrew Wheeler From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 09:33:19 1995 Received: from astro.ocis.temple.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA30405; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 09:33:19 -0400 Received: by astro.ocis.temple.edu (5.61/25) id AA20560; Thu, 15 Jun 95 09:33:15 -0400 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 09:33:09 -0400 (EDT) From: "Thomas M. Whitehead" <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: book covers (from BOOK ARTS) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I forward without permission for interest of any of the professional writers on SF_LIT, some of whom have already broached the topic of cover art/author involvement. <*>------------<*>------------<*>------------<*>------------<*> Thomas M. Whitehead Special Collections Temple University Libraries Philadelphia, PA 19122 <*> <*> Voice: 215-204-8230 Fax: 215-204-5201 EMail: [log in to unmask] <*>------------<*>------------<*>------------<*>------------<*> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 16:56:19 +1000 From: Diane Caney <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: epigraphs and illustrations for book covers Dear everyone, I am doing my PhD at the University of Tasmania, Australia. I am looking at the intertextuality of the works of Patrick White and Sidney Nolan. I am interested in any articles or books on 'The Theory of Epigraphs'(in books), and/or the history of illustrated book covers - i.e. have writers traditionally (or ever) been included in decisions as to what their covers will look like? Obviously anything about Nolan's book covers would be useful, but it is more the general history of the physical attributes of the novel in which I am interested. Any replies would be greatly appreciated, Diane Caney. From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 12:06:12 1995 Received: from bos1h.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA66159; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:06:12 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:06:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:06:10 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: From Espana Nunez: Re: From Ed McKnight: Re: Arena (fwd) To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I have a huge reference library, but since I don't like TV or Trek, I have no books devoted to either. However, nothing about screen or TV scripting is mentioned in the Fred Brown entry in the SF ENCYCLOPEDIA, and TWENTIETH CENTURY SF WRITERS -- 3RD EDITION, which purports to give a complete bibliography, mentions only the Alfred Hitchcock Show for TV credits. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 12:07:06 1995 Received: from Alice-Thurman.tenet.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA50380; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:07:06 -0400 Received: (from teriw@localhost) by Alice-Thurman.tenet.edu (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA00552; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 11:07:04 -0500 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 11:06:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa J Warren <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: From Jim: A Mind is a Terrible Thing... In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950615024339.2504H-100000@bigcat> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I liked DARK KNIGHT ok (although I really don't care too much for Miller's drawing unless he's inked by Klaus Janson (i.e. see the DAREDEVIL comics during the early and mid-80's). I still would have to rate WATCHMEN in terms of story AND art as mucho superior to DK. Gary On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Richard Scott wrote: > Ok, Jim, for perhaps even more 'seminal' graphic novels :- > > The Dark Knight Returns, by Frank Miller. > > Definitely as good as The Watchmen. > > > > AussieVamp > Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) > Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. > --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place > > > From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 12:12:57 1995 Received: from Alice-Thurman.tenet.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA68371; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:12:57 -0400 Received: (from teriw@localhost) by Alice-Thurman.tenet.edu (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA01524; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 11:12:55 -0500 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 11:12:51 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa J Warren <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: X-files and government conspiracies In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The flip side to all the news exposes of government cover-ups is that most people have gotten so USED to the feds lying to us that nobody REALLY seems to care anymore. Gary L. Warren (aka "glw" or "mr. gar" dep. upon my mood of the day!) :D On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Colleen Stumbaugh wrote: > This is a somewhat tongue-in-cheek view, but as a Federal > Employee, I am not sure that the government could keep a secret that > well. Look at what reporters have uncovered as real coverups (drug testing > on soldiers, and in the our subway systems), so I am not sure that some > harder evidence would not have gotten out. Besides, no one here can keep > a secret. Okay, okay, we are a library and more inclined to give out > info than hide it. :-) > Colleen > _________________________________________________________________________ > Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian [log in to unmask] > Library of Congress (202) 707-4132 > Washington, DC 20540-4861 FAX: (202) 707-4142 > These opinions are mine, Mine MINE! > __________________________________________________________________________ > > > > From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 12:17:50 1995 Received: from cobra.uni.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA55268; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:17:50 -0400 Received: from uni.edu by uni.edu (PMDF V4.3-7 #4975) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 11:17:31 CDT Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 11:17:31 -0500 (CDT) From: "Tom Remington [UNI ENGLISH DEPT.]" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Heinlein's speeches To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Envelope-To: [log in to unmask] X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" X-Vms-Cc: REMINGTONT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Andy Butler wrote: > Whilst we're talking Heinlein, can any give a reference, or cite the > passage where Heinlein talked about Speculative Fiction? I believe it > was in 1941. (There's a thesis on Heinlein here at Hull, but mostly on > the late novels. Maybe I should check through this) According to *The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction* (Revised edition), under the entry "Speculative Fiction," "In the symposium published as *Of Other Worlds* (coll 1947) ed. Lloyd Arthur ESHBACK, Robert A. HEINLEIN proposed the term to describe a subset of sf involving extrapolation from known science and technology 'to produce a new situation, a new framework for human action'." Cheers, Tom Remington From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 12:28:02 1995 Received: from Kitten.mcs.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA29626; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:28:02 -0400 Received: from nsls1.nslsilus.org (nsls1.nslsilus.org [192.160.127.70]) by kitten.mcs.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA16319 for <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 11:28:01 -0500 Received: by nsls1.nslsilus.org (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.5) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 15 Jun 95 11:28 CDT Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 11:28:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Roberta Johnson <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: From Roberta Johnson: Re: Odyssey as Ur-plot To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950615023659.2504F-100000@bigcat> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Richard Scott wrote: > Feminine of seminal is ovulal? > > Anyway, good question, but why can't it be the same? > > AussieVamp > Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) > Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. > --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place > > Hmmm, ovulal, I like it. I guess my point was that if language reflects society, doesn't this imply that the first or original idea is always masculine? OK, I went to the shelves in the Reference Room. According to the Nonsexist Word Finder: A Dictionary of Gender-Free Usage by Rosalie Maggio (Oryx Press 1988): Alternatives are given for "seminal" because it is the adjectival form of "semen", than which nothing could be more male. Using the word underscores the notion that only men have important "seminal" ideas. They suggest germinal, prototypal and others. I'm perfectly happy with germinal. From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 12:48:37 1995 Received: from stimpy.ir.miami.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA64120; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:48:37 -0400 Received: from umiami.ir.miami.edu by umiami.ir.miami.edu (PMDF V4.3-13 #7207) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:48:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:48:29 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: 1989 Hugo In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Envelope-To: [log in to unmask] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Thanks to Mike Resnick and other responders. I didn't know about the situation for the Nebulas; that's pretty interesting. On Wed, 14 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > I just checked; as I said, the 1989 Hugo went to C. J. Cherryh's CYTEEN. > > The Hugos work on the calender year. The dates of eligibility go from > January 1 through December 31. > > The Nebulas work on a fiscal year beginning with the date of publication. > Hence, a story that comes out on March 23 of 1995 will be eligible through > March 22 of 1996, and if it makes the ballot of 1996 stories, it will not > be voted on until 1997. > > The Nebulas used to run on the same calender as the Hugos, but a lot of > people with stories that came out in October, November and December felt > they were being treated unfairly. (This does not apply to the Hugos, where > nominations close in April, so everyone has time to read everything; the > Nebulas usually close around January 4.) So we changed the rules...but now > I think it's a little unfair to the very oldest stories: who can remember > a 4,000-worder they read in a magazine more than 2 years ago? > > -- Mike Resnick > Fiona From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 13:15:00 1995 Received: from ulkyvm.louisville.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA31403; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 13:15:00 -0400 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Received: from ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU by ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8891; Thu, 15 Jun 95 13:17:41 EDT Received: from ULKYVM (RAROEH01) by ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU (Mailer R2.10 ptf000) with BSMTP id 3662; Thu, 15 Jun 95 13:17:41 EDT Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X Date: Thu, 15 Jun 95 13:17:40 EDT From: Bob Roehm <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Fredric Brown/Arena To: "SF & Fantasy Discussion Forum" <[log in to unmask]> If I might weigh in on this, my recollection is that the script had been written (and possibly filming had already begun) when someone, perhaps Gene Coon himself, realized the similarity to Brown's story. Rights were hurriedly bought and "based on a story by Fredric Brown" was added to the writing credits. Bob Robert A. Roehm Asst., Office of Collection Mgmt., Ekstrom Library Univ of Louisville, Louisville KY 40292 [log in to unmask] - (502)852-8715 From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 13:46:25 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA43885; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 13:46:25 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA22627; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:45:59 -0500 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:46:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: From Eric A. Johnson: RE: Libraries and SF Collections In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950615124407.18014E-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Yes, books are books, and fiction is fiction. Distinctions are silly/dangerous when used to marginalise different types. Useful when you want to find things, perhaps, though. However, they also should be treated the same, but they aren't. There is no reason a western, a thriller, etc., can't be as good as something about boring people sitting around talking etc., which can often be gushed over in literary/academic circles. AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Arthur Hlavaty wrote: > > When I was in library school, I was most interested to learn that neither > Dewey decimal nor Library of Congress distinguishes between "mainstream" > and "category" fiction. Could there be a lesson in that? > > Arthur D. Hlavaty [log in to unmask] > Church of the SuperGenius In Wile E. We Trust > > From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 13:51:09 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA29531; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 13:51:09 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA22958; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:50:42 -0500 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:50:59 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Cc: [log in to unmask] Subject: Terraforming/Marsforming/? Red/Green Mars In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950615124842.18014F-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Something interesting in these books is they keep using the word terraforming. However, they use areo as a prefix with sciences, and use 'marsquakes.' So, why terraforming? They using it in the literal sense of changing the earth, as in the dirt, not as in The Earth, the planet? AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 13:51:22 1995 Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA79475; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 13:51:22 -0400 Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by jazz.ucc.uno.edu (PMDF #2820 ) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:50:38 CST Date: 15 Jun 1995 12:50:38 -0600 (CST) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: I'll bet you can't read this entire subject line To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" X-Vms-Cc: JHNLI Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Parden me if I've missed any administrative news regarding the new subject lines. What is the reason for the placement of the sender's name in the line. I've seen -- From Jim Re: From Andy Re: From Stan. When I'm in my mail directory I sometimes can't tell what the dang message is about. I'm literally swamped with messages everday and rely on the subject lines to weed out the pulp. Does anybody know the reasoning behind this and whether it is going to last? John Noel From cstu Thu Jun 15 21:41:45 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA28678; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 21:41:45 -0400 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 21:41:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: I'll bet you can't read this entire subject line In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII John, The new subject headings are my creation and are temporary. When the problems on Monday with LISTPROC developed, the SF-LIT messages continued to come to me for approval, but I was unable to send them out. When the problem was fixed on late Wednesday, I tried to send the messages out through the normal channels, but nooooo, that would not work. It seems the system had dropped the messages from Monday through most of Tuesday out of the que. Since I still had copies of the messages in my mail box, I then forwarded them to the list. To stress that the messages were not really from me, I put the name of the really poster in the subject heading. Unfortunately, I guess I just confused people more. When I forward a message from another person (it happens occasionly), I have put the name of the sender in the subject line. Can someone suggest another method for me to alert you to these messages? I do not want to take credit for others posts. Colleen Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT [log in to unmask] On Thu, 15 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > Parden me if I've missed any administrative news regarding the new > subject lines. What is the reason for the placement of the sender's name in the > line. I've seen -- From Jim Re: From Andy Re: From Stan. When I'm in my mail > directory I sometimes can't tell what the dang message is about. I'm literally > swamped with messages everday and rely on the subject lines to weed out the > pulp. Does anybody know the reasoning behind this and whether it is going to > last? > > John Noel > From cstu Thu Jun 15 21:44:14 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA31639; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 21:44:14 -0400 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 21:44:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: On-Line SF&F Lit. In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Robert, In LC MARVEL, the Library of Congress's gopher, there is a burrow for What IF..., a employee science fiction and fantasy forum. In that burrow is several lists of science fiction and fantasy usenet groups (those available to Library staff) and the Jay Badenhoop list of listservs. To contact Jay about his list of science fiction listservs, you can send a message to [log in to unmask] The URL for the burrow on MARVEL is gopher://marvel.loc.gov:2070/00/employee/clubs/scific. Hope this is of some help. Colleen _________________________________________________________________________ Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian [log in to unmask] Library of Congress (202) 707-4132 Washington, DC 20540-4861 FAX: (202) 707-4142 These opinions are mine, Mine MINE! __________________________________________________________________________ On Thu, 15 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > Greetings all, > I am trying to put together an Internet SF&F Literature guide. This would > include Web pages, E-Zines, Newsgroups such as this, etc... I would > appreciate input from anyone who might subscribe, or browsed such places > on the net. It must be SF&F driven, if not excusively, then at least in > majority. When I have a suitable list, which means I have to confirm the > existence, I will submit this to the SF&F Writer's Workshop, of which I am > member. Thanks in advance. > > > Later, > > Robert D. Bair > IBM Charlotte RDBAIR at CLTVM1 > CSP Test Engineering Support > [log in to unmask] > AR: WB3AHC, 1st Class FCC: P1-3-17298, Tripoli: #2253, NAR: #60163 > From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 13:52:33 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA81587; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 13:52:33 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA23038; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:52:07 -0500 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:52:24 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: X-files and government conspiracies In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950615125120.18014G-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, there are different levels of conspiracy, too. The higher up you get, the less likely you are to find stuff up/prove things. Too high and they kill you, I guess. :-) However, there is lots of evidence/so-called evidence out there, which perhaps is part of the 'we found some things out' errors/leaks process? AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 13:54:00 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA14919; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 13:54:00 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA23217; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:53:34 -0500 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:53:51 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: From Jim: A Mind is a Terrible Thing... In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.950615080612.23387B-100000@gusun> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950615125314.18014H-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Probably close to being true. Have read that he wants to get his hands on Superman one day, which would be really cool ;-) AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Jimmy wrote: > On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Richard Scott wrote: > > > Ok, Jim, for perhaps even more 'seminal' graphic novels :- > > > > The Dark Knight Returns, by Frank Miller. > > > > Definitely as good as The Watchmen. > > > > AussieVamp > > Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) > > Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. > > --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place > > I feel that Frank Miller is the _best_ man working in comics today. Dark > Knight is tremendous, as is his Sin City work and Give Me Liberty and > Martha Washington Goes To War. > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > _________ > / | \ > | | | Jimmy Coraci > | ___ | ___ | [log in to unmask] > | / \ / \ | > / \____v____/ \ The circle is now complete. > / | /V\ | \ When I left you I was but a learner... > / \ /|||\ / \ NOW I AM THE MASTER > \______\*-----*/______/ > \_______/ > _____________________________________________________________________________ > http://www.georgetown.edu:80/organizations/webclub/pages/coracij/coracij.html > > > From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 13:59:20 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA24201; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 13:59:20 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA23499; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:58:52 -0500 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:59:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: From Jim: A Mind is a Terrible Thing... In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950615125755.18014K-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Yep, but they were later. Gaiman *is* very good, though. >From memory, I think the first graphic novel was _Camelot 3000_ ? Also well worth reading, too. AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Ruth Ballam wrote: > >> Ok, Jim, for perhaps even more 'seminal' graphic novels :- > > The Dark Knight Returns, by Frank Miller. >> > > I'd add the Sandman books > Ruth Ballam, Computing Service, University of Plymouth > ------------------------------------------------------- > ^ ^ > * * "Waking up and getting up has never been easy" > x Elastica > ------------------------------------------------------- > From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 14:13:11 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA41181; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 14:13:11 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA24423; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 13:12:44 -0500 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 13:13:02 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: From Jim: A Mind is a Terrible Thing... In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950615130919.18014N-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Try some of the White Wolf books (who are even doing Moorcock stuff now) they are better than average, certainly. One world setting is no more valid than another. I read the first couple of Shadowrun books, and they were pretty bad. Then you can try Joel Rosenberg for some other fun stories. And, of course, Niven's Dream Park. :-) It is also silly to say a book should never be written about a particular background for X reasons. i.e. a lot of gaming world backgrounds are a lot mroe coherent, detailed, well thought out, than random novel 'Y', so they are a great place to start. However, I'd probably have to agree with the DnD bit, to a certain degree. However, I have had people report that some of them *are* good, i.e. Ravenloft, perhaps? AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 14:20:09 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA69492; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 14:20:09 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA227270230; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 14:17:10 -0400 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 14:17:10 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The Oddessy? So if we call The Odyssey (for discussion's sake) the seminal male plot, is there an equivalent female plot? And what is the feminine equivalent to seminal, anyway? Roberta Johnson (not Robert as my address insists) *********************** End Quote I have often heard the letter being used as the ideal female form of writing. But, then again, the our modern novel, which has developed from Romantic and Victorian era popularity, was a distinctly female form. _The Oddessy_ (read: Greek mythology) is rumoured to have been written by a woman (how valid this is, I don't know), but it's not a *novel* it's a long poem that has been traslated into a prose-like English. History aside, my personal opinion resides with Woolf and her quest for the expression of a true reality, and the desire to find a 'female voice (read: women authors that women could read, relate to, and be inspired by). But, that means that a person must agree with the idea that a woman's reality is different from a man's (I dare say, some would say yea, and others nea, to this idea) - and I think this is where the true difference comes in. I have been trying to more clearly express my own definition of the differences between male and femal authors, but can't come up with a *nice* way of saying it (grrrrr)! I will say that women do express themselves in the form of the journey w/adventures, and they've been doing so for quite a while. So, in the strictest sense, _The Oddessey_ does apply. But, the manner in which a women will express her journey, what that journey consists of, and what is important on that journey can, and will, vary drastically from the male version of such an adventure. A SF comparison? Well, Ursula Le Guin has been brought up several times in the cannon fodder discussion - her _Left Hand of Darkness_ is distinctly social in it's focus with strong sexual/gender statements and mind-benders (read: forces you to imagine the 'unimaginable'). Compare her to Asimov, Dick, Bradbury, Pohl, or Burgess - none of them examine the social aspect as deeply or as personally (read: making the reader feel the personal impact of the situation) as Le Guin, and a large part of this is that letter-writting style that Le Guin uses (much like the effectiveness of M. Shelley's letter writing style in _Frankenstein_). >From what I've heard about _Mother Tongue_ (a book I have yet to find a copy of) I believe it expresses the difference best. Our differences in experience have resulted in a difference in language - but in a very subtle way. Perhaps someone else could add a more specific angle to this. Just my 2 cents worth. Adora Pozolinski [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 15:40:47 1995 Received: from x15.pilot.net by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA48545; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 15:40:47 -0400 Received: from Altera.COM (unknown-1-1.altera.com) by mail.pilot.net (4.1 1/7/93 /SMI-4.1) id AA25612; Thu, 15 Jun 95 12:40:46 PDT Received: from rodan.altera.com by Altera.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12570; Thu, 15 Jun 95 12:41:49 PDT Received: from martinw by rodan.altera.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA27307; Thu, 15 Jun 95 12:42:18 PDT From: [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Comic SF Reply-To: [log in to unmask] Date: Thu, 15 Jun 95 12:31:26 PDT Message-Id: <9506151931.1A70DC@martinw> X-Mailer: SelectMAIL 1.2 Jimmy Coraci ([log in to unmask]) wrote: |I feel that Frank Miller is the _best_ man working in comics today. Dark |Knight is tremendous, as is his Sin City work and Give Me Liberty and |Martha Washington Goes To War. I'm not sure how we got on this thread (perhaps it was when someone mentioned Watchmen as canon fodder?), but if anyone's interested, here're my two pesos: Frank Miller's Dark Knight was certainly a defining moment in comic (and perhaps literary) history. Frank's depiction of Batman was probably the finest character portrayal any comic character had received until then. That, combined with fine storytelling technique, innovative paneling, masterful use of characters, and a successful effort at incorporating many of the themes/anxieties of the day makes Dark Knight, in my mind, worthy of mention in any discussion of today's popular culture. Perhaps I'm unfairly comparing his later works to Dark Knight, but I simply don't feel that Frank has delivered as much with them. Although I feel that Elektra: Assassin was a worthy successor to Dark Knight (to which I think much is owed to the artist), I find much of his later work (Give Me Liberty, Daredevil, Sin City, etc.) terribly heavy-handed and almost clumsy in their delivery of ideas. There's no doubt that there's innovation in his work (i.e. the boldness of Sin City's art, the social vision of Give Me Liberty/Martha Washington, or the absurdly detailed violence of Hard Boiled), but I'm rapidly tiring of his stand-on-the-soapbox style and I'm beginning to wonder if he has anything better than more Sin City stories inside him. That said about Frank, I have to mention both Alan Moore (of Watchmen fame). If Dark Knight was the first stellar character treatment in comics, I think Watchmen might be its first epic; whereas Miller delights in the overt display, Moore revels in layers of complexity. His Watchmen, Miracleman, and Swamp Thing works have added an incredible depth to the treatment of superheroes in comics in terms of story and character. I'll also put in a plug for his From Hell series, his well-researched treatment of Jack the Ripper. I realize that my two pesos have turned into municipal bonds. It's not that I feel strongly about any of this stuff, you know... ;) OK, one last, brief mention: Neil Gaiman. I think enough people on this list know and value him enough without my having to talk about him. I'll close by saying that there are several quality (and literary) people writing for comics these days. If anyone is laboring under the impression that comics are a literary wasteland (as some once thought about SF), I encourage them to check out one or more of these writers. -Martin S. Won [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 19:12:23 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA20733; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 19:12:23 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA075267943; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 19:12:23 -0400 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 19:12:23 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: From [log in to unmask]: The X-files Thank you, I would apreciate any mailing list referrals. From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 19:24:20 1995 Received: from [204.182.15.10] by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA69102; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 19:24:20 -0400 Received: from B17.Catch22.COM (espana@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by B17.Catch22.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA25543 for <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 16:29:00 -0700 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Url: http://www.Catch22.COM/ X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6 4/21/95 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: From [log in to unmask]: The X-files In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 15 Jun 1995 08:09:00 EDT." <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 16:28:58 -0700 From: Espana Nunez <[log in to unmask]> > > >Does any one know, if he is on-line with us? > > > > > If you mean Chris Carter (the man from The X-Files), then I believe the > answer is yes. Having said that, I'm not sure where. (Helpful, huh?) I've > heard it said that there's an X-Files newsgroup that includes a prolific but > different Chris Carter, by the way. > > Dave I just asked on one of my usual haunts, #xf and they said that CC is on Delphi, apparently he doesnt post to atx(or at least not often) and is on rarely and at odd hours. If you want more info I can ask on the x-philes mailing list. -- Espana N. Sheriff "Hip-Hop Bishop of Beat! The Cool, [log in to unmask] Gone Daddio of the Deva Dimensions!" http://www.Catch22.COM/~espana -Doom Patrol From cstu Fri Jun 16 06:56:54 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA32573; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 06:56:54 -0400 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 06:56:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: From [log in to unmask]: The X-files (fwd) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII LISTPROC problems again. This is a forward. Subject: Re: From [log in to unmask]: The X-files Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 16:28:58 -0700 From: Espana Nunez <[log in to unmask]> > > >Does any one know, if he is on-line with us? > > > > > If you mean Chris Carter (the man from The X-Files), then I believe the > answer is yes. Having said that, I'm not sure where. (Helpful, huh?) I've > heard it said that there's an X-Files newsgroup that includes a prolific but > different Chris Carter, by the way. > > Dave I just asked on one of my usual haunts, #xf and they said that CC is on Delphi, apparently he doesnt post to atx(or at least not often) and is on rarely and at odd hours. If you want more info I can ask on the x-philes mailing list. -- Espana N. Sheriff "Hip-Hop Bishop of Beat! The Cool, [log in to unmask] Gone Daddio of the Deva Dimensions!" http://www.Catch22.COM/~espana -Doom Patrol From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 21:22:37 1995 Received: from [204.182.15.10] by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA33477; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 21:22:37 -0400 Received: from B17.Catch22.COM (espana@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by B17.Catch22.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA27543 for <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 18:27:23 -0700 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Url: http://www.Catch22.COM/ X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6 4/21/95 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: On-Line SF&F Lit. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 15 Jun 1995 21:10:32 EDT." <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 18:27:22 -0700 From: Espana Nunez <[log in to unmask]> > Greetings all, > I am trying to put together an Internet SF&F Literature guide. This would > include Web pages, E-Zines, Newsgroups such as this, etc... I would > appreciate input from anyone who might subscribe, or browsed such places > on the net. It must be SF&F driven, if not excusively, then at least in > majority. When I have a suitable list, which means I have to confirm the > existence, I will submit this to the SF&F Writer's Workshop, of which I am > member. Thanks in advance. > My pages have a few links. Try Links of Interest to fandom among them. Anything that I or laurie mann (links of interest) dont have should be at Yahoo. -- Espana N. Sheriff "Hip-Hop Bishop of Beat! The Cool, [log in to unmask] Gone Daddio of the Deva Dimensions!" http://www.Catch22.COM/~espana -Doom Patrol From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 21:23:33 1995 Received: from panix.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA82206; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 21:23:33 -0400 Received: (from hlavaty@localhost) by panix.com (8.6.12/8.6.12+PanixU1.1) id VAA05903; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 21:23:31 -0400 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 21:23:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Arthur Hlavaty <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Fredric Brown/Arena In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Bob Roehm wrote: > If I might weigh in on this, my recollection is that the script had been > written (and possibly filming had already begun) when someone, perhaps Gene > Coon himself, realized the similarity to Brown's story. Rights were hurriedly > bought and "based on a story by Fredric Brown" was added to the writing > credits. > Harlan Ellison tells this story (without names) in one of his books. Arthur D. Hlavaty [log in to unmask] Church of the SuperGenius In Wile E. We Trust From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 21:43:04 1995 Received: from gusun.acc.georgetown.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA61003; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 21:43:04 -0400 Received: by gusun.acc.georgetown.edu; (5.0/1.1.8.2/6Jan9518:19pm) id AA19975; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 21:42:01 +0500 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 21:42:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Jimmy <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Terraforming/Marsforming/? Red/Green Mars In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950615124842.18014F-100000@bigcat> Message-Id: <Pine.SOL.3.91.950615214026.19736B-100000@gusun> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Length: 1273 On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Richard Scott wrote: > Something interesting in these books is they keep using the word > terraforming. However, they use areo as a prefix with sciences, and use > 'marsquakes.' > > So, why terraforming? They using it in the literal sense of changing the > earth, as in the dirt, not as in The Earth, the planet? > > AussieVamp > Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) > Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. > --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place Richard, The two uses that come to mind are in James Camneron's Aliens and Dan Simmon's Hyperion novels. Where else? - Jimmy _____________________________________________________________________________ _________ / | \ | | | Jimmy Coraci | ___ | ___ | [log in to unmask] | / \ / \ | / \____v____/ \ The circle is now complete. / | /V\ | \ When I left you I was but a learner... / \ /|||\ / \ NOW I AM THE MASTER \______\*-----*/______/ \_______/ _____________________________________________________________________________ http://www.georgetown.edu:80/organizations/webclub/pages/coracij/coracij.html From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 15 22:31:14 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA26140; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 22:31:14 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA290819874; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 22:31:14 -0400 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 22:31:14 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: X-Files, Conspiracies, etc. Time to add my two cents worth to the background chatter over so-called "X-Files". X-Files, the TV show: Never miss an episode. Worth the price of a basic model VCR. That one with the Circus of the Strange was a real hum-dinger. The wife thinks Mulder is cute. I think Sculley's smarts and professionalism more than makes up for her not-quite-super-model looks. Can't wait for next season. X-Files, the Government Cover-Up: I simply fall in behind the view of Arthur C. Clarke. To paraphrase, he has said that, "If the government really has evidence of alien visits, such a cover-up could not last more that 48 hours. Hence, there can be no conspiracy, unless of course I am part of the conspiracy." The old guy can still bring it, eh? -Phil "BurnChrome" Rosen From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 16 07:05:20 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA31697; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 07:05:20 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 12:04:56 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 16 Jun 95 12:04:52 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: "Non-sexist language" - pointless wild goose chase. Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 12:03:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 42 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 >Hmmm, ovulal, I like it. I guess my point was that if language reflects >society, doesn't this imply that the first or original idea is always >masculine? No, it doesn't. >OK, I went to the shelves in the Reference Room. According to the >Nonsexist Word Finder: A Dictionary of Gender-Free Usage by Rosalie >Maggio (Oryx Press 1988): Alternatives are given for "seminal" because >it is the adjectival form of "semen", than which nothing could be more >male. Using the word underscores the notion that only men have important >"seminal" ideas. Of course this is all bollocks - which obviously underscores the notion that that only men can have truly stupid ideas, yes? Well, apparently not... I hope that it was a joke, but it's dangerous and so it bothers me anyway. Depending on how I feel I sometimes like to point out that "seminal" means "seedlike" and derives directly from the Latin. Its use to describe a radical (spot the similarity, anyone?) new idea can be elegant and poetic. Its primary quality in these cases is that can even be pertinent - as indeed could "germinal" if only it was in flaming common use, as "seminal" or "radical" is... It's not the word's fault if some crazed people with nothing better to do think that its most important feature is that it's also reminiscent of "semen" and a valid spelling of its adjectival form. Apparently there are those who think that that makes it the same word, and a subset who even think that one word or both can somehow be infused with evil prejudice as a result of this and related linguistic history. I'm sure Rosalie Maggio really has a great deal to contribute in some walk of life. I hope the prescriptive bigot gets on with it, stays away from me and stops ignorantly trying to spread damaging ideas among the gullible. This is probably the kind of embarrassing fool who thinks that "herstory" is a remarkably good, clever and useful linguistic invention. The whole area of concern is unbelievably short-sighted, and quaint, and hysterical. Still hoping it was a joke really... Dave From cstu Fri Jun 16 07:23:19 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA32000; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 07:23:19 -0400 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 07:23:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: DEATH IN SF FAMILY (fwd) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A sad day for all science fiction fans. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 16 Jun 1995 07:20:07 EST From: CHRISTINE T CALLAHAN <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: DEATH IN SF FAMILY ------------------------------------ AUTHOR: CHRISTINE T CALLAHAN ------------------------------------ Washington Post, Fri. morning: Roger Zelazny died June 16th of complications from cancer. From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 16 08:51:28 1995 Received: from aec1.apgea.army.mil by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA28307; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 08:51:28 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Date: 16 Jun 95 08:47 EST Subject: Re[2]: X-Files, Conspiracies, etc. To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> On June 16 -Phil "BurnChrome" Rosen wrote: >I think Sculley's smarts and professionalism more than makes up for >her not-quite-super-model looks. Actually, IMHO, I find Scully to be one of the most attractive actresses on TV today. Part of that attractiveness is her smarts and professionalism of course, but she is very good looking too. She would make one hell of a work partner, too. I would much rather have the beauty of Scully than any of those "super-model looks that are more unrealistic than anything. Michael Moncey "History has the relation to truth that theology has to religion- i.e., none to speak of" - Lazarus Long From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 16 08:54:00 1995 Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA70671; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 08:54:00 -0400 Received: from uxa.liv.ac.uk by mail.liv.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Fri, 16 Jun 1995 13:53:46 +0100 From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: "Non-sexist language" - pointless wild goose chase. To: [log in to unmask] Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 13:53:43 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" at Jun 16, 95 07:21:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 987 In the last mail D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple said: > > This is > probably the kind of embarrassing fool who thinks that "herstory" is a > remarkably good, clever and useful linguistic invention. > > > Dave > Actually, I kind of like "herstory" - as a pun which makes a particular point, rather than as an alternative word which we MUST use. You're right about "seminal" deriving from "seed" - though that raises a fascinating point about whether we are right to use the term "semen" at all, because surely the human seed is the ovum? (Or do we only use the term seed for the fertilised object anyway)? -- Andy Sawyer, (Who is not a botanist and may be confused) Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK 0151-794-2733/2696 [log in to unmask] http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html "Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 16 08:54:00 1995 Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA70671; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 08:54:00 -0400 Received: from uxa.liv.ac.uk by mail.liv.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Fri, 16 Jun 1995 13:53:46 +0100 From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: "Non-sexist language" - pointless wild goose chase. To: [log in to unmask] Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 13:53:43 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" at Jun 16, 95 07:21:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 987 In the last mail D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple said: > > This is > probably the kind of embarrassing fool who thinks that "herstory" is a > remarkably good, clever and useful linguistic invention. > > > Dave > Actually, I kind of like "herstory" - as a pun which makes a particular point, rather than as an alternative word which we MUST use. You're right about "seminal" deriving from "seed" - though that raises a fascinating point about whether we are right to use the term "semen" at all, because surely the human seed is the ovum? (Or do we only use the term seed for the fertilised object anyway)? -- Andy Sawyer, (Who is not a botanist and may be confused) Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK 0151-794-2733/2696 [log in to unmask] http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html "Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 16 10:02:56 1995 Received: from gateway.morgan.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA55856; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 10:02:56 -0400 Received: from exadm1.morgan.com ([138.20.156.11]) by gateway.morgan.com with SMTP id <41513>; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 10:02:42 -0400 Received: from nylanr01.morgan.com (nylanr02.morgan.com [138.20.97.23]) by exadm1.morgan.com (8.6.12/sendmail.cf.hub v.98beta) with SMTP id KAA21953 for <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 10:01:20 -0400 Received: from cc:Mail by nylanr01.morgan.com id AA803321667; Fri, 16 Jun 95 09:30:09 EST Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 10:30:09 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re[2]: On-Line SF&F Lit. http://www.etext.org/ archives e-zines by name and category, such as SF. It also has a link to John Labovitz's (sp?) e-zine list, which describes additional titles. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: On-Line SF&F Lit. Author: [log in to unmask] at nylanr01 Date: 6/16/95 7:06 AM > Greetings all, > I am trying to put together an Internet SF&F Literature guide. This would > include Web pages, E-Zines, Newsgroups such as this, etc... I would > appreciate input from anyone who might subscribe, or browsed such places > on the net. It must be SF&F driven, if not excusively, then at least in > majority. When I have a suitable list, which means I have to confirm the > existence, I will submit this to the SF&F Writer's Workshop, of which I am > member. Thanks in advance. > My pages have a few links. Try Links of Interest to fandom among them. Anything that I or laurie mann (links of interest) dont have should be at Yahoo. -- Espana N. Sheriff "Hip-Hop Bishop of Beat! The Cool, [log in to unmask] Gone Daddio of the Deva Dimensions!" http://www.Catch22.COM/~espana -Doom Patrol From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 16 10:07:21 1995 Received: from [193.116.1.4] by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA28398; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 10:07:21 -0400 Return-Path: [log in to unmask] Received: from squidgy.sni.co.uk (squidgy.sni.co.uk [137.223.5.110]) by innergate.sni.co.uk (8.6.11/8.6.6) with SMTP id OAA27885 for <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 14:06:24 GMT Received: by squidgy.sni.co.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 16 Jun 95 15:11:11 UTC From: Mark Woolrich <[log in to unmask]> To: "sf-lit%loc.gov" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: DEATH IN SF FAMILY (fwd) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 15:07:00 UTC Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 13 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 -> -> ------------------------------------ -> AUTHOR: CHRISTINE T CALLAHAN -> ------------------------------------ -> Washington Post, Fri. morning: Roger Zelazny died June 16th of -> complications from cancer. -> A sad day indeed. Wierd too. I was listening to Hawkwind/lords' Damnation Alley on the way to work this morning. markw - who doesn't believe in synchronicity From cstu Fri Jun 16 12:35:36 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA22959; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 12:35:36 -0400 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 12:35:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: DEATH IN SF FAMILY (fwd) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Mark Woolrich <[log in to unmask]> To: "sf-lit%loc.gov" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: DEATH IN SF FAMILY (fwd) -> -> ------------------------------------ -> AUTHOR: CHRISTINE T CALLAHAN -> ------------------------------------ -> Washington Post, Fri. morning: Roger Zelazny died June 16th of -> complications from cancer. -> A sad day indeed. Wierd too. I was listening to Hawkwind/lords' Damnation Alley on the way to work this morning. markw - who doesn't believe in synchronicity From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 16 11:17:21 1995 Received: from palantiri.spb.su by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA56735; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 11:17:21 -0400 Received: from palnet.UUCP (uukomp@localhost) by bar.palantiri.spb.su (8.6.8/8.6.12) with UUCP id TAA03416 for [log in to unmask]; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 19:10:04 +0400 Received: from palantiri.spb.su by palantiri.spb.su (UUPC/extended 1.12b) with UUCP; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 19:15:38 EDT Received: by palantiri.spb.su (FIDO2UU 1.92b [OS2]); Fri, 16 Jun 1995 19:15:36 +0400 To: [log in to unmask] From: Serge Berezhnoy <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Heinlein's speech Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 19:15:36 +0400 Mr A.P. Sawyer wrote: > Does anyone know details of a speech Robert A Heinlein gave to > the Naval Academy in the 1970s? Is it in print anywhere? If you talk about the speach on "Five Writer's Rules for Writing and Publishing", then you'll have no problems with it: learn Russian and read... :) The speach was published in translation here. And it seems to me it was published in _Analog_ in 1973... Maybe, I'm wrong... Good SF! Serge V. Berezhnoy St.Petersburg, Russia [log in to unmask] ... Welcome Here! (Hangman's oldest joke) * Origin: Camelot-89. Voice call (812)-310-6007 (2:5030/207.2) From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 16 12:27:17 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA64105; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 12:27:17 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA198520036; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 12:27:17 -0400 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 12:27:17 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Fwd: Please advise Putting aside the scarasm that this response elicits, the X-files is one of the best science fiction mediums ever written. The Truth is Out There! I'll move on, Thank you. --------------------- Forwarded message: From: [log in to unmask] (Becky Smith) To: [log in to unmask] Date: 95-06-15 19:23:48 EDT On the SF-LIT listserv, you asked: > Is there such thing as "Secret Government Files", like the TV program, "The > X-Files". Not according to the United States Government. > And what about the so-called Sceret Files from the KGB that discuss > UFO and alien encounters. According to "Encounters" and other tabloid television shows, they exist - according to the KGB, they don't. > Does any one have anything to comment about this or is this all Sci-Fi for > the Tabloids. What exactly does this have to do with Science Fiction Literature? Asimov, Bester, Silverberg - *written* SF - is what is usually discussed in this group - Perhaps you want the X-Files discussion group, alt.tv.x-files ? From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 16 12:47:14 1995 Received: from panix.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA32519; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 12:47:14 -0400 Received: (from adridge@localhost) by panix.com (8.6.12/8.6.12+PanixU1.1) id MAA24006; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 12:47:12 -0400 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 12:47:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Austin Dridge <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: DEATH IN SF FAMILY (fwd) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 16 Jun 1995, Colleen Stumbaugh wrote: > A sad day for all science fiction fans. > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: 16 Jun 1995 07:20:07 EST > From: CHRISTINE T CALLAHAN <[log in to unmask]> > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: DEATH IN SF FAMILY > > ------------------------------------ > AUTHOR: CHRISTINE T CALLAHAN > ------------------------------------ > Washington Post, Fri. morning: Roger Zelazny died June 16th of > complications from cancer. > > > Here are some additional details. Zelazny died last night of from liver malfunction which was the result of colin cancer. He apparently did not tell anyone that he had cancer except for a few close friends and family. The condition had been in remission until recently. Austin [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 16 12:57:40 1995 Received: from raven.benedictine.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA09453; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 12:57:40 -0400 Received: from gnicholas.benedictine.edu by raven.benedictine.edu with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA24716; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 12:01:59 -0500 Message-Id: <v01510100ac07664c0fea@[198.248.38.28]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 11:59:25 -0500 To: [log in to unmask] From: [log in to unmask] (George Nicholas) Subject: X- files and government conspiricies You know, I dont for a moment believe that things like the Roswell Alien are real. And it's true, as Colleen says, that the U. S. government probably couldn't keep a secret of that magnitude. Look at the splendid job the executive branch once did of hiding its participation in a second-class burglary at the Watergate. But just for a little paranoid fun, look at it this way. Imagine that the government *hasn't* kept the secret of the Roswell Alien very well. After all, here we are discussing it. Perhaps "they" are counting on the fact that this secret falls into a sort of self-limiting category. It's so unbelievable that, even if it gets out, few people will take it seriously. Thus security is preserved by the very outrageousness of the subject. The Roswell Alien is hidden in plain sight, so to speak. George E. Nicholas [log in to unmask] English Department (913)367-5340 xt. 2572 Benedictine College Atchison KS 66002 From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 16 14:23:10 1995 Received: from gate.bmgmusic.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA37798; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 14:23:10 -0400 Received: from in1vines.bmgmusic.com by gate.bmgmusic.com with SMTP id AA17090 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for <[log in to unmask]>); Fri, 16 Jun 1995 13:15:01 -0500 Received: by IN1VINES.bmgmusic.com; Fri, 16 Jun 95 14:18:09 EDT Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 14:08:03 EDT Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Terraforming Someone (my mail system is steam-powered and doesn't allow editing of other's messages for convenient quotation) asked about the word terraforming, and, from the subject line, I think it was in reference to Stan Robinson's "Mars" books. The 'terra' in terraforming doesn't refer to planet earth as the medium to be formed. What I mean is: it's not terraforming as in forming the earth, it's terraforming as in forming another planet to be _like_ the earth. General planetary changes are called planoforming. Terraforming is a specific type of planoforming in which one is trying to create an Earth-like atmosphere (etc.) where one did not exist before. BTW, to impress your friends, the opposite of terraforming is xenoforming, which is the alteration of the earth to fit the needs of an alien species. The best example of it I've found is in David Gerrold's "The War With the Chtorr" series (which has some nice stuff buried in a post-Heinlein kill-the-invading-bugs plotline). But Martian geology is still rightly called areology, since 'geo' refers specifically to the structures of earth. As an aside, does anyone know a word for extra-planetary geology in general? Andy Wheeler From cstu Fri Jun 16 14:51:16 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA81133; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 14:51:16 -0400 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 14:51:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Terraforming In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 16 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: --Snip__ > needs of an alien species. The best example of it I've found is in David > Gerrold's "The War With the Chtorr" series (which has some nice stuff buried > in a post-Heinlein kill-the-invading-bugs plotline). I love it! As a librarian, I tend to catagorize books, and now I have a new genre area. There is fantasy (high or low) and science fiction (hard, soft, and post-Heinlien-kill-the-invading-bugs). Actually, I think this has come up before, but is there a list of the types of fantasy/horror/science fiction? This would be very useful to bibiliographies and us poor librarians. I am thinking along the lines of a thesarus; if it does not exist, is anyone interested in helping me create one? Colleen _________________________________________________________________________ Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian [log in to unmask] Library of Congress (202) 707-4132 Washington, DC 20540-4861 FAX: (202) 707-4142 These opinions are mine, Mine MINE! __________________________________________________________________________ From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 16 15:55:42 1995 Received: from mail.jal.cc.il.us by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA33566; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 15:55:42 -0400 Received: from PORT18.AIXDIALIN.SIU.EDU (PORT18.AIXDIALIN.SIU.EDU [131.230.253.18]) by mail.jal.cc.il.us (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA13154 for <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 14:56:01 -0500 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 14:56:01 -0500 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: [log in to unmask] X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: [log in to unmask] From: [log in to unmask] (Ed McKnight) Subject: Re: Terraforming Richard Scott asked why the word "terraforming" was used in Kim Stanley Robinson's Red/Green Mars while the prefix "areo" was used with sciences and "marsquakes" was used instead of "earthquakes." My best guess is that the "terra" in "terraforming" derives from the object being simulated rather than the object upon which the work is performed. In other words, "terraforming" is the process of transforming a planet into a "terrestrial" one. By this logic you could "terraform" any suitable planet except earth itself! Ed McKnight -- [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 16 17:25:35 1995 Received: from relay1.geis.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA20508; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 17:25:35 -0400 Received: by relay1.geis.com (1.37.109.11/15.6) id AA208477930; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 21:25:31 GMT From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 20:29:00 UTC To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Roger Zelazny X-Genie-Id: 4254059 X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2 I've been meaning to post some thoughts about how well the Cleveland Indians are doing this season, but today I'm not in the mood. Instead, I'll upload the following, which I was asked to write for this weekend's New Orleans Fantasy and Science Fiction Festival. One of the things I don't like about getting older is saying a final goodbye to so many of my friends. Roger Zelazny was more than a friend, not only to me but to many of my colleagues and others who read and enjoyed his writing over the years. I first met Roger early in my career. I had admired his work ever since I read LORD OF LIGHT, CREATURES OF LIGHT AND DARKNESS, and ISLE OF THE DEAD. He was a master of short fiction, too, winning nominations and awards for "And Call Me Conrad" and "A Rose for Ecclesiastes", among others. He was one of the few writers who could move easily between science fiction and fantasy, and create superbly in either area. He was a consummate prose stylist, and he never failed to be entertaining at the same time that he wrote on deeper levels. Roger was always generous with his time, always willing to give the benefit of his experience to new writers. He was a charming and gracious man who could be a model for other professionals in how to behave toward fans. He was quiet, but now and then he could startle you with a devastating sense of humor. It is almost a cliche to say of someone who's passed on that they can't be replaced, but this is certainly true in the case of Roger Zelazny. I can't think of anyone at all who could match his particular voice, his unique imagination. Roger was, I believe, NOSFFF's third Guest of Honor, when the convention was back at the old Bayou Plaza. I recall Debbie and I sharing a wonderful dinner with him at Antoine's. I remember other Zelazny stories and anecdotes, but I can't help feeling that they are too few. Just as the number of novels and stories Roger left with us are too few. Michael Kube-McDowell wrote a brief obituary that was posted on CompuServe. He ended the message with the words "Ad Astra," which were ironic in a way, as Roger was to be Guest of Honor at Ad Astra in Toronto this very weekend. How immediately he has shown himself to be irreplaceable. Roger was from Euclid, Ohio, walking distance from the house I grew up in. I didn't know him then, of course, but we laughed often about our common Cleveland background. Roger told me a funny story once about visiting Harlan Ellison's old neighborhood, and talking to the people who remembered Harlan as a boy. I think the delight Roger took in telling that tale is how I'll remember him. I miss him already. From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 16 21:00:17 1995 Received: from UICVM-ETH1.CC.UIC.EDU by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA69666; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 21:00:17 -0400 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Received: from UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU by UICVM.UIC.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8609; Fri, 16 Jun 95 15:03:14 CDT Received: from UICVM (NJE origin U28884@UICVM) by UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4444; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 15:03:13 -0500 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 14:57:45 CDT From: Laura Doyle <[log in to unmask]> Organization: UIC Library of the Health Sciences Subject: SF thesaurus; formerly RE: terraforming To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Cc: Chris Shaffer <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 16 Jun 1995 15:01:00 -0400 from <[log in to unmask]> Wonderful! Colleen, I was talking with a colleague just two weeks ago about trying to do a thesaurus. We got as far as checking to see if one had been done. The only thing we could find that was published independently was Michael Burgess' A GUIDE TO SCIENCE FICTION & FANTASY IN THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS CLASSIFICATION SCHEME (published as part of the Borgo Reference Library, Volume VIII, ISSN 0270-3653), August 1994. My colleague suspects that some of the ongoing series that index sf (such as Greenwood's series) must surely have some kind of thesaurus they use but we haven't checked yet. I would very definitely be interested in doing one, and I suspect he would also be interested in working on one. If you like, I have started a "baby thesaurus" specifically for my feminist sff-utopia pages at http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/sf/femsf.thesaurus . If you are really interested in working on this, let's take the discussion off the list so we don't bore non-librarians. On Fri, 16 Jun 1995 15:01:00 -0400 Colleen Stumbaugh said: >I love it! As a librarian, I tend to catagorize books, and now I have a >new genre area. There is fantasy (high or low) and science fiction >(hard, soft, and post-Heinlien-kill-the-invading-bugs). Actually, I >think this has come up before, but is there a list of the types of >fantasy/horror/science fiction? This would be very useful to >bibiliographies and us poor librarians. I am thinking along the lines of >a thesarus; if it does not exist, is anyone interested in helping me >create one? > >Colleen >_________________________________________________________________________ >Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian [log in to unmask] >Library of Congress (202) 707-4132 >Washington, DC 20540-4861 FAX: (202) 707-4142 >These opinions are mine, Mine MINE! >__________________________________________________________________________ > > Laura M. Doyle / [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask] "You don't call, you don't write, you don't send me flowers. You only forward email. Sigh." -- Beth Braswell, personal email, 2/21/95 From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 16 21:19:30 1995 Received: from bob.indirect.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA55612; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 21:19:30 -0400 Received: from bud.indirect.com ([log in to unmask] [165.247.1.10]) by bob.indirect.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA20602 for <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 11:40:23 -0700 Received: from slip237.indirect.com (slip237.indirect.com [165.247.1.237]) by bud.indirect.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id SAA07650 for <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 18:19:44 -0700 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Comments: Authenticated sender is <[log in to unmask]> From: "Raphael Carter" <[log in to unmask]> Organization: Black swan fallacy illustrated To: [log in to unmask] Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 18:10:19 -0700 Subject: "seminal" Reply-To: [log in to unmask] Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) > Feminine of seminal is ovulal? "Oval." Nevertheless, the metaphor in "seminal" makes sense. Seed (or semen), like a seminal work of art, can be widely dispersed and have an influence over a large area; eggs can't. Think of pollen, especially. I'm a conscientious "sie" user, but I can't see any good reason to get rid of the word "seminal." I will, however, readily advocate "pollinic" for works of art that have a wide influence but also irritate a lot of people. You know, like _Dhalgren_ or _Ulysses_. -- [log in to unmask] http://www.indirect.com/www/raphael/ From cstu Sat Jun 17 12:51:12 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA81862; Sat, 17 Jun 1995 12:51:12 -0400 Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 12:51:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: SF Thesaurus: formerly RE: Terraforming (fwd) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 14:57:45 CDT From: Laura Doyle <[log in to unmask]> Subject: SF thesaurus; formerly RE: terraforming Wonderful! Colleen, I was talking with a colleague just two weeks ago about trying to do a thesaurus. We got as far as checking to see if one had been done. The only thing we could find that was published independently was Michael Burgess' A GUIDE TO SCIENCE FICTION & FANTASY IN THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS CLASSIFICATION SCHEME (published as part of the Borgo Reference Library, Volume VIII, ISSN 0270-3653), August 1994. My colleague suspects that some of the ongoing series that index sf (such as Greenwood's series) must surely have some kind of thesaurus they use but we haven't checked yet. I would very definitely be interested in doing one, and I suspect he would also be interested in working on one. If you like, I have started a "baby thesaurus" specifically for my feminist sff-utopia pages at http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/sf/femsf.thesaurus . If you are really interested in working on this, let's take the discussion off the list so we don't bore non-librarians. On Fri, 16 Jun 1995 15:01:00 -0400 Colleen Stumbaugh said: >I love it! As a librarian, I tend to catagorize books, and now I have a >new genre area. There is fantasy (high or low) and science fiction >(hard, soft, and post-Heinlien-kill-the-invading-bugs). Actually, I >think this has come up before, but is there a list of the types of >fantasy/horror/science fiction? This would be very useful to >bibiliographies and us poor librarians. I am thinking along the lines of >a thesarus; if it does not exist, is anyone interested in helping me >create one? > >Colleen >_________________________________________________________________________ >Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian [log in to unmask] >Library of Congress (202) 707-4132 >Washington, DC 20540-4861 FAX: (202) 707-4142 >These opinions are mine, Mine MINE! >__________________________________________________________________________ > > Laura M. Doyle / [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask] "You don't call, you don't write, you don't send me flowers. You only forward email. Sigh." -- Beth Braswell, personal email, 2/21/95 From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 16 21:30:48 1995 Received: from bob.indirect.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA42830; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 21:30:48 -0400 Received: from bud.indirect.com ([log in to unmask] [165.247.1.10]) by bob.indirect.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA20718 for <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 11:51:40 -0700 Received: from slip237.indirect.com (slip237.indirect.com [165.247.1.237]) by bud.indirect.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id SAA08704 for <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 18:31:01 -0700 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Comments: Authenticated sender is <[log in to unmask]> From: "Raphael Carter" <[log in to unmask]> Organization: Black swan fallacy illustrated To: [log in to unmask] Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 18:31:39 -0700 Subject: Re: From Sandra Kisner: Aliens and Linguists Reply-To: [log in to unmask] Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) I don't think my previous message on this subject got through, so: those who liked the ST:TNG episode "Darmok" might want to look at my _Darmok Dictionary_, available from my home page (see URL in my signature). _Aliens and Linguists_ is pretty good, though Meyers seems to miss the joke in his analyses of some works. -- [log in to unmask] http://www.indirect.com/www/raphael/ From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 16 22:47:09 1995 Received: from indst.indstate.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA32095; Fri, 16 Jun 1995 22:47:09 -0400 Received: from root.indstate.edu by INDST.INDSTATE.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 16 Jun 95 21:48:29 EST Received: from ROOT/MERCURY by root.indstate.edu (Mercury 1.20); 16 Jun 95 21:46:41 GMT-5 Received: from MERCURY by ROOT (Mercury 1.20); 16 Jun 95 21:46:17 GMT-5 From: "EJUSERS" <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 21:46:11 EST Subject: Re: Types of sf/fantasy Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> There are a number of typologies of f&sf. Perhpas the most recent ambitious attempt is Carl Malmgren's WORLDS APART, of which there is a lengthy review in SCEINCE-FICTION STUDIES #56, mARCH 1992, by David Ketterer. --R.D. Mullen <[log in to unmask]> From cstu Sat Jun 17 13:21:00 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA59721; Sat, 17 Jun 1995 13:21:00 -0400 Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 13:21:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Types of sf/fantasy Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: "EJUSERS" <[log in to unmask]> Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 21:46:11 EST Subject: Re: Types of sf/fantasy There are a number of typologies of f&sf. Perhpas the most recent ambitious attempt is Carl Malmgren's WORLDS APART, of which there is a lengthy review in SCEINCE-FICTION STUDIES #56, mARCH 1992, by David Ketterer. --R.D. Mullen <[log in to unmask]> From [log in to unmask] Sat Jun 17 02:04:24 1995 Received: from caerlas.demon.co.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA63965; Sat, 17 Jun 1995 02:04:24 -0400 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 22:39:02 GMT From: [log in to unmask] (Patricia Reynolds) Reply-To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: kill-the-bugs (was 'terraforming') X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Lines: 36 Dear Colleen (and others interested in a thesaurus) Count me in - especially on the fantasy side. Not a librarian, but in a profession with a meaningful relationship with categories (currently developing Dahl interactives at Buckinghamshire County Museum, but don't let that put you off!) In message <[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask] writes: > > On Fri, 16 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > --Snip__ > > needs of an alien species. The best example of it I've found is in David > > Gerrold's "The War With the Chtorr" series (which has some nice stuff buried > > in a post-Heinlein kill-the-invading-bugs plotline). > > I love it! As a librarian, I tend to catagorize books, and now I have a > new genre area. There is fantasy (high or low) and science fiction > (hard, soft, and post-Heinlien-kill-the-invading-bugs). Actually, I > think this has come up before, but is there a list of the types of > fantasy/horror/science fiction? This would be very useful to > bibiliographies and us poor librarians. I am thinking along the lines of > a thesarus; if it does not exist, is anyone interested in helping me > create one? > > Colleen > _________________________________________________________________________ > Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian [log in to unmask] > Library of Congress (202) 707-4132 > Washington, DC 20540-4861 FAX: (202) 707-4142 > These opinions are mine, Mine MINE! > __________________________________________________________________________ > -- Patricia Reynolds [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Sat Jun 17 12:48:12 1995 Received: from panix.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA27465; Sat, 17 Jun 1995 12:48:12 -0400 Received: (from hlavaty@localhost) by panix.com (8.6.12/8.6.12+PanixU1.1) id MAA26746; Sat, 17 Jun 1995 12:48:10 -0400 Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 12:48:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Arthur Hlavaty <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Roger Zelazny In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, George, you now have a whole bunch of people waiting for you to tell Zelazny's Ellison story.... Arthur D. Hlavaty [log in to unmask] Church of the SuperGenius In Wile E. We Trust From cstu Sat Jun 17 13:46:56 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA41298; Sat, 17 Jun 1995 13:46:56 -0400 Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 13:46:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Julian May question Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The following is quoted from _Jack the Bodiless_, p. 257 (Knopf, 1992): "'That,' said Concordance with a sigh, 'is Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, the invention of a minor American writer named Robert May. The Infinite only knows why the beast has become firmly ensconced as part of the Christmas myth. One would not dream of boring one's fellow entities with the bathetic fable of Rudolph, which is basically a distortion of the Ugly Duckling motif. Let it suffice to say that human children's fondness for Rudolph indicates an inherent darkness in their psyches." Here is the question: Is the above mentioned Robert May (yes, he did write the poem) a relative of Julian May's, and if so, in what way? She certainly does not like the poem, but then if you grew up knowing your father/uncle/cousin wrote it, I guess you might feel that way. Colleen _________________________________________________________________________ Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian [log in to unmask] Library of Congress (202) 707-4132 Washington, DC 20540-4861 FAX: (202) 707-4142 These opinions are mine, Mine MINE! __________________________________________________________________________ From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 18 04:53:21 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA48320; Sun, 18 Jun 1995 04:53:21 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA24957; Sun, 18 Jun 1995 03:53:05 -0500 Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 03:53:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: On-Line SF&F Lit. In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950618035205.25828K-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII [log in to unmask] sf-list fantasy night-l Put subscribe in front of these, and your name after them. Usual deal. Listowner is Morgan Bottrell. She adds you manually, from memory, after you send the commands. This may have changed. AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place On Thu, 15 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > Greetings all, > I am trying to put together an Internet SF&F Literature guide. This would > include Web pages, E-Zines, Newsgroups such as this, etc... I would > appreciate input from anyone who might subscribe, or browsed such places > on the net. It must be SF&F driven, if not excusively, then at least in > majority. When I have a suitable list, which means I have to confirm the > existence, I will submit this to the SF&F Writer's Workshop, of which I am > member. Thanks in advance. > > > Later, > > Robert D. Bair > IBM Charlotte RDBAIR at CLTVM1 > CSP Test Engineering Support > [log in to unmask] > AR: WB3AHC, 1st Class FCC: P1-3-17298, Tripoli: #2253, NAR: #60163 > From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 18 08:59:55 1995 Received: from tripath.colosys.net by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA53521; Sun, 18 Jun 1995 08:59:55 -0400 Received: by tripath.colosys.net; (5.65/1.1.8.2/28Apr95-0930AM) id AA25659; Sun, 18 Jun 1995 07:04:21 -0600 Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 07:04:20 -0600 (MDT) From: Holly Koelling <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: SF Thesaurus: formerly RE: Terraforming (fwd) To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Concerning the SF thesaurus idea - as a Head Librarian of a Popular Materials Center where reader's advisory is frequent and patrons are demanding(!), I would be very interested in following this. Although helpful, the general reader's advisory resources in SF don't really include the depth of topical and subtopical categories to assist patrons in unearthing specific sf interests from our collection or through an inter-library loan subject-search process. I am also in the process of beginning what our library calls a "bookmark bibliography" for books on sentient earth creatures in space. David Brin comes to mind, but we're stymied otherwise right now. Any suggestions? Holly Koelling Head Librarian, Popular Materials Mesa County Public Library District Grand Junction, CO From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 18 09:16:41 1995 Received: from kendaco.telebyte.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA21129; Sun, 18 Jun 1995 09:16:41 -0400 Received: from 204.57.174.54 (warden.telebyte.com [204.57.174.54]) by kendaco.telebyte.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA27528; Sun, 18 Jun 1995 06:16:13 -0700 Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 06:16:13 -0700 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Book Sales To: [log in to unmask] Cc: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask] X-Mailer: AIR Mail 3.X (SPRY, Inc.) Is there a source of book sales per novel? I would like to do some research on what sells in SF. I am interested to discover which novels of SF have sold the most. If there is a pattern of theme, content, character, plot and etc; then I would like to test the data. If there are correlations, such as Space Opera sell more, then I would be happy to share with group. Not being a librarian, but a finance person, I need some help to find sales per novel. Any suggestions? Joe de Beauchamp Seattle, Washington [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 18 13:44:38 1995 Received: from odin.cc.pdx.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA18882; Sun, 18 Jun 1995 13:44:38 -0400 Received: (from bvmi@localhost) by odin.cc.pdx.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9MEP040594) id KAA26708 for [log in to unmask]; Sun, 18 Jun 1995 10:44:34 -0700 From: Michael Bowman <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: SF classification To: [log in to unmask] Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 10:44:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 3064 Alastair Cameron published a Dewey Decimal-like Fantasy Classification System in 1952. It covered science fiction, fantasy and horror. It was republished and updated in Issue no. 8 (Winter 1989) of _The Whole Science Fiction Data Base Quarterly_. I found it quite interesting. An outline follows: 00 Aberrations 01 Subjective horror 02 Subjective escapism 04 Objective horror 06 Mass hallucinations 08 Chain of circumstances perhaps not accidental 10 Supernatural beings 11 Beings whose powers are vaguely defined 12 Monsters 13 Gods and demons 15 Fairy tale creatures and nature spirits 16 Life after death 17 Personifications and deifications 18 Famous fictional fantastic characters 19 Folk heroes 20 Extrapolations on Life and Mind 21 Interchanges and impositions of will on another 22 Mental and sensory powers 23 Mutated and transformed life 25 Extension of life 26 Mechanical life forms 28 Unintelligent extraterrestrial life 29 Intelligent extraterrestrial life 30 Extrapolations on Living 31 Other types of society 32 Utopias and anti-utopias 33 Religious practices 34 Types of government 35 Attempts at domination of the world 36 Conditions of expanding culture 37 Conditions of catastrophe and upheaval 38 Conditions of cultural decay 39 Sole survivors 40 Supernatural Places and Things 41 Worlds out of space and time 42 Lands based on pseudo-mythology 43 Old mythological lands 44 Heaven and hell 45 Taboo places 46 Haunted places and things 47 Mysteries of the sea 48 Things with supernatural properties 50 Extrapolations on Space 51 Extrapolations on geography 52-3 Solar System 54 Space 55 Extrasolar 56 Astronomical phenomena 58 Size 59 Dimension 60 Extrapolations on Technology 61 Gadgets 62 Engineering developments 63 Transportation 64 Weapons 65 New Scientific principles 66 Changes in the properties of materials 67 Communications 68 Biological engineering 69 Computing 70 The Past 71 Cosmic origins 72 Pre-human life 73 Early man 74 Nonhuman terrestrial civilizations 76 Extraterrestrial civilizations on Earth 78 Legendary civilizations 79 Early historical civilizations 80 Extrapolations on Time 81 Supernatural temporal variations 82 Variations in the rate of time flow 83 Time travel: action in past or present: divergent possibilities unimportant 84 Time travel: action in future: divergent possibilites unimportant 85 Variations on temporal sequence 86 Past and present of multiple possibilities 87 Future of multiple possibilities 88 Mixing of subjectively contemporary persons & events: sideways 89 Unmixed alternatives 90 Supernatural, Unrationalized and Distorted Powers and Themes 91 Subjective conceptualiztion of the world 92 Magic and sorcery 93 Curses 94 Pseudoscientific arts 95 Unrationalized powers 99 Intentional distortions of contemporary science Michael Bowman [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 18 22:01:35 1995 Received: from condor.CC.UMontreal.CA by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA29030; Sun, 18 Jun 1995 22:01:35 -0400 Received: from eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA (eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA [132.204.10.20]) by condor.CC.UMontreal.CA with ESMTP id WAA16145 (8.6.11/IDA-1.6 for <[log in to unmask]>); Sun, 18 Jun 1995 22:00:49 -0400 Received: by eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA (950221.405.SGI.8.6.10/5.17) id WAA17636; Sun, 18 Jun 1995 22:00:47 -0400 Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 22:00:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Terraforming and Thesaurus hunting To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII No, the Thesaurus is not Cretaceous beast hunted for sport. On Fri, 16 Jun 1995, Colleen Stumbaugh wrote: > > needs of an alien species. The best example of it I've found is in David > > Gerrold's "The War With the Chtorr" series (which has some nice stuff buried > > in a post-Heinlein kill-the-invading-bugs plotline). > > I love it! As a librarian, I tend to catagorize books, and now I have a > new genre area. There is fantasy (high or low) and science fiction > (hard, soft, and post-Heinlien-kill-the-invading-bugs). Actually, I > think this has come up before, but is there a list of the types of > fantasy/horror/science fiction? This would be very useful to > bibiliographies and us poor librarians. I am thinking along the lines of > a thesarus; if it does not exist, is anyone interested in helping me > create one? > > Colleen Have you ever seen the "family tree" of science fiction types that was printed in _The _National_Lampoon_ around 1971? It was meant as a joke on the predictability of SF plots, but it was incredibly thorough. In a single drawing on a single page you could categorize absolutely any SF plot by following the lines. For a librarian like me who is sometimes lost in LC subject headings, I was entranced by the simplicity, the ease of dewscription attained there. Au revoir! DE: Alain Vaillancourt [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 18 22:32:39 1995 Received: from condor.CC.UMontreal.CA by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA36278; Sun, 18 Jun 1995 22:32:39 -0400 Received: from eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA (eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA [132.204.10.20]) by condor.CC.UMontreal.CA with ESMTP id WAA16454 (8.6.11/IDA-1.6 for <[log in to unmask]>); Sun, 18 Jun 1995 22:31:52 -0400 Received: by eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA (950221.405.SGI.8.6.10/5.17) id WAA20961; Sun, 18 Jun 1995 22:31:51 -0400 Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 22:31:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: From Eric A. Johnson: RE: Libraries and SF Collections To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Arthur Hlavaty wrote: > When I was in library school, I was most interested to learn that neither > Dewey decimal nor Library of Congress distinguishes between "mainstream" > and "category" fiction. Could there be a lesson in that? > > Arthur D. Hlavaty [log in to unmask] > Church of the SuperGenius In Wile E. We Trust But what about everything that gets dumped in PZ3 or around there? And what about the possibility for a twisted mind (note that it was like this before I did my two year Master's in Library Science) to use the flexibility of the Dewey system to categorize fiction. In my library (classifed with both Dewey and LC) Science fiction ends up in 398.4, since I consider it as an outgrowth of myths and tales. Au revoir! DE: Alain Vaillancourt [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 19 03:01:55 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA61239; Mon, 19 Jun 1995 03:01:55 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 19 Jun 1995 08:01:47 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 19 Jun 95 08:01:45 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: Fwd: Please advise Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 08:00:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 25 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 >> Is there such thing as "Secret Government Files", like the TV program, "The >> X-Files". [...] >What exactly does this have to do with Science Fiction Literature? >Asimov, Bester, Silverberg - *written* SF - is what is usually discussed >in this group - Perhaps you want the X-Files discussion group, >alt.tv.x-files ? This seems harsh, not to mention patronising. I thought what distinguished this list from others was its primarily "literary" bent - and it would seem counterproductive then to say that only SOME carefully-written stuff was eligible for consideration. Of course I presume you'd allow SF plays into the arena - until they were actually performed of course, in which case we'd have to drop them hurriedly. What about radio, film and TV adaptations of things? Gosh, what a difficult one.... Still, as long as it was actually written FOR one of these media then we're quite clear that it was never really "written" at all so we just needn't worry about it... Dave From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 19 04:04:39 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA76265; Mon, 19 Jun 1995 04:04:39 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 19 Jun 1995 09:04:35 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 19 Jun 95 09:04:33 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: SF-LIT list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Written/other media thing - again... Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 09:03:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 11 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 I've just realised that the message I chose to jump on was originally intended privately (I'm at work very early indeed and things are taking me a while...), which makes my rather waspish response somewhat out of place in itself. Apologies for that. All the same, now that it's out there, I really am interested in what people think of the "validity" or whatever of stuff that was not written entirely and exclusively for print (never mind the fact that you can't guarantee it'll stay there even if that is where you first put it...). Dave From cstu Mon Jun 19 07:19:20 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA60953; Mon, 19 Jun 1995 07:19:20 -0400 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 07:19:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: Fwd: Please advise In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 19 Jun 1995, D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple wrote: --Snip__ > > I thought what distinguished this list from others was its primarily > "literary" bent - and it would seem counterproductive then to say that only > SOME carefully-written stuff was eligible for consideration. Of course I > presume you'd allow SF plays into the arena - until they were actually > performed of course, in which case we'd have to drop them hurriedly. What > about radio, film and TV adaptations of things? Gosh, what a difficult > one.... Still, as long as it was actually written FOR one of these media > then we're quite clear that it was never really "written" at all so we just > needn't worry about it... > > Dave > Actually, this forum allows for discussion of all media, as the annoucement says: SF-LIT is a moderated computer forum open to anyone interested in discussing issues related to the literary side of Science Fiction & Fantasy in all its various media forms. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The use of the term literary is a bit misleading; any topic about science fiction, fantasy or horror that is dealt with in a research, academic or study manner is fair game for this list ("Break out the guns, boys, we're a goin' hunting!") As moderator, I tend to interpert this boardly. Using the posting about X-files as an example, the question could be: Is X-files intended to be portraying the real world or fiction? How much of the X-files is fiction? What is the creator's intend? Even if the questions are not phrased this way, the topics are still there. Sometimes the postings seem a bit off for the list, but I figure anything can turn into a research question. I hope this clears up any problems on what is allowed on SF-LIT. Colleen Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 19 04:55:28 1995 Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA58072; Mon, 19 Jun 1995 04:55:28 -0400 Received: from uxa.liv.ac.uk by mail.liv.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 19 Jun 1995 09:55:06 +0100 From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: SF Thesaurus: formerly RE: Terraforming (fwd) To: [log in to unmask] Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 09:55:01 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Colleen Stumbaugh" at Jun 17, 95 12:58:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1734 In the last mail Colleen Stumbaugh said: > > Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 14:57:45 CDT > From: Laura Doyle <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: SF thesaurus; formerly RE: terraforming > I think this would be a good idea. It's been done in practice (ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SCIENCE FICTION) etc. but it would be nice to think that we could extend what people have often done on a fairly ad-hoc basis. Count me in. > > On Fri, 16 Jun 1995 15:01:00 -0400 Colleen Stumbaugh said: > >I love it! As a librarian, I tend to catagorize books, and now I have a > >new genre area. There is fantasy (high or low) and science fiction > >(hard, soft, and post-Heinlien-kill-the-invading-bugs). Actually, I > >think this has come up before, but is there a list of the types of > >fantasy/horror/science fiction? This would be very useful to > >bibiliographies and us poor librarians. I am thinking along the lines of > >a thesarus; if it does not exist, is anyone interested in helping me > >create one? > > > >Colleen > >_________________________________________________________________________ > >Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian [log in to unmask] > >Library of Congress (202) 707-4132 > >Washington, DC 20540-4861 FAX: (202) 707-4142 > >These opinions are mine, Mine MINE! > >__________________________________________________________________________ -- Andy Sawyer, Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK 0151-794-2733/2696 [log in to unmask] http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html "Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 19 04:58:59 1995 Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA76260; Mon, 19 Jun 1995 04:58:59 -0400 Received: from uxa.liv.ac.uk by mail.liv.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 19 Jun 1995 09:58:42 +0100 From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Dahl interactives To: [log in to unmask] Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 09:58:40 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Patricia Reynolds" at Jun 17, 95 01:31:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 830 In the last mail Patricia Reynolds said: > > Dear Colleen (and others interested in a thesaurus) > > Count me in - especially on the fantasy side. Not a librarian, > but in a profession with a meaningful relationship with categories > (currently developing Dahl interactives at Buckinghamshire > County Museum, but don't let that put you off!) > Tell me more: Interactive Dahl sound wonderfully disgusting -- Andy Sawyer, (who used to be a children's librarian and can still recite large chunks of the "Revolting Rhymes") Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK 0151-794-2733/2696 [log in to unmask] http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html "Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 19 06:36:37 1995 Received: from [193.116.1.4] by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA37814; Mon, 19 Jun 1995 06:36:37 -0400 Return-Path: [log in to unmask] Received: from squidgy.sni.co.uk (squidgy.sni.co.uk [137.223.5.110]) by innergate.sni.co.uk (8.6.11/8.6.6) with SMTP id KAA03800 for <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 19 Jun 1995 10:35:39 GMT Received: by squidgy.sni.co.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 19 Jun 95 11:40:29 UTC From: Mark Woolrich <[log in to unmask]> To: "sf-lit%loc.gov" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: SCI_FI / Science Fiction Monthly Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 11:31:00 UTC Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 17 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 This weekend I spent a little time sorting through boxes of old NEL SF paperbacks, (looking for my Roger Zelanzy ones), and came across something relevent to our discussion a while back about SF vs Sci-Fi. In the back of one of the books was an advert for an up and coming new magazine called Science Fiction Monthly. It was nice to be reminded of that publication again, and next weekend I'll try to put some time aside to dig out my precious copies, but to get to the point there was some small print under the subscription form which said that the mag had originaly been advertised as SCI-FI but that the publishers had changed it to Science Fiction Monthly and apologised for any confusion. So, it seems at least possible that, back in 73, the publishers were made aware of the negative effect their original choice might have had on their intended target market and so changed it. markw - who used to annoy the hell ot of his newsagent asking if his SFM had come in yet. From cstu Mon Jun 19 07:42:05 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA73110; Mon, 19 Jun 1995 07:42:05 -0400 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 07:42:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: SCI_FI / Science Fiction Monthly (fwd) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Mark Woolrich <[log in to unmask]> Subject: SCI_FI / Science Fiction Monthly Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 11:31:00 UTC This weekend I spent a little time sorting through boxes of old NEL SF paperbacks, (looking for my Roger Zelanzy ones), and came across something relevent to our discussion a while back about SF vs Sci-Fi. In the back of one of the books was an advert for an up and coming new magazine called Science Fiction Monthly. It was nice to be reminded of that publication again, and next weekend I'll try to put some time aside to dig out my precious copies, but to get to the point there was some small print under the subscription form which said that the mag had originaly been advertised as SCI-FI but that the publishers had changed it to Science Fiction Monthly and apologised for any confusion. So, it seems at least possible that, back in 73, the publishers were made aware of the negative effect their original choice might have had on their intended target market and so changed it. markw - who used to annoy the hell ot of his newsagent asking if his SFM had come in yet. From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 19 09:05:41 1995 Received: from gate.bmgmusic.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA69778; Mon, 19 Jun 1995 09:05:41 -0400 Received: from in1vines.bmgmusic.com by gate.bmgmusic.com with SMTP id AA09564 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for <[log in to unmask]>); Mon, 19 Jun 1995 08:04:59 -0500 Received: by IN1VINES.bmgmusic.com; Mon, 19 Jun 95 9:09:12 EDT Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 16:27:17 EDT Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] Cc: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: classifications Here's some sub-categories for your proposed list, off the top of my head: Fantasy High (aka Epic) Humorous Contemporary Mannerist Invented World (as opposed to our real world) Historical Arthurian Allegorical SF Hard Soft Cyberpunk Alternate History Near-, Medium- or Far-Future (pick one) Humorous Utopian Dystopian "If This Goes On..." or Predictive Post-Holocaust Science Fantasy Incomprehensible (aka New Wave) Allegorical First Contact Space Opera Baroque (e.g., Jack Vance) Apocalyptic But, of course, a SF/Fantasy work can often fit into several categories at once. And standard 'literary' categories (e.g., bildungsroman, which is even more common in SF than it is in 'regular' literature) often also apply. To be completely comprehensive (and I'm not offering to do this myself, just throwing out the suggestion to the professional librarians out there), what would be needed is a list of motifs, like those used to categorize folklore. And, since I inadvertently started this thread, I'll add that I meant 'post- Heinlein' as a serious description and 'kill-the-invading-bugs' as a more tongue in cheek (I was trying to evoke all those mediocre giant-bug movies) adjective. Though, in a motif index, alien invader would definitely be included, with major subheadings for lizard and bug aliens (as the favored types of invaders). And a yet further subdivision would be between violent chitinous aliens (the Gerrold books) or chitinous aliens who invade for a peaceful purpose (as in Clarke's _Childhood's End_). Andy Wheeler From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 19 13:01:05 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA74845; Mon, 19 Jun 1995 13:01:05 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA07543; Mon, 19 Jun 1995 12:00:48 -0500 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 12:01:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Well, look at Neil Gaiman and what theRe: Written/other media thing , - again... In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950619115840.6695B-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, Neil Gaiman was shafted for an award after he won it a couple of times and they changed it so that 'only novels' could win, or something. Extremely stupid, IMO. Things will change, so why be that limiting? (except of course they were displaying human jealousy :) ) If it has to be 'written' then perhaps they should ban books written on word processsors, or typewriters, as they are both-machine-assisted. AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place On Mon, 19 Jun 1995, D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple wrote: > > I've just realised that the message I chose to jump on was originally > intended privately (I'm at work very early indeed and things are taking me a > while...), which makes my rather waspish response somewhat out of place in > itself. Apologies for that. All the same, now that it's out there, I > really am interested in what people think of the "validity" or whatever of > stuff that was not written entirely and exclusively for print (never mind > the fact that you can't guarantee it'll stay there even if that is where you > first put it...). > > Dave > From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 19 16:02:18 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA55482; Mon, 19 Jun 1995 16:02:18 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA249452137; Mon, 19 Jun 1995 16:02:17 -0400 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 16:02:17 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Call for submissions Am editing a work (Echoes from Valis), which relates to the 52 tractates in the Appendix to VALIS. Send mailing address for formal prospectus. John Meluch (216) 228-4725 Mailing Address: 1354 W. Clifton #6, Lakewwod, OH. 44107 From eaj Mon Jun 19 16:22:22 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA61761; Mon, 19 Jun 1995 16:22:22 -0400 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 16:22:20 -0400 (EDT) From: "Eric A. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: RE: SF & Library Collections Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Although somewhat out of date, the Haworth Press published a special issue (vol. 2, no. 1/2 ; Fall/Winter 1982) of SPECIAL COLLECTIONS (ISSN 0270-3157) devoted to "Science Fiction Collections: Fantasy, Supernatural, & Weird Tales." The issue has various descpriptions of SF collections at various universities (which are now 13 years out of date) but also an interesting article by Fred Lerner on "The Cataloging and Classification of Science Fiction Collections" (pp. 151-170). Anyways ... EAJ *-------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Eric A. Johnson | *OPINIONS MINE* | | Senior Exchange Specialist (Baltics & CIS) | | | & Recommending Officer for Science Fiction | Voice: (202) 707-9498 | | Exchange & Gift Division (COLL/E&G/EES) | FAX: (202) 707-2086 | | Library of Congress, LM 632 | Email: [log in to unmask] | | Washington, DC 20540-4240 USA | | *-------------------------------------------------------------------------* "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Philip K. Dick, 1928-1982 From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 19 17:46:19 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA66782; Mon, 19 Jun 1995 17:46:19 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA26384; Mon, 19 Jun 1995 16:46:03 -0500 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 16:46:24 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: RE: Fwd: Please advise In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950619164607.13860E-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII There are also two X-Files novels out there, too... :-) AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place On Mon, 19 Jun 1995, D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple wrote: > > >> Is there such thing as "Secret Government Files", like the TV program, > "The > >> X-Files". > > [...] > > >What exactly does this have to do with Science Fiction Literature? > >Asimov, Bester, Silverberg - *written* SF - is what is usually discussed > >in this group - Perhaps you want the X-Files discussion group, > >alt.tv.x-files ? > > This seems harsh, not to mention patronising. > > I thought what distinguished this list from others was its primarily > "literary" bent - and it would seem counterproductive then to say that only > SOME carefully-written stuff was eligible for consideration. Of course I > presume you'd allow SF plays into the arena - until they were actually > performed of course, in which case we'd have to drop them hurriedly. What > about radio, film and TV adaptations of things? Gosh, what a difficult > one.... Still, as long as it was actually written FOR one of these media > then we're quite clear that it was never really "written" at all so we just > needn't worry about it... > > Dave > From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 19 20:20:26 1995 Received: from condor.CC.UMontreal.CA by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA44681; Mon, 19 Jun 1995 20:20:26 -0400 Received: from eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA (eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA [132.204.10.20]) by condor.CC.UMontreal.CA with ESMTP id UAA08402 (8.6.11/IDA-1.6 for <[log in to unmask]>); Mon, 19 Jun 1995 20:19:37 -0400 Received: by eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA (950221.405.SGI.8.6.10/5.17) id UAA21825; Mon, 19 Jun 1995 20:19:36 -0400 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 20:19:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: decimal SF classification To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Are youprsenting the first two levels only? Is there more? DE: Alain Vaillancourt [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 19 21:42:43 1995 Received: from aurora.northernlights.lib.mn.us by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA78783; Mon, 19 Jun 1995 21:42:43 -0400 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 20:44:16 -0500 (CDT) From: [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: SF thesaurus I am very interseted in the creation of this thesaurus. Two sources I sometimes use right now for readers' advisory are _What Do I Read Next_ (pub. Gale) and _Genreflecting_ by Betty Rosenberg. Both of these break down Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror into many sub catagories. _What Do I Read Next_ Fantasy Adventure Alternate World Anthology Collection Contemporary Contemporary Realism Historical (ex. Porcelain Dove, Song for Arbonne) Horror Legend Light Fantasy Literary Magic Conflict Military Mystery Political Post Disaster Psychic Powers Quest Religious Romance Science Fiction Sword and Sorcery Time Travel Urban (ex. DeLint) Young Adult Some other examples include Horror--evil children Horror--reanimated dead Horror--Wild talents Science Fiction--generation starship Science Fiction--space opera _WDIRN_ gives a one sentence definition for all these catagories also. Some of Genreflecting's catagories include: Science fiction--hard science Science fiction--dystopia/utopia Science fiction--lost worlds Science fiction--social criticism Fantasy--Arthurian Legend Fantasy--Tolkien tradition Fantasy--Shared worlds and franchise universes Both of these titles give many examples of what in their opinions fit the headings. katherine [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 20 00:13:07 1995 Received: from colin.muc.de by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA83130; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 00:13:07 -0400 Received: from uucp-m by colin.muc.de with UUCP id <25582-3>; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 06:12:53 +0200 Received: by uucp-m.muc.de (uzcopy); Tue, 20 Jun 1995 06:14:29 CET Return-Path: [log in to unmask] Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 23:04:00 +0200 From: [log in to unmask] (Timothy Slater) Reply-To: [log in to unmask] X-Mailer: CrossPoint v3.02 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: World SF Depository at U. Kansas References: <[log in to unmask]> Organization: Z-Netz Network Area, Germany X-Gateway: NETCALL3.8 UM uucp-m.muc.de [UZERCP V4.52], ZCONNECT UM uucp-m.muc.de [CONNECT*UZERCP V0.94] Content-Length: 762 Lines: 18 19.06.95 / 19 Jun 95 Any librarians at the University of Kansas reading this? Or anybody else who can provide information about the World SF Depository at the Kenneth Spencer Research Library, U. of Kansas? (A. Sawyer, perhaps?) Is it operating? Is it still looking for contributions? If so, what exactly? Any other information that might be of interest? -- Tim Slater, B.A. (Nat. Sci.), MITI [log in to unmask] CIS: 1000024,2546 Eglinger Str. 15A, D-82544 Egling-Moosham, GERMANY _____ __ phone: +49-8176-1393 fax: -1722 | |__ Oeffentlich bestellter und allgemein beeidigter | RAN __| LATER Dolmetscher und Uebersetzer fuer die englische Sprache ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## From cstu Tue Jun 20 09:58:57 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA90007; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 09:58:57 -0400 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 09:58:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: World SF Depository at U. Kansas Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sorry Timothy. It seems your address has additions sometimes; I have added an alias to the system, so hopefully this won't happen again. Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 23:04:00 +0200 From: [log in to unmask] (Timothy Slater) Subject: World SF Depository at U. Kansas 19.06.95 / 19 Jun 95 Any librarians at the University of Kansas reading this? Or anybody else who can provide information about the World SF Depository at the Kenneth Spencer Research Library, U. of Kansas? (A. Sawyer, perhaps?) Is it operating? Is it still looking for contributions? If so, what exactly? Any other information that might be of interest? -- Tim Slater, B.A. (Nat. Sci.), MITI [log in to unmask] CIS: 1000024,2546 Eglinger Str. 15A, D-82544 Egling-Moosham, GERMANY _____ __ phone: +49-8176-1393 fax: -1722 | |__ Oeffentlich bestellter und allgemein beeidigter | RAN __| LATER Dolmetscher und Uebersetzer fuer die englische Sprache ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 20 00:13:18 1995 Received: from colin.muc.de by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA61630; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 00:13:18 -0400 Received: from uucp-m by colin.muc.de with UUCP id <25581-3>; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 06:12:47 +0200 Received: by uucp-m.muc.de (uzcopy); Tue, 20 Jun 1995 06:14:26 CET Return-Path: [log in to unmask] Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 23:00:00 +0200 From: [log in to unmask] (Timothy Slater) Reply-To: [log in to unmask] X-Mailer: CrossPoint v3.02 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Why "terraforming" of Mars et al. References: <[log in to unmask]> Organization: Z-Netz Network Area, Germany X-Gateway: NETCALL3.8 UM uucp-m.muc.de [UZERCP V4.52], ZCONNECT UM uucp-m.muc.de [CONNECT*UZERCP V0.94] Content-Length: 803 Lines: 19 19.06.95 / 19 Jun 95 Richard Scott asked why the word "terraforming" is used in SF books about Mars et al., and whether this shouldn't be "areoforming". No, because the meaning of the term is "to change (the surface and biosphere of) another planet into an environment that Terrestrial life, especially human beings, can live in", i.e. "terra" refers to the goal, not the object of the reform. -- Tim Slater, B.A. (Nat. Sci.), MITI [log in to unmask] CIS: 1000024,2546 Eglinger Str. 15A, D-82544 Egling-Moosham, GERMANY _____ __ phone: +49-8176-1393 fax: -1722 | |__ Oeffentlich bestellter und allgemein beeidigter | RAN __| LATER Dolmetscher und Uebersetzer fuer die englische Sprache ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 20 00:56:23 1995 Received: from owlnet.rice.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA75232; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 00:56:23 -0400 Received: from great-gray.owlnet.rice.edu by owlnet.rice.edu (XAA23243); Mon, 19 Jun 1995 23:59:01 -0500 Received: by great-gray.owlnet.rice.edu (8.6.12/Rice Client-1.0) id XAA21162; Mon, 19 Jun 1995 23:56:21 -0500 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 23:56:20 -0500 (CDT) From: "John J. Ronald" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Written/other media thing - again... To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 19 Jun 1995, D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple wrote: > > I've just realised that the message I chose to jump on was originally > intended privately (I'm at work very early indeed and things are taking me a > while...), which makes my rather waspish response somewhat out of place in > itself. Apologies for that. All the same, now that it's out there, I > really am interested in what people think of the "validity" or whatever of > stuff that was not written entirely and exclusively for print (never mind > the fact that you can't guarantee it'll stay there even if that is where you > first put it...). > Having just had a Film Seminar last semester, I can say that we discussed at length the debate between traditional print texts and the filmic medium; Film has (until fairly recently) often been put down as less "intellectual" than the printed word, and cultural conservatives at the beginning of this century feared that the Cinema would spell the end of books altogether; Rather, film has raised itself up from pure entertainment and into the realm of legitimate intellectual expression worthy of academic criticism...it sort of mirrors the ascent of SF in a strange sort of way. Moreover, SF films have had their own history, growing up from cheesy "B" movies of the 1950s to todays SF films...but even in the early days of film there were excellent SF pieces, namely Fritz Lang's _Metropolis_ from Germany. And I know some people who praise the classic American films "The Forbidden Planet" and "The Day the Earth Stood Still". (I haven't seen these films, and thus can't give an opinion about them) highly as well. Since Cinema is accepted in other genres of Literature as worthy of academic criticism and attention, why not in SF as well? Granted, I think you have to separate more serious films (_2001_, _A Clockwork Orange_) from the pure entertainment flicks (_The Last Starfighter_, etc.), but beyond that, why not? Anyhow, I'm all for looking at & discussing SF in other media besides merely print texts...anyone else? --John Ronald Rice University From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 20 10:36:20 1995 Received: from [204.144.148.34] by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA40503; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 10:36:20 -0400 Received: by tripath.colosys.net; (5.65/1.1.8.2/28Apr95-0930AM) id AA16355; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 08:40:50 -0600 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 08:40:50 -0600 (MDT) From: Holly Koelling <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: SF thesaurus To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Just a note: the last 2 or 3 editions of _Genreflecting_ were written by Diana Tixier Herald. Betty Rosenberg passed away some time ago. The 4th edition will be out this August, and contains drastic changes in genre/subgenre categories. On Tue, 20 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > I am very interseted in the creation of this thesaurus. Two sources I > sometimes use right now for readers' advisory are _What Do I Read Next_ > (pub. Gale) and _Genreflecting_ by Betty Rosenberg. Both of these break > down Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror into many sub catagories. > _What Do I Read Next_ > Fantasy > Adventure > Alternate World > Anthology > Collection > Contemporary > Contemporary Realism > Historical (ex. Porcelain Dove, Song for Arbonne) > Horror > Legend > Light Fantasy > Literary > Magic Conflict > Military > Mystery > Political > Post Disaster > Psychic Powers > Quest > Religious > Romance > Science Fiction > Sword and Sorcery > Time Travel > Urban (ex. DeLint) > Young Adult > > Some other examples include Horror--evil children > Horror--reanimated dead > Horror--Wild talents > Science Fiction--generation starship > Science Fiction--space opera > _WDIRN_ gives a one sentence definition for all these catagories also. > > Some of Genreflecting's catagories include: > Science fiction--hard science > Science fiction--dystopia/utopia > Science fiction--lost worlds > Science fiction--social criticism > Fantasy--Arthurian Legend > Fantasy--Tolkien tradition > Fantasy--Shared worlds and franchise universes > Both of these titles give many examples of what in their opinions > fit the headings. > katherine > [log in to unmask] > From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 20 12:07:31 1995 Received: from odin.cc.pdx.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA80121; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 12:07:31 -0400 Received: (from bvmi@localhost) by odin.cc.pdx.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9MEP040594) id JAA27998; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 09:07:27 -0700 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 09:07:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Bowman <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: decimal SF classification In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 20 Jun 1995, Vaillancourt Alain wrote: > > > Are youprsenting the first two levels only? > > Is there more? The entire classification scheme is 20-40 pages long. The first two levels is all I'm willing to type in. If someone has a scanner and is willing to make electronic copies for people I'm willing to make a photocopy and mail it to them (I'd like an electronic copy myself). Michael Bowman [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 20 12:09:17 1995 Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA79686; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 12:09:17 -0400 Received: from uxa.liv.ac.uk by mail.liv.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 20 Jun 1995 17:07:24 +0100 From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: World SF Depository at U. Kansas To: [log in to unmask] Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 17:06:28 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Colleen Stumbaugh" at Jun 20, 95 10:01:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1545 In the last mail Colleen Stumbaugh said: > > Sorry Timothy. It seems your address has additions sometimes; I have > added an alias to the system, so hopefully this won't happen again. > > Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 23:04:00 +0200 > From: [log in to unmask] (Timothy Slater) > Subject: World SF Depository at U. Kansas > > 19.06.95 / 19 Jun 95 > > Any librarians at the University of Kansas reading this? Or anybody else who > can provide information about the World SF Depository at the Kenneth Spencer > Research Library, U. of Kansas? (A. Sawyer, perhaps?) > > Is it operating? Is it still looking for contributions? If so, what exactly? > Any other information that might be of interest? > This looks to me like the Kenneth Spencer Research Library, at University of Kansas, which according to Neil barron (Anatomy of Wonder) is the official repository for the archives of the Science Fiction research association and the North American Repository for World SF, which deposits non-English Language books. Its manuscript collection includes those of Cordwainer Smith. I am jealous. If anyone on here is anything to do with the collection, I'd love to hear from you.> -- Andy Sawyer, Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK 0151-794-2733/2696 [log in to unmask] http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html "Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 20 12:38:01 1995 Received: from ctc.ctc.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA73133; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 12:38:01 -0400 Received: by ctc.ctc.edu (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA100896142; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 09:35:42 -0700 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 09:35:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Wallace <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: fantasy genres/Betty Rosenberg Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Fantasy genres: Back when I was a member of the Mythopoeic Society, someone came up with the idea that there are three types of fantasy, each exemplified by the Three Authors that the society centered on: J. R. R. Tolkien - Completely alternate universe; cf. Steven Brust. C. S. Lewis - Modern humans go to alternate universe; cf. Stephen R. Donaldson (Covenant) Charles Williams - Alternate universe breaks in on modern world; cf. "Urban fantasy" Not exactly genres, but an interesting way of splitting out the types. Was the Betty Rosenberg who wrote _Genreflections_ the same as the instructor at UCLA's Grad. School of Lib. Science? She was my thesis advisor. regards, jim wallace [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 20 15:19:25 1995 Received: from IS.Dal.Ca by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA29259; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 15:19:25 -0400 Received: by is.dal.ca (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA85299; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 16:20:35 -0300 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 16:20:35 -0300 (ADT) From: Patricia Monk <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Patricia Monk <[log in to unmask]> Reply-To: Patricia Monk <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Written & Other Media To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII I acknowledge the validity of Film/TV as field of scholarly and academic and general interest. But I no longer have the time to involve myself in a completely new area and become knowledgeable enough to understand discussions of it on this list. This limitation means that, if there are going to be long discussions of SF in Other Media in this group, I am simply going to spend time deleting things without reading them. Cannot those people interested in SF and Other Media set up or have set up for them, a discussion group of their own? I am sorry to be so disagreeable, but I only have one head and it is already in use. :-) ***************************************************************** patricia monk (dr) [log in to unmask] "just visiting this planet" ***************************************************************** From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 20 15:47:14 1995 Received: from ns.pilot.net by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA69450; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 15:47:14 -0400 Received: from Altera.COM ([137.57.1.1]) by mail.pilot.net (4.1 1/7/93 /SMI-4.1) id AA06658; Tue, 20 Jun 95 12:47:13 PDT Received: from rodan.altera.com by Altera.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26775; Tue, 20 Jun 95 12:48:19 PDT Received: from martinw by rodan.altera.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02256; Tue, 20 Jun 95 12:48:49 PDT From: [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] Subject: SF in Other Media (was: other media thing) Reply-To: [log in to unmask] Date: Tue, 20 Jun 95 12:37:41 PDT Message-Id: <9506201937.294F28@martinw> X-Mailer: SelectMAIL 1.2 John J. Ronald ([log in to unmask]) wrote: |Since Cinema is accepted in |other genres of Literature as worthy of academic criticism |and attention, why not in SF as well? IMHO, there's no reason not to discuss SF cinema in a serious, critical fashion (and I think Colleen would be open to it, too). Anyone who's read this list over the last few weeks knows that I'm prone to spouting about SF in comic book form as well. I personally enjoy and value discussion of SF in any media; for the literature purists out there, I think that you can look at some very clear and fascinating connections between SF lit and cinema that would expand understanding of both forms, i.e. the evolution of Clarke's "The Sentinel" into Clarke/Kubrick's cinematic "2001" into Clarke's "2001" novel, PKD's "Androids...Sheep" into PKD's/Scott's "Blade Runner", etc. |And I know some people who praise the classic American films |"The Forbidden Planet" and "The Day the Earth Stood Still". |(I haven't seen these films, and thus can't give an opinion |about them) highly as well. Get thee to a video store! See Leslie Nielsen in a dramatic "starship captain" role! Discover the highly significant meaning behind the cryptic phrase, "Gort Klaatu Barada Nikto"! Seriously, though, for other reasons, I do consider these films important to the history of cinematic SF and thus to the genre of SF--I won't ruin the films for you by explaining why--maybe after you've viddied them. |Granted, I think you |have to separate more serious films (_2001_, _A Clockwork Orange_) |from the pure entertainment flicks (_The Last Starfighter_, etc.), |but beyond that, why not? I certainly agree that some films have more value than other films, but I wouldn't go so far as to draw hard and fast lines between "these films" and "those films", perhaps because I've seen lines drawn that excluded films that I value (i.e. Soylent Green, Westworld, Silent Running, Rollerball, etc.), even if they are less valuable (or "rich") than others. |Anyhow, I'm all for looking at & discussing SF in other |media besides merely print texts...anyone else? You know my vote. Anyone want to say anything about interactive media? I seem to recall a Niven quote (off the box, I think) regarding the Ringworld computer game, something like "I always felt that the next Ringworld novel should be interactive..." -Martin S. Won [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 20 15:53:31 1995 Received: from FreeLunch.FreeNet.Kiev.UA by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA52363; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 15:53:31 -0400 Received: from sfclub.UUCP (uuwash@localhost) by FreeLunch.FreeNet.Kiev.UA (8.6.12/0409) with UUCP id WAA24123 for [log in to unmask]; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 22:55:18 +0300 Received: by sfclub.FreeNet.Kiev.UA (UUPC/@ v5.09gamma, 14Mar93); Sat, 17 Jun 1995 20:04:31 +0300 To: [log in to unmask] References: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Organization: Zoryany Shlyah SF Club From: Boris Sidyuk <[log in to unmask]> Date: Sat, 17 Jun 95 20:04:31 +0300 X-Mailer: BML [MS/DOS Beauty Mail v.1.36] Subject: Re: From [log in to unmask]: Please advise Lines: 11 > Is there such thing as "Secret Government Files", like the TV program, "The > X-Files". > > And what about the so-called Sceret Files from the KGB that discuss > UFO and alien encounters. I heard there are secret files about UFO in the XUSSR. I was fond of UFO in my teens. Sorry, not now. Regards, Boris [log in to unmask] From cstu Wed Jun 21 12:16:38 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA46981; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 12:16:38 -0400 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 12:16:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Discussion is open to all media Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This list is open to discussion of all media, as long as it is on science fiction, fantasy, or horror and approaches it from a research, study, or librarianship angle. Yes, I have been very liberal in interpreting the last part, but all of you are great at seeing the research part of these postings. Since we have had discussions on many media forms (books, comics, TV, movies) already, I think we will not be swamped by any one form now. This is not a large group (currently 480+ members) and most of you are using good descriptive subject lines. So lets keep doing what we have been for now. Colleen Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 20 15:53:37 1995 Received: from FreeLunch.FreeNet.Kiev.UA by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA86672; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 15:53:37 -0400 Received: from sfclub.UUCP (uuwash@localhost) by FreeLunch.FreeNet.Kiev.UA (8.6.12/0409) with UUCP id WAA24126 for [log in to unmask]; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 22:55:20 +0300 Received: by sfclub.FreeNet.Kiev.UA (UUPC/@ v5.09gamma, 14Mar93); Sat, 17 Jun 1995 20:06:39 +0300 To: [log in to unmask] References: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Organization: Zoryany Shlyah SF Club From: Boris Sidyuk <[log in to unmask]> Date: Sat, 17 Jun 95 20:06:39 +0300 X-Mailer: BML [MS/DOS Beauty Mail v.1.36] Subject: From Adora: Re: Plot??? Lines: 12 >> Boris said: >> Anyway, I agree with one true postulate - >> there is only one plot in literature - Odyssey. > > I'm confused. Do you mean the _Odyssey_ (read: ancient greek book) or > 'odessey' (read: persons partaking of a journey)? > This isn't a challange - just a question. I meant Odyssey as a plot not as a character. Regards, Boris [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 20 22:23:07 1995 Received: from nethost.multnomah.lib.or.us by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA56034; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 22:23:07 -0400 Received: (from florap@localhost) by nethost.multnomah.lib.or.us (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA04754; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 19:18:52 -0700 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 19:18:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Flora Persons <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: classifications In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Please consider Olderr's Fiction Subject Headings bySteven Olderr,as I have found his subject headings to be very practical. Also, If you have access to Science-Fiction: the early years by Everett F. Bleiler, it is a wonderful example of the most detailed and usable indexing I have seen for SF. Hopefully, he, or someone else will continue the index (It only covers the time up to the 1930's) FloraJane Persons Librarian Popular Library Section Multnomah County Library 248-5471 From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 20 22:35:08 1995 Received: from condor.CC.UMontreal.CA by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA36101; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 22:35:08 -0400 Received: from eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA (eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA [132.204.10.20]) by condor.CC.UMontreal.CA with ESMTP id WAA04933 (8.6.11/IDA-1.6 for <[log in to unmask]>); Tue, 20 Jun 1995 22:34:11 -0400 Received: by eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA (950221.405.SGI.8.6.10/5.17) id WAA24023; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 22:34:10 -0400 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 22:34:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: decimal SF classification To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 20 Jun 1995, Michael Bowman wrote: > Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 12:36:48 -0400 > From: Michael Bowman <[log in to unmask]> > To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: decimal SF classification > > On Tue, 20 Jun 1995, Vaillancourt Alain wrote: > > > > Are youprsenting the first two levels only? > > > > Is there more? > > The entire classification scheme is 20-40 pages long. The first two > levels is all I'm willing to type in. If someone has a scanner and is > willing to make electronic copies for people I'm willing to make a > photocopy and mail it to them (I'd like an electronic copy myself). > > Michael Bowman > [log in to unmask] > Could you just tell us where Alastair Cameron published this first in 1952? For some of us, it might be easier to find than a copy of Issue no. 8 (winter 89) of _the whole sf database quarterly_ Au revoir! DE: Alain Vaillancourt [log in to unmask] From cstu Wed Jun 21 12:40:34 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA69630; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 12:40:34 -0400 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 12:40:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: RE: decimal SF classification (fwd) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 22:34:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: decimal SF classification On Tue, 20 Jun 1995, Michael Bowman wrote: > Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 12:36:48 -0400 > From: Michael Bowman <[log in to unmask]> > To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: decimal SF classification > > On Tue, 20 Jun 1995, Vaillancourt Alain wrote: > > > > Are youprsenting the first two levels only? > > > > Is there more? > > The entire classification scheme is 20-40 pages long. The first two > levels is all I'm willing to type in. If someone has a scanner and is > willing to make electronic copies for people I'm willing to make a > photocopy and mail it to them (I'd like an electronic copy myself). > > Michael Bowman > [log in to unmask] > Could you just tell us where Alastair Cameron published this first in 1952? For some of us, it might be easier to find than a copy of Issue no. 8 (winter 89) of _the whole sf database quarterly_ Au revoir! DE: Alain Vaillancourt [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 20 22:49:29 1995 Received: from snycorva.cortland.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA59579; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 22:49:29 -0400 Received: from snycorva.cortland.edu by snycorva.cortland.edu (PMDF V4.3-10 #8051) id <[log in to unmask]>; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 22:50:48 +0000 (EASTERN) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 22:50:48 +0000 (EASTERN) From: "BOB S." <[log in to unmask]> Subject: CLARKEAN MAGIC To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I believe it was Arthur C. Clarke who wrote something like "any sufficiently advance technology will appear to be magic." Does anyone know the actual quotation and the source? Thanks in advance. From cstu Wed Jun 21 13:02:43 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA58121; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 13:02:43 -0400 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 13:02:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: CLARKEAN MAGIC In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Bob, I remembered that this same question came up a few months ago, so I checked in the SF-LIT archives (available via LC MARVEL, our gopher) and found that Eric A. Johnson located the source as OMNI, April 1980, P. 87 and that the quote was: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistingishable from magic" There are also some amusing variants on this quote in the same archives (sf-litlog.9403). Colleen Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT [log in to unmask] On Wed, 21 Jun 1995, BOB S. wrote: > I believe it was Arthur C. Clarke who wrote something like "any sufficiently > advance technology will appear to be magic." Does anyone know the actual > quotation and the source? Thanks in advance. > From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 20 23:38:53 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA18243; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 23:38:53 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA03959; Tue, 20 Jun 1995 22:38:33 -0500 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 22:38:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Cc: [log in to unmask] Subject: Mostly Harmless Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950620223652.14916G-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII That is what the 5th book in the HHGTTG series is, same as the title. Nowhere near the level of the first two, not even as good as the third or the fourth. Was ok mind candy, but not really funny and a very quick read. Is Adams sick of it, or just not as funny anymore? Or, or we just jaded and used to it? Mostly Arthur and Ford, with a bit of Trillian or two thrown in. AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 21 00:46:02 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA35318; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 00:46:02 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA290749961; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 00:46:01 -0400 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 00:46:01 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF thesaurus I have four thoughts on the creation of an SF Thesaurus: Is 'SF Thesaurus' the right name for this piece of work? SF Catalogue? SF Directory? SF Classifications? Thesaurus seems to imply an source for cross-referencing SF terminology. Consider using extended descriptions or definitions for each heading/sub-heading as might be required. 'Light Fantasy', for instance, is quite vague. 'Magic Conflict', however, is very concrete. How would the catalogue's format be changed if it were to include other SF medias? Film, Stage, Poetry, Music and others, while not written, are still valid SF genres. How could such a catalogue be created to allow more access from a broader, non-SF community. For instance, a child wanting to look up a story about a friendly dragon? Or someone who wants to know more about the book behind the movie 2001? (I know, a bit funny, and perhaps obvious, but it is late and I couldn't come up with anything better.) "Any technology, sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clarke From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 21 08:45:17 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA11429; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 08:45:17 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA086838716; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 08:45:17 -0400 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 08:45:17 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: 19th Cent. SF I am presently in the process of editing a collection of pre-twentieth century SF to be used in high school classes. I will also be creating learning activities to go with them. I have a list of 13 titles presently ( Wells, Hawthorne, Poe, Bierce, Voltaire's Micromegas, E.T. A Hoffman, Melville, Twain). Any suggestions re: other authors, titles. THANKS! John Meluch From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 21 12:20:41 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA48788; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 12:20:41 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA277401641; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 12:20:41 -0400 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 12:20:41 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF in Other Media (was: other media thing) Hi If Connie Willis had to restrict her thinking she couldn't write. Cooleridge.. Think in other categories. Martin From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 21 13:42:36 1995 Received: from bos1h.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA34143; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 13:42:36 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 13:42:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 13:42:35 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Written & Other Media To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I delete every message that looks like it's going to be about movies or TV. No great effort. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 21 14:01:59 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA35080; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 14:01:59 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA16300; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 13:01:41 -0500 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 13:02:04 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Written & Other Media In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950621130130.7379B-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII That is what this one is for, already, according to the owner. :) Like you said, delete key works well for what you are not interested in! AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place On Wed, 21 Jun 1995, Patricia Monk wrote: > I acknowledge the validity of Film/TV as field of scholarly and academic > and general interest. But I no longer have the time to involve myself in > a completely new area and become knowledgeable enough to understand > discussions of it on this list. This limitation means that, if there are > going to be long discussions of SF in Other Media in this group, I am > simply going to spend time deleting things without reading them. Cannot > those people interested in SF and Other Media set up or have set up for > them, a discussion group of their own? I am sorry to be so disagreeable, > but I only have one head and it is already in use. :-) > > > ***************************************************************** > patricia monk (dr) [log in to unmask] > "just visiting this planet" > ***************************************************************** > > > > From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 21 14:22:54 1995 Received: from owlnet.rice.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA57264; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 14:22:54 -0400 Received: from goat.owlnet.rice.edu by owlnet.rice.edu (NAA10024); Wed, 21 Jun 1995 13:22:53 -0500 Received: by goat.owlnet.rice.edu (8.6.12/Rice Client-1.0) id NAA08837; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 13:22:54 -0500 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 13:22:53 -0500 (CDT) From: "John J. Ronald" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: 19th Cent. SF To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 21 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > I am presently in the process of editing a collection of pre-twentieth > century SF to be used in high school classes. I will also be creating > learning activities to go with them. I have a list of 13 titles presently ( > Wells, Hawthorne, Poe, Bierce, Voltaire's Micromegas, E.T. A Hoffman, > Melville, Twain). > > Any suggestions re: other authors, titles. THANKS! John, Check out German author Kurd Lasswitz! He died in 1910, but his most famous novel, _Auf Zwei Planeten_ ("On Two Planets", widely available in translation) was written just before the close of the 19th century. Lasswitz also has some facinating essays that anticipate much of SF-theory that was to evolve in the 20th century (speculations about what our moral responsibilities would be vis a vis alien visitors, etc.); Unfortunately, Lasswitz is largely ignored by German literary scholars and largely unknown in the English-speaking world. Have a look at him, anyway. Unlike most of the above authors you mention, Lasswitz was a scientist & mathematician also. --J. Ronald Rice University Dept. of German & Slavic Studies From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 21 14:31:49 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA54682; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 14:31:49 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA18271; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 13:31:29 -0500 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 13:31:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: 19th Cent. SF In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950621133137.7379F-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Verne, Shelley, De Bergerac, perhaps? :-) AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 21 14:36:39 1995 Received: from odin.cc.pdx.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA61183; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 14:36:39 -0400 Received: (from bvmi@localhost) by odin.cc.pdx.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9MEP040594) id LAA10955; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 11:36:30 -0700 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 11:36:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Bowman <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: RE: decimal SF classification (fwd) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 21 Jun 1995, Colleen Stumbaugh wrote: > For some of us, it might be easier to find than a copy of Issue no. 8 > (winter 89) of _the whole sf database quarterly_ I'm afraid that WSFDBQ #8 didn't say where they got it from, only the date it originally came out. Michael Bowman [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 21 14:37:34 1995 Received: from mail.crl.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA26417; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 14:37:34 -0400 Received: from crl4.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA16654 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for <[log in to unmask]>); Wed, 21 Jun 1995 11:36:02 -0700 Received: by crl4.crl.com id AA04303 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for [log in to unmask]); Wed, 21 Jun 1995 11:36:01 -0700 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 11:36:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Joe DeRouen <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Television, gotta love it! In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hey, I was watching television the other night, and . . . On Wed, 21 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > I delete every message that looks like it's going to be about movies > or TV. No great effort. > > -- Mike Resnick > Guess you'll never see this then, hmm? :) I personally delete about 2/3's of everything I receive in my mailbox, without reading it first. I think you have to if you want to get anything done. Of those 2/3's, television and movie-based notes in sf-lit DO get deleted an awful lot. sf-lit stands for Science-Fiction Literature, after all, and that why I subscribed to begin with; to read about SF. Joe DeRouen /-----------------------------------------------------------------\ | Joe DeRouen [log in to unmask] Dallas, Texas USA | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | Joe is a freelance writer with regular columns appearing in the | | Dallas/Ft. Worth and Houston Computer Currents magazines. | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | http://www.crl.com/~jderouen/index.html BBS: 214/620-8793 | \-----------------------------------------------------------------/ From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 21 15:10:46 1995 Received: from gateway.morgan.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA82000; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 15:10:46 -0400 Received: from exadm1.morgan.com ([138.20.156.11]) by gateway.morgan.com with SMTP id <41845>; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 15:10:31 -0400 Received: from nylanr01.morgan.com (nylanr02.morgan.com [138.20.97.23]) by exadm1.morgan.com (8.6.12/sendmail.cf.hub v.99beta) with SMTP id OAA22834 for <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 14:19:43 -0400 Received: from cc:Mail by nylanr01.morgan.com id AA803769302; Wed, 21 Jun 95 14:14:36 EST Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 15:14:36 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re[2]: CLARKEAN MAGIC Arthur C. Clarke is in fact the source. Clarke's Third Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." His first two laws, also quoted in the book "Profiles of the Future: An Inquiry into the Limits of the Possible," (so my source says) are as follows: Clarke's First Law: "When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong." Clarke's Second Law: "The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible." Hope that helps, Andy ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: CLARKEAN MAGIC Author: [log in to unmask] at nylanr01 Date: 6/21/95 1:31 PM Bob, I remembered that this same question came up a few months ago, so I checked in the SF-LIT archives (available via LC MARVEL, our gopher) and found that Eric A. Johnson located the source as OMNI, April 1980, P. 87 and that the quote was: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistingishable from magic" There are also some amusing variants on this quote in the same archives (sf-litlog.9403). Colleen Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT [log in to unmask] On Wed, 21 Jun 1995, BOB S. wrote: > I believe it was Arthur C. Clarke who wrote something like "any sufficiently > advance technology will appear to be magic." Does anyone know the actual > quotation and the source? Thanks in advance. > From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 21 15:23:48 1995 Received: from Kitten.mcs.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA54679; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 15:23:48 -0400 Received: from nsls1.nslsilus.org (nsls1.nslsilus.org [192.160.127.70]) by kitten.mcs.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA24079 for <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 14:23:47 -0500 Received: by nsls1.nslsilus.org (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.5) id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 21 Jun 95 14:23 CDT Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 14:23:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Roberta Johnson <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: CLARKEAN MAGIC To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >From Gale's Quotations CD ROM: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Attributed to _The Lost Worlds of 2001_. Roberta On Wed, 21 Jun 1995, BOB S. wrote: > I believe it was Arthur C. Clarke who wrote something like "any sufficiently > advance technology will appear to be magic." Does anyone know the actual > quotation and the source? Thanks in advance. > From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 21 15:34:24 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA82675; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 15:34:24 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA169663080; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 15:31:20 -0400 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 15:31:20 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: 19th Cent. SF In a message dated 95-06-21 14:17:09 EDT, you write: > am presently in the process of editing a collection of pre-twentieth >century SF to be used in high school classes. I will also be creating >learning activities to go with them. I have a list of 13 titles presently ( >Wells, Hawthorne, Poe, Bierce, Voltaire's Micromegas, E.T. A Hoffman, >Melville, Twain). > >Any suggestions re: other authors, titles. THANKS! > >John Meluch > > Perhaps Jules Verne? In my oppinion he is just about the most famous author of Pre-Twentieth Century Science Fiction there is. For Example: Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea. I hope this helps, Eric Shivak PS This is my first response to this list ::grins:: Feels great to be here! From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 21 15:39:37 1995 Received: from POSTOFFICE.MAIL.CORNELL.EDU by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA62024; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 15:39:37 -0400 Received: from [132.236.167.133] ([132.236.167.133]) by postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA28987 for <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 15:39:34 -0400 X-Nupop-Charset: English Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 15:41:05 -0400 (EDT) From: "Sandra Kisner" <[log in to unmask]> Sender: [log in to unmask] Reply-To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF thesaurus Maybe what we need is the SF equivalent of the Stith Thompson folklore motif index. Any takers to put it all together? ;-) Sandra Kisner [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 21 16:41:04 1995 Received: from portal.dx.net by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA92635; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 16:41:04 -0400 Received: from heartbeat.org (heartbeat.org [199.190.113.2]) by portal.dx.net (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA09185 for < [log in to unmask]>; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 16:45:39 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Received: from MHS by heartbeat.org with MHS id $T100074 ; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 16:33:06 EST Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 16:32:34 +0500 Subject: 19th Cent. SF To: [log in to unmask] X-Wg-Gmid: -1300195958/417639 X-Wg-Thrid: -762719541 X-Wg-Rplto: -1300195958/417563 S>I am presently in the process of editing a collection of pre-twentieth S>century SF to be used in high school classes. <snip>. S>Any suggestions re: other authors, titles. THANKS! S>John Meluch Cyrano De Beserac's (or however it's spelt, you know the guy with the nose) Voyage to the moon. And of course Vern. Tim Tulley From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 21 16:44:01 1995 Received: from gilbert.ucc.hull.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA58313; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 16:44:01 -0400 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Received: from humus.ucc.hull.ac.uk (actually host adelphi-le0.ucc.hull.ac.uk) by gilbert.ucc.hull.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:43:17 +0100 Received: from humus.computer-centre.hull.ac.uk by humus.computer-centre.hull.ac.uk id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:43:14 +0100 Subject: Re: CLARKEAN MAGIC To: [log in to unmask] Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:43:12 +0100 (BST) From: Andy Butler <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Colleen Stumbaugh" at Jun 21, 95 01:04:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 937 Sender: [log in to unmask] This goes back further than OMNI, April 1980, P. 87 : "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistingishable from magic" In Harold Faber's The Book of Laws the source is a quote from ACC in New Yorker Aug 9 1969, and it is Clarke's third law. (First Law: If an elderly but distinguished scientist says that something is possible, he is almost certainly right, but if he says that it is impossible, he is very probably wrong. Second Law: The only way to find the limits of the possible is to go beyond them into the impossible.") The third law also appears in a footnote to the 2nd edition of Profiles of the Future (1973, p. 39) and it probably predates this by some time. Cheers Andy Butler Joint co-ordinator Academic Fantastic Fiction Network English Department University of Hull Hull UK [log in to unmask] "We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?" From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 21 22:32:19 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23067; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 22:32:19 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA180428339; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 22:32:19 -0400 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 22:32:19 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: decimal SF classification >The entire classification scheme is 20-40 pages long. The first two >levels is all I'm willing to type in. If someone has a scanner and is >willing to make electronic copies for people I'm willing to make a >photocopy and mail it to them (I'd like an electronic copy myself). >Michael Bowman If the print is 12 point or larger, feel free to fax it to: (800) 532-4037 Attention:Scott and I'll be happy to change it to electronic format and e-mail or post copies. Scott Nelson New [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 21 22:35:05 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA52852; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 22:35:05 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA041578504; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 22:35:04 -0400 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 22:35:04 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Written vs. films, TV etc. In recent weeks I have noticed what seems to be a sort of snobbery among this crowd: "I don't like fantasy", "I don't like talking about SF movies, TV, etc.". For me SF is a medium without boundries, where anything is possible. True, most SF movies and TV series tend to pander a bit too much to the masses. But there are many SF movies out there that succeed in filling me with the same wonder and facination that I recieve from the best written SF. I would site 2001/2010 as an example. And if you are looking for a literary bent, has anyone out there seen the film adaptation of Stanislaw Lem's Solaris? The book was difficult to follow, and I'm not sure the movie was any easier, but both definately made you think, and for me that's the whole purpose of science fiction. All great questions begin with the phrase, "What if...?" What should it matter what medium the answer comes to us in? Pete From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 21 22:35:13 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA68230; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 22:35:13 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA042078512; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 22:35:12 -0400 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 22:35:12 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: 19th Cent. SF Thanks J. Ronald. I am editing a text for high school students. Am primarily looking for short stories. J. Meluch From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 21 22:51:35 1995 Received: from UWSTOUT.EDU by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA36830; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 22:51:35 -0400 Received: from UWSTOUT.EDU by UWSTOUT.EDU (PMDF V4.3-7 #4883) id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:50:29 CST Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:50:29 -0600 (CST) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: 19th Cent. SF To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Suggestions for an anthology on pre-20th sf for high school classes: check out the new edition of Franklin's Future Perfect, just out from Rutgers UP. For 19th c. American sf at least, it's the standard text. Try to include at least one exerpt from one of the early feminist utopias. Mike Levy From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 06:30:31 1995 Received: from IS.Dal.Ca by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA13059; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 06:30:31 -0400 Received: by is.dal.ca (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA60246; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 07:31:43 -0300 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 07:31:43 -0300 (ADT) From: Patricia Monk <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Clarkean Magic - Another Source To: [log in to unmask] In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I have a copy of Clarke's _Profiles of the Future: An Enquiry into the Limits of the Possible_, published in Toronto by Popular Library, and copyright 1977, and describing itself as the "latest revised edition". In a footnote to "Hazards of Prophecy: The Failure of Imagination", Clarke writes, "The French edition of this book rather surprised me by calling this ['But the only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible'] Clarke's Second Law ... I accept the label, and have also formulated a Third: 'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.' AS three laws were good enough for Newton, I have modestly decided to stop; there" (p39). This article also presents his First Law, which he explains as follows: "Too great a burden of knowledge can clog the wheels of imagination; I have tried to embody this fact of observation in Clarke's Law, which may be formulated as follows: 'When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. Whe he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong'" (p32). ***************************************************************** patricia monk (dr) [log in to unmask] "just visiting this planet" ***************************************************************** On Wed, 21 Jun 1995, BOB S. wrote: > I believe it was Arthur C. Clarke who wrote something like "any sufficiently > advance technology will appear to be magic." Does anyone know the actual > quotation and the source? Thanks in advance. > From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 06:58:21 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA74320; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 06:58:21 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 11:53:30 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 22 Jun 95 11:53:28 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: Mostly Harmless Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 11:09:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 26 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 >That is what the 5th book in the HHGTTG series is, same as the title. >Nowhere near the level of the first two, not even as good as the third or >the fourth. Was ok mind candy, but not really funny and a very quick >read. Is Adams sick of it, or just not as funny anymore? Or, or we just >jaded and used to it? I haven't read that one, but I've heard pretty much the same from everyone I know who has. Personally I thought that all the books were greatly inferior to the original series - radio was just (I thought) a much more creative format for it. (I really do think that - I'm not just a diehard purist!) The first couple of books seemed OK as fun spinoffs. At the time, in the UK at least, you couldn't move for HHG merchandise of one sort or another and it seems clear that the books initially came into existence as part of that wave rather than as particularly creative events in their own right. The whole thing slid somewhat downhill after that. The TV series didn't help, either. I do wonder whether Adams is getting tired. I thought the first Dirk Gently novel was the first truly original thing I'd seen from him for a very long time. Nicely poised, understated, and full of bizarre things that really (you found out gradually) did belong there. And the second was awful. It begins to sound as if his interest has waned somewhat. Maybe Mostly Harmless was just cranked out when he got the gas bill. Dave From cstu Thu Jun 22 08:18:26 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA37202; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 08:18:26 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 08:18:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Dewey Classification Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Here is the catalog record I found for the 1952 edition of Cameron's classification: LIBRARY OF CONGRESS 001 52-33139 050 Z697.F3C3 100 Cameron, Alastair Graham Walter, 1925- 245 Fantasy classification system. 250 [1st ed.] 260 St. Vital, Manitoba, Canadian Science Fiction Association [1952] 300 52 p. 29 cm. 650 Classification--Books--Fantasy. Since I am interested in working on the thesaurus, I am currently trying to retrieve this work to look at it. I will let you know more when I get it. Colleen _________________________________________________________________________ Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian [log in to unmask] Library of Congress (202) 707-4132 Washington, DC 20540-4861 FAX: (202) 707-4142 These opinions are mine, Mine MINE! __________________________________________________________________________ From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 08:00:25 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA49793; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 08:00:25 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 13:00:16 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 22 Jun 95 13:00:14 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: CLARKEAN MAGIC Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 12:44:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 20 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 >>From Gale's Quotations CD ROM: > >"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." >Attributed to _The Lost Worlds of 2001_. > >Roberta >On Wed, 21 Jun 1995, BOB S. wrote: I have a vague recollection that it came up in Report on Planet Three as well - can't decide how old that is, though it's certainly pretty ancient now, which is the main reason I'm not particularly sure about anything about it.... In fact I think that someone else might have suggested this as well last time this went round. Generally, though,I'm sure the quote must be pre-1980 (I think that was the date of the OMNI ref. that was given). Unhelpfully yours... Dave From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 08:09:04 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA86048; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 08:09:04 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA064992944; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 08:09:04 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 08:09:04 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: 19th Cent. SF Thanks, I have the Franklin work. J. Meluch From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 08:14:13 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA41043; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 08:14:13 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 13:13:20 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 22 Jun 95 13:13:18 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: Written vs. films, TV etc. Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 13:12:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 30 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 [log in to unmask]: [...] >But there are many SF movies out there that succeed in filling me >with the same wonder and facination that I recieve from the best written SF. >I would site 2001/2010 as an example. And if you are looking for a literary >bent, has anyone out there seen the film adaptation of Stanislaw Lem's >Solaris? The book was difficult to follow, and I'm not sure the movie was any >easier, but both definately made you think, and for me that's the whole >purpose of science fiction. I don't see any possible argument against this. Metropolis, Zardoz and Silent Running, for instance, use SF in their different ways to make their pretty strident political points. Obviously there are arguments to be had, among those who are interested, as to how successful or appropriate any of these was, but it would seem neurotic to decide at the outset that they did not actually "qualify" in some way as purposeful SF. It would be ludicrous, for another instance, to try to talk about the place of modern SF as a genre in the marketplace, printed or not, without acknowledging the MASSIVE influence, for better or worse, of Star Wars and its ilk. As an extension of this it would be strange not to acknowledge those films and TV shows of lesser "quality" or "merit" (by whose standards, anyway?) by any broad distinction: there is an awfully large number of these things about, and to an extent by that token they ARE modern SF. We don't have to like that, but it would be senseless to ignore it wilfully. It's all important, I'd say. Dave From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 09:26:19 1995 Received: from gw1.att.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA79032; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 09:26:19 -0400 Received: from hellas.nw.att.com by ig1.att.att.com id AA10523; Thu, 22 Jun 95 09:26:09 EDT Received: by hellas.nw.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA24774; Thu, 22 Jun 95 08:26:10 CDT Received: by hellas.nw.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA24767; Thu, 22 Jun 95 08:26:05 CDT Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 08:26:05 CDT From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Mostly Harmless > That is what the 5th book in the HHGTTG series is, same as the title. > Nowhere near the level of the first two, not even as good as the third or > the fourth. Was ok mind candy, but not really funny and a very quick > read. Is Adams sick of it, or just not as funny anymore? Or, or we just > jaded and used to it? I truly believe that Mostly Harmless is the worst book in the series. Yes, it was a very quick read (even for me), and no, it wasn't funny at all, at least not in the way that the original Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy was. I suspect the real issue is whether he just did it for the quick money it would generate. I mean, I don't find a lot of things funny that I used to 10 or 15 years ago, but if I went back and read HHGTTG, I'd still be laughing. I just don't think he is as funny anymore. Unless of course, he didn't intend the book to be funny. On the other hand, I enjoyed the first Dirk Gently book, and it wasn't that funny. I think Adams still writes good material, just not good Hitchhiker material. Joe Karpierz From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 09:37:31 1995 Received: from gw1.att.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA59990; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 09:37:31 -0400 Received: from hellas.nw.att.com by ig1.att.att.com id AA17821; Thu, 22 Jun 95 09:37:16 EDT Received: by hellas.nw.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA25080; Thu, 22 Jun 95 08:37:18 CDT Received: by hellas.nw.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA25076; Thu, 22 Jun 95 08:37:15 CDT Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 08:37:15 CDT From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Science Fiction Literature and Email Load > > Guess you'll never see this then, hmm? :) I personally delete about > 2/3's of everything I receive in my mailbox, without reading it first. I > think you have to if you want to get anything done. Of those 2/3's, > television and movie-based notes in sf-lit DO get deleted an awful lot. I tend to agree here. Since I only have a work account, and generally only read my email during work hours, I end up deleting a lot of stuff simply based on the subject line, or at least a quick scan of the message. And honestly, even though I watch some sf TV, most of the TV/Movie based messages from this list get deleted. > sf-lit stands for Science-Fiction Literature, after all, and that why I > subscribed to begin with; to read about SF. Exactly. I was looking for a good forum for discussion about sf literature that did not have wasted bandwidth with the flaming and sillyness (I think I need a spellchecker there) that abounds on the usenet newsgroups. Happily, I have found it here. Joe Karpierz From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 09:40:18 1995 Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA29458; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 09:40:18 -0400 Received: from uxa.liv.ac.uk by mail.liv.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 22 Jun 1995 14:39:48 +0100 From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: CLARKEAN MAGIC To: [log in to unmask] Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 14:39:15 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "BOB S." at Jun 21, 95 12:54:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 691 In the last mail BOB S. said: > > I believe it was Arthur C. Clarke who wrote something like "any sufficiently > advance technology will appear to be magic." Does anyone know the actual > quotation and the source? Thanks in advance. > "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic' Clarke's Third Law (PROFILES OF THE FUTURE, Gollancz 1974 P.39) -- Andy Sawyer, Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK 0151-794-2733/2696 [log in to unmask] http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html "Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 09:52:32 1995 Received: from indst.indstate.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA76653; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 09:52:32 -0400 Received: from root.indstate.edu by INDST.INDSTATE.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 22 Jun 95 08:54:29 EST Received: from ROOT/MERCURY by root.indstate.edu (Mercury 1.20); 22 Jun 95 08:52:39 GMT-5 Received: from MERCURY by ROOT (Mercury 1.20); 22 Jun 95 08:52:37 GMT-5 From: "EJUSERS" <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 08:52:35 EST Subject: Re: SF thesaurus Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Date sent: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 07:08:44 -0400 Send reply to: [log in to unmask] From: "Sandra Kisner" <[log in to unmask]> To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: SF thesaurus >Maybe what we need is the SF equivalent of the Stith Thompson >folklore motif index. Any takers to put it all together? ;-) >Sandra Kisner >[log in to unmask] There is a very extensive motif index in E.F. Bleiler's *Science- Fiction: The Early Years*. --R.D. Mullen <[log in to unmask]> From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 09:55:23 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA84033; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 09:55:23 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA132889322; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 09:55:22 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 09:55:22 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF thesaurus Many years ago in my youth Syrcacuse University was doing a gathering of SCFI lit. Still, transferred or what? Martin From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 09:58:30 1995 Received: from cunyvm.cuny.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA54783; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 09:58:30 -0400 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Received: from CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1037; Thu, 22 Jun 95 09:55:48 EDT Received: from WAYNEST1 (NJE origin DKUIPER@WAYNEST1) by CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9589; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 09:56:25 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 09:17:31 EDT From: Doug Kuiper <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Written vs. Films, TV, etc. To: [log in to unmask] This discussion has a familiar ring, something I'm sure most of us have heard before. It goes like this: SF reader: "I believe SF literature worhty of intensive study, discussion, and attention." Traditional Literary Response: "We only discuss serious literature here, not that prattle." I think to dismiss an entire field of artistic endeavor as unworthy of even being on this list smacks of intellectual snobbery. Are many SF films poorly done, pandering to the worst facets of human nature? Yes. Perhaps that is worthy of discussion. Why is the fine written work of SF authors so poorly adapted to the screen? Notably, there are also exceptions to the BAM BOOM KILL of many SF films and programs. They have been mentioned numerous times in this thread. They are worthy of discussion as literature because they have, at one time, been written, and written well. Quite possibly, no media have the ability to reach as many people as TV and film. What a tremendous opportunity to concentrate on improving the quality of SF on TV and film, which would give millions of people a more accurate perception of the fantastic writing that occurs in this field daily. many millions of people a more accurate perception of the fantastic writing Above and beyond that, the delete key is F9 on my keyboard, it takes less than a second. -doug [log in to unmask] From cstu Thu Jun 22 14:27:10 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA47027; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 14:27:10 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 14:27:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Written vs. Films, TV, etc. (fwd) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 09:17:31 EDT From: Doug Kuiper <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Written vs. Films, TV, etc. This discussion has a familiar ring, something I'm sure most of us have heard before. It goes like this: SF reader: "I believe SF literature worhty of intensive study, discussion, and attention." Traditional Literary Response: "We only discuss serious literature here, not that prattle." I think to dismiss an entire field of artistic endeavor as unworthy of even being on this list smacks of intellectual snobbery. Are many SF films poorly done, pandering to the worst facets of human nature? Yes. Perhaps that is worthy of discussion. Why is the fine written work of SF authors so poorly adapted to the screen? Notably, there are also exceptions to the BAM BOOM KILL of many SF films and programs. They have been mentioned numerous times in this thread. They are worthy of discussion as literature because they have, at one time, been written, and written well. Quite possibly, no media have the ability to reach as many people as TV and film. What a tremendous opportunity to concentrate on improving the quality of SF on TV and film, which would give millions of people a more accurate perception of the fantastic writing that occurs in this field daily. many millions of people a more accurate perception of the fantastic writing Above and beyond that, the delete key is F9 on my keyboard, it takes less than a second. -doug [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 10:01:57 1995 Received: from indst.indstate.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA72914; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 10:01:57 -0400 Received: from root.indstate.edu by INDST.INDSTATE.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 22 Jun 95 09:03:54 EST Received: from ROOT/MERCURY by root.indstate.edu (Mercury 1.20); 22 Jun 95 09:02:03 GMT-5 Received: from MERCURY by ROOT (Mercury 1.20); 22 Jun 95 09:02:03 GMT-5 From: "EJUSERS" <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 09:01:58 EST Subject: Re: 19th Cent. SF Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Date sent: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 07:51:29 -0400 Send reply to: [log in to unmask] From: [log in to unmask] To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: 19th Cent. SF >Thanks J. Ronald. I am editing a text for high school students. Am >primarily looking for short stories. J. Meluch Bleiler's *Science-Fiction: The Early Years* is the best source for your purpose, since it presents summaries of some 3000 stories (novels, novelettes, short stories) published befor 1930. --R.D. Mullen <[log in to unmask]> From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 10:44:56 1995 Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA89253; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 10:44:56 -0400 Received: from uxa.liv.ac.uk by mail.liv.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 22 Jun 1995 15:43:51 +0100 From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: 19th Cent. SF To: [log in to unmask] Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 15:01:21 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "[log in to unmask]" at Jun 21, 95 02:15:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1180 In the last mail [log in to unmask] said: > > I am presently in the process of editing a collection of pre-twentieth > century SF to be used in high school classes. I will also be creating > learning activities to go with them. I have a list of 13 titles presently ( > Wells, Hawthorne, Poe, Bierce, Voltaire's Micromegas, E.T. A Hoffman, > Melville, Twain). > > Any suggestions re: other authors, titles. THANKS! > > John Meluch > Are you using extracts? Try Mary Shelley THE LAST MAN; Richard Jefferies, AFTER LONDON; Jack London; There's a good selection of discussions of precursors of SF in David Seed, ed. ANTICIPATIONS (Liverpool University Press) [Commercial break]: and if you can get hold of Sam Moskowitz, SCIENCE FICTION IN OLD SAN FRANCISCO vol 1 A HISTORY OF THE MOVEMENT FROM 1854 TO 1890 you should find some interesting ideas there. -- Andy Sawyer, Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK 0151-794-2733/2696 [log in to unmask] http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html "Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 11:40:50 1995 Received: from UICVM-ETH1.CC.UIC.EDU by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA94839; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 11:40:50 -0400 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Received: from UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU by UICVM.UIC.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4360; Thu, 22 Jun 95 10:40:15 CDT Received: from UICVM (NJE origin U28884@UICVM) by UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3874; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 10:40:15 -0500 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 10:34:51 CDT From: Laura Doyle <[log in to unmask]> Organization: UIC Library of the Health Sciences Subject: Re: SF thesaurus To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 21 Jun 1995 14:10:35 -0400 from <[log in to unmask]> I am thinking definitely of a thesaurus, since it was discussed originally as a resource for catalogers. But a thesaurus can be a very useful thing for many people. I'm definitely not thinking of a directory or catalogue -- that would imply listing of authors or works, I think. Maybe Classification. I also think that SF should be regarded as "Speculative Fiction" not purely science fiction, since I think fantasy & utopian lit should be considered as well. On Wed, 21 Jun 1995 14:10:35 -0400 <[log in to unmask]> said: >I have four thoughts on the creation of an SF Thesaurus: > >Is 'SF Thesaurus' the right name for this piece of work? SF Catalogue? SF >Directory? SF Classifications? Thesaurus seems to imply an source for >cross-referencing SF terminology. > >Consider using extended descriptions or definitions for each >heading/sub-heading as might be required. 'Light Fantasy', for instance, is >quite vague. 'Magic Conflict', however, is very concrete. Definitely include scope notes. > >How would the catalogue's format be changed if it were to include other SF >medias? Film, Stage, Poetry, Music and others, while not written, are still >valid SF genres. I don't think there is any reason to exclude other media -- in fact, have a category for media. But media shouldn't affect subject analysis. >How could such a catalogue be created to allow more access from a broader, >non-SF community. For instance, a child wanting to look up a story about a >friendly dragon? Or someone who wants to know more about the book behind the >movie 2001? (I know, a bit funny, and perhaps obvious, but it is late and I >couldn't come up with anything better.) This is what I mean when I say I don't think of it as a catalogue -- it would not be a catalog of books. There are sufficient indexes and bibliographies of all sorts, not to mention library catalogs. It should be a classification / thesaurus of sf concepts. These concept terms could then be used to catalog, organize and otherwise sort books so that children and adults could find books about friendly dragons or ball-throwing apes. Laura M. Doyle / [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask] "You don't call, you don't write, you don't send me flowers. You only forward email. Sigh." -- Beth Braswell, personal email, 2/21/95 From cstu Thu Jun 22 17:29:29 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA85865; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 17:29:29 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 17:29:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF thesaurus Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 10:34:51 CDT From: Laura Doyle <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: SF thesaurus I am thinking definitely of a thesaurus, since it was discussed originally as a resource for catalogers. But a thesaurus can be a very useful thing for many people. I'm definitely not thinking of a directory or catalogue -- that would imply listing of authors or works, I think. Maybe Classification. I also think that SF should be regarded as "Speculative Fiction" not purely science fiction, since I think fantasy & utopian lit should be considered as well. On Wed, 21 Jun 1995 14:10:35 -0400 <[log in to unmask]> said: >I have four thoughts on the creation of an SF Thesaurus: > >Is 'SF Thesaurus' the right name for this piece of work? SF Catalogue? SF >Directory? SF Classifications? Thesaurus seems to imply an source for >cross-referencing SF terminology. > >Consider using extended descriptions or definitions for each >heading/sub-heading as might be required. 'Light Fantasy', for instance, is >quite vague. 'Magic Conflict', however, is very concrete. Definitely include scope notes. > >How would the catalogue's format be changed if it were to include other SF >medias? Film, Stage, Poetry, Music and others, while not written, are still >valid SF genres. I don't think there is any reason to exclude other media -- in fact, have a category for media. But media shouldn't affect subject analysis. >How could such a catalogue be created to allow more access from a broader, >non-SF community. For instance, a child wanting to look up a story about a >friendly dragon? Or someone who wants to know more about the book behind the >movie 2001? (I know, a bit funny, and perhaps obvious, but it is late and I >couldn't come up with anything better.) This is what I mean when I say I don't think of it as a catalogue -- it would not be a catalog of books. There are sufficient indexes and bibliographies of all sorts, not to mention library catalogs. It should be a classification / thesaurus of sf concepts. These concept terms could then be used to catalog, organize and otherwise sort books so that children and adults could find books about friendly dragons or ball-throwing apes. Laura M. Doyle / [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask] "You don't call, you don't write, you don't send me flowers. You only forward email. Sigh." -- Beth Braswell, personal email, 2/21/95 From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 11:51:34 1995 Received: from raven.benedictine.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA76166; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 11:51:34 -0400 Received: from gnicholas.benedictine.edu by raven.benedictine.edu with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA02535; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 10:56:05 -0500 Message-Id: <v01510100ac0f3ead6f75@[198.248.38.28]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 10:53:31 -0500 To: [log in to unmask] From: [log in to unmask] (George Nicholas) Subject: 19th century sf De Bergerac has been suggested several times here. A wonderful book, but given the current aggressiveness of the religious right in the U.S.A., I wonder whether the part about lunar men wearing their penises outside their pants and keeping their swords hidden (that is, valuing life but being ashamed of death) would go over in a high school class. I can hear the vulture wings of Ralph Reed swooping in for the kill. The grandaddy of all fiction in this line is Lucian's _True History_, a wonderful travel satire written in the 2nd century A.D. There's considerable scatological and sexual humor in it, as I recall, which means it'll be ridiculously easy to get high school students to read it. Simply forbid them to do so. Finally, question for the librarians among us. Isn't there a text series devoted to publishing 19th century sf? I seem to recall green bindings. . . . Garland Press, maybe it was. George E. Nicholas [log in to unmask] English Department (913)367-5340 xt. 2572 Benedictine College Atchison KS 66002 From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 12:06:04 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA29498; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 12:06:04 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA091247163; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 12:06:03 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 12:06:03 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: fantasy genres/Betty Rose... >Back when I was a member of the Mythopoeic Society, someone came up with >the idea that there are three types of fantasy, each exemplified by the >Three Authors that the society centered on: >J. R. R. Tolkien - Completely alternate universe; cf. Steven Brust. >C. S. Lewis - Modern humans go to alternate universe; cf. Stephen R. >Donaldson (Covenant) >Charles Williams - Alternate universe breaks in on modern world; cf. >"Urban fantasy" What about situations when humans from our universe create the new universe (SImak: "The Goblin Reservation" can be used as an example, although not very accurate) From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 12:12:23 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA89292; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 12:12:23 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA174137542; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 12:12:22 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 12:12:22 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF in Other Media (was: o... >You know my vote. Anyone want to say anything about interactive media? > I seem to recall a Niven quote (off the box, I think) regarding the >Ringworld computer game, something like "I always felt that the next >Ringworld novel should be interactive..." I haven't read ANY of the Ringworld novels.... :-( Shame on me. As to the interactive media: SF and fantasy were there for about 5 years now. Most of the quest-type games and AD&Ds (I am talking about good ones, not the bash-them-up types) have an excellent storyline, and some of them have parallel branching storylines. Take Monkey Island or Betrayal at Krondor... From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 12:10:19 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA65326; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 12:10:19 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 17:09:38 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 22 Jun 95 17:09:36 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: CLARKEAN MAGIC Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 17:07:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 25 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>: >In the last mail BOB S. said: >> >> I believe it was Arthur C. Clarke who wrote something like "any sufficiently >> advance technology will appear to be magic." Does anyone know the actual >> quotation and the source? Thanks in advance. >> > >"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic' >Clarke's Third Law (PROFILES OF THE FUTURE, Gollancz 1974 P.39) I'm confused now (well, again...). I just had a chance to snap a quick look at Report on Planet Three. I didn't find the quote, though I do still suspect it's in there somewhere. However, I think it said it was published in 1972 or 1973. Curiously, if that's the case, it DOES contain a plug for "my book, "Profiles of the Future"". How come, if that was 1974? Answer - 1974 wasn't the first edition, presumably, in which case the quote is older still. Or I'm wrong about the date of Report..., in which case I'm wasting everyone's time again... Dave From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 12:21:56 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA13242; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 12:21:56 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA198608115; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 12:21:55 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 12:21:55 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Written vs. films, TV etc. And what about The Twilight Zone ? Contrary to what many people think, it is not just another ghost-story type of a show, the episodes actually have a meaning... IMHO, it is an integral part of all the SF and fantasy genre. From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 15:55:01 1995 Received: from bos1h.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA46687; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 15:55:01 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 15:54:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 15:54:59 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: 19th Cent. SF To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Someone, I think it was probably Sam Moskowitz, edited an anthology of 19th century sf called SCIENCE FICTION BY GASLIGHT. I would think there might be a dozen as-yet-unmentioned names in there. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 16:07:24 1995 Received: from bos1h.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA82320; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 16:07:24 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 16:07:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 16:07:23 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc. (fwd) To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT No one is dismissing films and tv as being unworthy of study or interest. I have a limited amount of time to spend online. I will pick and choose what interests me, and I won't be forced, bullied, or shamed into reading about subjects that don't interest me. I write science fiction for a living. It's only natural that written sf should appeal to me more than TV, which I don't write at all, or movies, which I occasionally write and which every producer I've worked with has explained to me must be "dumbed down" to a maximum of a 10-year-old level. I contribute, as best I can, to the written sf messages here. I am not suggesting anyone else delete TV and movie messages. It's up to them, just as my decision to do so is up to me. That said, I will freely admit that Roddenbury and Lucas have had an enormous effect on science fiction. Where I work, it is appearent primarily in endless Trekbooks and Wookiebooks that have virtually killed the midlist and kept dozens of promising young writers off the racks. If anyone would like to argue that this has been good for the field, I'll be happy to oblige. -- Mike Resnick From eaj Thu Jun 22 16:59:00 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA61528; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 16:59:00 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 16:59:00 -0400 (EDT) From: "Eric A. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: ATTENTION NON-US/CANADA/UK SF-LIT SUBSCRIBERS Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII As the Library of Congress' Recommeding Officer for Science Fiction, I am supposed to insure that LC has a good collection of non-US/CANADIAN/UK science fiction--especially award winning titles. As we have limited funds to purchase foreign SF, I am trying to acquire at least some of this material on exchange. In order to start this exchange process, I have prepared two exchange offer lists of LC's SF duplicates (approximately 500 titles). If you think that you might be interested in setting up an SF exchange with LC, please email me directly ([log in to unmask]) and let me know. And please send me your snail mail address so that I can send you the offer lists. LC already has some good exchanges set up with science fiction clubs in Ukraine, Germany, Russia, and elsewhere. PLEASE NOTE that LC is only interested in acquiring ORIGINAL SF published in your language. We are NOT interested in acquiring US/CANADIAN/UK SF that has been translated from English (and possibly French) into your native language. Potential partners in Australia/New Zealand are welcome to contact me if you can supply your local homegrown SF as opposed to reprints of US/CANADIAN/UK SF titles. Anyone in the US, Canada, or UK who happens to read this message and is interested, I'm sorry but this exchange offer does NOT apply to you since LC is supposed to acquire SF published in the US/CANADA/UK more or less automatically. Thanks for your attention. EAJ *-------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Eric A. Johnson | *OPINIONS MINE* | | Senior Exchange Specialist (Baltics & CIS) | | | & Recommending Officer for Science Fiction | Voice: (202) 707-9498 | | Exchange & Gift Division (COLL/E&G/EES) | FAX: (202) 707-2086 | | Library of Congress, LM 632 | Email: [log in to unmask] | | Washington, DC 20540-4240 USA | | *-------------------------------------------------------------------------* "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Philip K. Dick, 1928-1982 From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 18:38:38 1995 Received: from IS.Dal.Ca by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA61074; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 18:38:38 -0400 Received: by is.dal.ca (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA73205; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 19:39:46 -0300 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 19:39:46 -0300 (ADT) From: Patricia Monk <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: CLARKEAN MAGIC To: [log in to unmask] In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Davde If I was part of the confusion, I apologize. I thought you just needed _a_ citation, not the _first_ citation. I don't know whether this will help or not, but I also have a copy of the first Bantam paperback edition, published in 1964 ( a reprint of the 1963 Harper and Row edition), and the footnote with the discussion of the third law does not appear in that. So you don't have to go back further than that. Now if you could identify the particular French edition he refers to in the footnote, that would cut down the search area even further. ;-) ***************************************************************** patricia monk (dr) [log in to unmask] "just visiting this planet" ***************************************************************** On Thu, 22 Jun 1995, D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple wrote: > I'm confused now (well, again...). I just had a chance to snap a quick look > at Report on Planet Three. I didn't find the quote, though I do still > suspect it's in there somewhere. However, I think it said it was published > in 1972 or 1973. Curiously, if that's the case, it DOES contain a plug for > "my book, "Profiles of the Future"". How come, if that was 1974? Answer - > 1974 wasn't the first edition, presumably, in which case the quote is older > still. Or I'm wrong about the date of Report..., in which case I'm wasting > everyone's time again... > Dave > From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 18:58:25 1995 Received: from gilbert.ucc.hull.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA59934; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 18:58:25 -0400 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Received: from humus.ucc.hull.ac.uk (actually host adelphi-le0.ucc.hull.ac.uk) by gilbert.ucc.hull.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 22 Jun 1995 23:58:07 +0100 Received: from humus.computer-centre.hull.ac.uk by humus.computer-centre.hull.ac.uk id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 23:58:10 +0100 Subject: Profiles of er, when was that? To: [log in to unmask] Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 23:58:09 +0100 (BST) From: Andy Butler <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" at Jun 22, 95 06:12:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2054 Sender: [log in to unmask] > "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>: > {Snip!} > (PROFILES OF THE FUTURE, Gollancz 1974 P.39) > [Dave:] > > I'm confused now (well, again...). I just had a chance to snap a quick look > at Report on Planet Three. I didn't find the quote, though I do still > suspect it's in there somewhere. However, I think it said it was published > in 1972 or 1973. Curiously, if that's the case, it DOES contain a plug for > "my book, "Profiles of the Future"". How come, if that was 1974? Answer - > 1974 wasn't the first edition, presumably, in which case the quote is older > still. Or I'm wrong about the date of Report..., in which case I'm wasting > everyone's time again... > > Dave > My (Corgi SF Collectors Library) edition of Planet 3 is dated 1973 (actually a 75 reprint) with a Gollancz edition noted in 1972. The intro, date January 1971, mentions Profiles of the Future (1963) and Voices From the Sky (1965). My Pan edition of Profiles is a second edition 1973 (and copyrighted then, + 1962) with mention of a 1964 Pan edition, with an earlier Gollancz (1962 [sic]) edition. Presumably Andy Sawyer quoted from a Gollancz hardback of the second edition. The Third Law (on magic) is mentioned in a footnote on p 39, having referred to the French edition of Profiles. Clarke says "[I] have also formulated a Third", with the implication that this would postdate the second, which was published in 1962 (in Profiles) but not designated as a law until the French edition. I believe I cited it last night as being in 1969 in the New Yorker, otherwise it appears to have been formulated between 1962 and 1972. Could it have been in Voices? When was Lost Worlds of 2001? Does this help, Dave? Is the message even getting through? (technology is indistinguishable from, well, a useless lump of metal) Cheers Andy Butler English Department University of Hull Hull UK [log in to unmask] "We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?" From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 18:59:08 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA59956; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 18:59:08 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA050951763; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 18:56:03 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 18:56:03 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Mostly Harmless Oh, Mostly Harmless wasn't good, but it wasn't very bad either (maybe only in comparison). But I was wondering, Adams' endings/resolutions, that I can think of, seldom made too much sense to me. Do others have the same problem? (Off hand, I think of the Dirk Gently books, RATEOTU, and MH, but its been a while since I've read them.) Sean D. [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 21:33:09 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA51542; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 21:33:09 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA015551188; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 21:33:08 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 21:33:08 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The Medium's the Thing I find myself mostly agreeing with Mike Resnick and the other "SF&F in literature preferred" cadre. However, as all too many people read only as much as they have to, opting to have their entertainment and non-job-related information spoon fed to them through the idiot box and overpriced cinema, how else to reach them? SF&F, unlike horror {which, when lumped together with SF&F, I find, well, horrifying} that appeals to the reptilian sense of fear in us, beckons our highest aspirations. Serious frontal lobe fodder. This is the area of that vast under- developed resource, sometimes referred to as the human mind, that must be stimulated. Not just in the pre- disposed {that includes folks like us, but you already knew that because you are here} but in the public as a whole. Consider this: How could the best story you've ever read possibly be made better? One answer {mine} is to see it actually come to pass. And while the plausibility of this ideal embraces only a small fraction of the speculative fiction written, IMHO it's a handful worth the price. I will put up with almost any number of SF&F bad ideas, poor adoptions, sell-outs, over-writtens, under-writtens, characterization-ignoreds, and, of course, the just plain ludicrous on TV and in film if it will result in at least one great inspiration for the public to experience. Afterall, it is they who rule the court of "public option", and upon that which the political powers that be act {i.e. very soon space stations will no longer just be a place where Heywood Floyd stopped off to call his daughter and chat with some Russians before heading off to check out that odd thing they dug up on the moon.} -Phil "Not Ashamed to Have Used My VCR" Rosen From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 22:21:36 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA06817; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 22:21:36 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA264904096; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 22:21:36 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 22:21:36 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: 19th Cent. SF Asimov also, I believe, edited a 19th cenury Sci Fi anthology. I haven't read it, but he had some interesting stories in a similar volume of Fantasy. Sean D. [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 22:21:37 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA67494; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 22:21:37 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA029734096; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 22:21:36 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 22:21:36 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, et... Yes, film and TV have had tremendous effects (affects? never remember the difference) on sci fi. However, very little (almost none) of it I consider good art. SF film and TV (and maybe there is excellent work in less mainstream markets being done that I am not aware of) is quite flawed. Until it reaches the level of art that some writing has achieved, I feel it is mainly relevant in its relation to better quality work. Sean D. [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 23:04:09 1995 Received: from ns.cityscape.co.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA82469; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 23:04:09 -0400 Received: from cityscape.co.uk (ac052.du.pipex.com [193.130.242.52]) by ns.cityscape.co.uk (8.6.4/8.6.4) with SMTP id EAA15442 for <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 04:02:35 +0100 From: [log in to unmask] (Chris Terran) To: [log in to unmask] Subject: SF Sites in the UK Reply-To: [log in to unmask] Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 03:36:51 +0100 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Organization: BSFA X-Mailer: Archimedes TTFN Version 0.36 I've just joined SF-LIT and read through the 1.3 Mb of May contributions, and want to extend a warm delurking hello to all . . . . As an introduction, I edit _Matrix_, the news zine of the British Science Fiction Association. As is well known -- at least to writers -- all editors are ignorant fools, so I hope you can help me overcome my disabilities by responding to the following plea. I'm currently compiling a list of locations in the UK with a significant sf or fantasy connection, and any suggestions would be very welcome. This is for a poster / map / directory that the BSFA is hoping to produce. All contributions will be credited, of course. I'm after both real places -- Minehead is the birthplace of Arthur C. Clarke, for instance -- and imaginary -- perhaps the 'actual' location of Mythago Wood. Particularly interesting would be locations used in childrens' sf / fantasy, and sites in odd corners of these islands. Here are a few to get you thinking: Corfe Castle (Keith Roberts's _Pavane_) Aller, Somerset ('Alder' in Kim Newman's _Jago_) Manchester (Jeff Noon, _Vurt_) Sark (Mervyn Peake, _Mr Pye_) Dorset (Chris Priest, _A Dream of Wessex_; Richard Cowper 'Kinship' novels) Thanks . . . . -- Chris Terran ******************************************* Email: [log in to unmask] * Editor, 'Matrix' - The news magazine of * Voice: 0113 278 2388 * The British Science Fiction Association * Opinions mine ... mine, all mine! ******************************************* From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 23:13:02 1995 Received: from owlnet.rice.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA57134; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 23:13:02 -0400 Received: from great-gray.owlnet.rice.edu by owlnet.rice.edu (WAA29596); Thu, 22 Jun 1995 22:13:02 -0500 Received: by great-gray.owlnet.rice.edu (8.6.12/Rice Client-1.0) id WAA21544; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 22:13:00 -0500 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 22:12:59 -0500 (CDT) From: "John J. Ronald" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Twighlight Zone To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 22 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > And what about The Twilight Zone ? > Contrary to what many people think, it is not just another ghost-story type > of a show, the episodes actually have a meaning... IMHO, it is an integral > part of all the SF and fantasy genre. I *love* the Twighlight Zone! Old stuff, and the newer episodes.. (never saw the movie, though)...I also miss the tv-spinoff of Amazing Stories that Spielberg did awhile back...those were great, too...Lots of very cool (and often, very twisted) extrapolation-thinking goes into those episodes....yes, this "extrapolation-engine" that drives The Twighlight Zone also drives SF as well. Good point, good point. *high five* --John Ronald Rice University From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 23:58:37 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA73586; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 23:58:37 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA186679916; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 23:58:36 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 23:58:36 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: ClassificationScheme MBowman, I would be willing to xlate the scheme to electronic medium, but I would appreciate a little advice on how to distribute it efficiently. Thanks. SMail addr: 13978 Arnold, Redford MI 48239 USA Bob Pesavento [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 23:58:50 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA84866; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 23:58:50 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA187409930; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 23:58:50 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 23:58:50 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Television, gotta love it! I read it. From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 23:59:04 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA27023; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 23:59:04 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA042269943; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 23:59:03 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 23:59:03 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Written vs. films, TV etc. This is a good point in general, but I specifically disagree with you about 2001. The movie is slow-paced, often corny(especially in the part with the guys in ape suits who are supposed to be early humans and look more like mutated chimps), and in some ways behind its time. The only good parts are those involving HAL. From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 22 23:59:42 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA44950; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 23:59:42 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA279619982; Thu, 22 Jun 1995 23:59:42 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 23:59:42 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner How does everyone feel about Bladerunner? It has some good points, and great sets and acting, but the voice-over is corny(even from Harrison Ford), and the plot is rather bare-bones in nature. This is a bit off the subject, but do you think that it would be possible and feasible to depict netrunning(computer theft a la William Gibson) on the big screen? That is one of my favorite cyberpunk elements. From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 00:24:41 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA44904; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 00:24:41 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA100671296; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 00:21:36 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 00:21:36 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF thesaurus-Difference between SF and Fantasy I really wish people would stop grouping SF into ht efantasy category, and vice versa. There is a *big* difference. SF takes place in a world more technologically advanced than our own. It is often, but not always, a projection of our own future. Some of the main categories include Space Opera(romantic SF such as Star Wars) and cyberpunk(typified by Gibson's gritty novels). Fantasy, on the other hand, takes place in a world less technologically advanced than our own. It has its roots in medieval culture, and epics such as beowulf. the classic examples are Lord of the Rings, which is epic high fantasy, and the Conan stories, on a swords-and-sorcery level. From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 02:07:03 1995 Received: from ccc-infonet.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA37292; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 02:07:03 -0400 Received: by ccc-infonet.edu id 0WFOD008 Thu, 22 Jun 95 23:05:19 -700 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Organization: CCC-InfoNet, Modesto, California (209) 577-3081 X-Mailer: TBBS/PIMP v3.25 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 23:05:19 -700 Subject: CLARKEAN MAGIC To: [log in to unmask] I believe it was Arthur C. Clarke who wrote something like "any sufficiently advance technology will appear to be magic." Does anyone know the actual quotation and the source? Thanks in advance. *************************************************************************** I believe that was a quote from the character Richard Wakefield, probably from Rama II originally, although he made similar statements in the later two books of the series. From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 05:41:45 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA85431; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 05:41:45 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 10:41:36 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 23 Jun 95 10:41:32 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc. (fwd) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 10:39:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 49 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Mike Resnick: >No one is dismissing films and tv as being unworthy of study or interest. >I have a limited amount of time to spend online. I will pick and choose >what interests me, and I won't be forced, bullied, or shamed into reading >about subjects that don't interest me. I hope that my suggestions, at least, don't come across as insistences that everyone participate in discussions in which they aren't interested. Certainly I had no intention of doing any of that. I think you're mistaken, though, about the idea that no one dismisses media outside print. Personally I usually prefer reading to watching, but I can't handle the idea, which I often come across, that any "written" (sic) SF is, by its nature, somehow superior (by some standard or other) to anything that anyone's ever filmed. On the other hand, it is depressingly easy to point out examples of film/TV SF that drag the whole genre down to enormous and inexplicably popular depths. I bet more people saw StarGate than Shadowlands, and thought that it was great. It's hard to understand why, but I do suspect that a crap SF film was more popular than a sensitive and beautiful "realistic"/biographical one. >I write science fiction for a living. It's only natural that written sf >should appeal to me more than TV, which I don't write at all, or movies, >which I occasionally write and which every producer I've worked with >has explained to me must be "dumbed down" to a maximum of a 10-year-old >level. I can believe that. It isn't too hard to come up with counterexamples, but their comparative scarcity really just underlines the point. >That said, I will freely admit that Roddenbury and Lucas have had >an enormous effect on science fiction. Where I work, it is appearent >primarily in endless Trekbooks and Wookiebooks that have virtually >killed the midlist and kept dozens of promising young writers off the >racks. If anyone would like to argue that this has been good for the >field, I'll be happy to oblige. I'd like to know more about this. (I'm afraid I don't know what "the midlist" is, even.) All the same, as far as I can remember it my main point earlier was simply to say that this kind of influence IS modern SF, in a meaningful way. Maybe it shouldn't be, for all sorts of reasons. Depressing, in any case, though, isn't it? Dave From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 05:52:20 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA85342; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 05:52:20 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 10:52:05 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 23 Jun 95 10:52:00 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: CLARKEAN MAGIC Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 10:51:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 24 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Patricia Monk <[log in to unmask]>: >If I was part of the confusion, I apologize. I thought you just needed >_a_ citation, not the _first_ citation. I don't know whether this will help >or not, but I also have a copy of the first Bantam paperback edition, >published in 1964 ( a reprint of the 1963 Harper and Row edition), and >the footnote with the discussion of the third law does not appear in >that. So you don't have to go back further than that. Now if you could >identify the particular French edition he refers to in the footnote, that >would cut down the search area even further. ;-) The confusion is all of my making, I fear. For one thing, the request for the ref. that started this off was not mine so I'm probably just muddying the waters. I don't know, in fact, whether the origin is required or whether any page reference will do. Still, it seemed interesting that the quote could be attributed to OMNI, 1980, when it seemed to several people that it must be substantially older than that. My ignorance extends to the point where I have now become entirely lost, however. Are you talking about a 1963/4 edition of Report..., or Profiles..., or what?! Maybe you shouldn't answer that... Dave From cstu Fri Jun 23 07:41:22 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA22994; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 07:41:22 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 07:41:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: SF thesaurus-Difference between SF and Fantasy In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I must disagree with the statement below because I have read fiction that contains both these elements and I find the definitions too limiting. For a book that uses both elements, I cite Julian May's Pliocene series, which has advanced technology and magic. Okay, if you believe in PSI, maybe you do not see it as magic, but it has fantasy elements to my mind. To say these genre are easily dissernable and easily classified just does not ring true with what I have read. Colleen _________________________________________________________________________ Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian [log in to unmask] Library of Congress (202) 707-4132 Washington, DC 20540-4861 FAX: (202) 707-4142 These opinions are mine, Mine MINE! __________________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 23 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > I really wish people would stop grouping SF into ht efantasy category, and > vice versa. There is a *big* difference. SF takes place in a world more > technologically advanced than our own. It is often, but not always, a > projection of our own future. Some of the main categories include Space > Opera(romantic SF such as Star Wars) and cyberpunk(typified by Gibson's > gritty novels). Fantasy, on the other hand, takes place in a world less > technologically advanced than our own. It has its roots in medieval culture, > and epics such as beowulf. the classic examples are Lord of the Rings, which > is epic high fantasy, and the Conan stories, on a swords-and-sorcery level. > From cstu Fri Jun 23 07:41:22 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA22994; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 07:41:22 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 07:41:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: SF thesaurus-Difference between SF and Fantasy In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I must disagree with the statement below because I have read fiction that contains both these elements and I find the definitions too limiting. For a book that uses both elements, I cite Julian May's Pliocene series, which has advanced technology and magic. Okay, if you believe in PSI, maybe you do not see it as magic, but it has fantasy elements to my mind. To say these genre are easily dissernable and easily classified just does not ring true with what I have read. Colleen _________________________________________________________________________ Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian [log in to unmask] Library of Congress (202) 707-4132 Washington, DC 20540-4861 FAX: (202) 707-4142 These opinions are mine, Mine MINE! __________________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 23 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > I really wish people would stop grouping SF into ht efantasy category, and > vice versa. There is a *big* difference. SF takes place in a world more > technologically advanced than our own. It is often, but not always, a > projection of our own future. Some of the main categories include Space > Opera(romantic SF such as Star Wars) and cyberpunk(typified by Gibson's > gritty novels). Fantasy, on the other hand, takes place in a world less > technologically advanced than our own. It has its roots in medieval culture, > and epics such as beowulf. the classic examples are Lord of the Rings, which > is epic high fantasy, and the Conan stories, on a swords-and-sorcery level. > From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 07:30:15 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA72392; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 07:30:15 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:30:04 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 23 Jun 95 12:30:00 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, et... Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 12:28:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 21 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 >Yes, film and TV have had tremendous effects (affects? never remember the >difference) on sci fi. However, very little (almost none) of it I consider >good art. SF film and TV (and maybe there is excellent work in less >mainstream markets being done that I am not aware of) is quite flawed. Until >it reaches the level of art that some writing has achieved, I feel it is >mainly relevant in its relation to better quality work. This is a sensible improvement on my repeated failures to express the idea properly. Some of the stuff is good; most of it is rubbish; all the same, there is so MUCH of it that we'd be foolish to ignore it and its huge influence. If we're interested in that side of things, that is. A literary perspective need not be limited to the opportunity to express approval for stuff we like. There's a good case to be made for the idea that you can't do that credibly in any case without putting that stuff in the context of the surrounding (often popular) rubbish. Dave From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 07:36:34 1995 Received: from vm1.cc.uakron.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA11280; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 07:36:34 -0400 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Received: from VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU by VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8567; Fri, 23 Jun 95 07:35:01 EDT Received: from AKRONVM (NJE origin R3SAW1@AKRONVM) by VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8262; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 07:35:01 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 07:33:49 EDT From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF Sites in the UK To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 23 Jun 1995 06:59:49 -0400 from <[log in to unmask]> Hi CHRIS! WhataboutTales from the White Hart by Clarke? I realize this may not apply, tho. - Sean - From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 07:42:04 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA61155; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 07:42:04 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:41:53 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 23 Jun 95 12:41:49 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Written vs. films, TV etc. Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 12:40:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 27 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 >This is a good point in general, but I specifically disagree with you about >2001. The movie is slow-paced, often corny(especially in the part with the >guys in ape suits who are supposed to be early humans and look more like >mutated chimps), and in some ways behind its time. The only good parts are >those involving HAL. Let me get this right - the award-winning (it was, wasn't it?) makeup stuff with the apes was terrible, but the talking computer that has a type of consciousness that can be caused to "regress" (towards what, for God's sake?) was triffic. The idea that certain types of computer are capable of trying to process conflicting instructions is interesting and was obviously important to the film's plot, but surely it isn't central to the Sentinel-type core story of what it's like to discover that you're being watched. In fact I've always thought the bits with HAL were some of the less well-explained bits of the film. The bit with the apes, on the other hand, is one of those sections which is absolutely crucial to the alien involvement in human history. Then again, it must be admitted that it is very, well, "leisurely" paced...! Until the last five minutes. I presume that this was intentional, since the end is clearly meant to be disorientating. It isn't always a comfortable shift, though. Dave From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 07:45:08 1995 Received: from risc-ns.cics.uniroma1.it by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA90788; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 07:45:08 -0400 Received: from rmcisadu.cisadu.uniroma1.it by risc-ns.cics.uniroma1.it (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA15248; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 13:42:35 +0200 Subject: Italian SF To: [log in to unmask] Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 13:41:21 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 6845 From: "fabriani lanfranco (sistemista) 4991-3936" <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Following two or three pressing requests by E. A. Johnson, I send to SF-LIT this list of novels and anthologies in italian language History: The Science fiction appears in Italy in April 1952 on the pages of the magazine "Scienza Fantastica" and in October on the magazine "I Romanzi di Urania" that publishes translations of works by authors in english language. Only in 1957, the magazine "Oltre il cielo" begins to publish regularly italian authors, and it trys to establish a strong group of writers, someone still active. For an historycal background you can read: CURTONI Vittorio Le frontiere dell'ignoto. Venti anni di fantascienza italiana. Nord Today: The SF book market in Italy is little, and is formed basically by translations of works written in english language; just two or three italian novel are published usually every year, generally by little publishers. Prizes: The "Premio Italia" (Award Italy) is awarded by majority vote of a vast giury of members of the World SF Italy and fans during the annual convention of the fandom. This list: The list includes only the works that are easy to find. I haven't included some important novels, by this time out ot press. ====================== cut here ============================== ALDANI Lino Parabole per domani 1987 Solfanelli La Croce di ghiaccio 1989 Perseo Libri Aldani Lino : MALAGUTI Ugo Pianeta Italia 1989 Perseo Libri (Anthology of writers members of World SF Italia) ALDANI Lino : PIEGAI Daniela Nel Segno della luna bianca 1985 Nord ALTOMARE Donato La risata di Dio 1989 Solfanelli ARESI Paolo Oberon l'avamposto tra i ghiacci 1987 Nord BONSI Giovanna La Brigata dell'apocalisse 1992 Nord BRERA Paolo Dagmar la terrestre 1992 Perseo Libri CARACCIOLO Pietro Nel segno del serpente 1991 Nord CASTELLO Giancarlo Motore d'anime 1991 Perseo Libri CATANI Vittorio Gli Universi di Moras 1990 Mondadori Urania (Premio Urania 1990) CERRINO Mariangela L'Ultima terra oscura 1989 Nord I Cieli dimenticati 1992 Longanesi Milano La via degli dei Longanesi Milano DE TURRIS Gianfranco L'altro volto della Luna Solfanelli (Anthology) EVANGELISTI Valerio Nicolas Eymeric, Inquisitore (Premio Urania 1994) 1994 Mondadori FASSIO Angela P. Il segreto del sigillo Nord Il segno dello sparviero Nord FILASTO' Nino La Proposta 1992 Thea Due (Longanesi) (Premio Italia 1985) FORTE Franco Gli Eretici di Zlatos 1990 Nord GRASSO Francesco Ai due lati del muro (Premio Urania 1992) 1992 Mondadori MALAGUTI Ugo Storie d'ordinario infinito Perseo Libri (Anthology) MARAFANTE Virginio L'Insidia dei Kryan 1979 Nord (Premio Italia 1980) Luna di fuoco 1991 Mondadori Urania MENGHINI Luigi Il Regno della nube 1979 Nord (Premio Italia 1980) Reazione a catena 1977 Nord (Premio Italia 1978) Iseneg! 1990 Nord Il mio amico Stone 1986 Nord L'assedio 1981 Nord (Premio Italia 1981) PENSANTE Marco Il Sole non tramonta 1986 Nord PESTRINIERO Renato Il Nido al di la' dell'ombra 1986 Solfanelli Sette accadimenti in Venezia 1986 Solfanelli Le Torri dell'Eden 1983 Fanucci PIEGAI Daniela Parola di alieno 1978 Nord (Premio Italia 1979) Ballata per Lima 1980 Nord (Premio Italia 1981) PROSPERI Pierfrancesco Garibaldi a Gettysburg (Premio Italia 1994) 1993 Nord RAMPINI Mariano Saghe di un mondo perduto Fanucci Roma SCAGNOLI Riccardo L'ultima frontiera 1980 Nord TAMAGNI Francesco In quattro su Negramorte Perseo Libri VALLORANI Nicoletta Il Cuore finto di DR 1993 Mondadori ZUDDAS Gianluigi Balthis l'avventuriera 1983 Nord (Premio Italia 1983) Il volo dell'angelo 1985 Nord Le amazzoni del sud 1983 Fanucci La stella di Gondwana 1983 Fanucci Le armi della lupa 1989 Solfanelli publishers: Nord = Casa Editrice Nord via Rubens, 25 20148 Milano Italia fax 039 - 2 - 40.42.207 Mondandori = Urania (magazine published every other week) Arnoldo Mondadori Editore 20090 Segrate (Mi) Italia Cas Post 1833, Milano tel 039 - 2 - 52.72.008 Solfanelli = Marino Solfanelli Editore C.P. 126 66100 Chieti Italia Tel 039 - 871 - 33.00.33 Fanucci = Fanucci Editore via Pio Foa' 55 00152 Roma Italia Perseo Libri = Perseo Libri Casella postale 1240 40100 Bologna Italia ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lanfranco Fabriani (system administrator) Universita' degli Studi di Roma "La Sapienza" C.I.S.A.D.U. P.le Aldo Moro 5 00185 Roma Italy [log in to unmask] 039-6-4991.3936 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 08:02:41 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA94628; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 08:02:41 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 13:01:44 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 23 Jun 95 13:01:40 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 13:00:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 47 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 >How does everyone feel about Bladerunner? It has some good points, and great >sets and acting, but the voice-over is corny(even from Harrison Ford), and >the plot is rather bare-bones in nature. The voiceover has been a contentious thing for ever. I've certainly heard all sorts of rumours insisting on the one hand that it was imposed and added as a nasty fix and everyone hated it (along with the happy ending, which surely is the big, jarring and difficult to explain inconsistency), or, on the other that it was /always/ meant to be there and everyone's got the whole thing out of all proportion. Personally I quite liked it when the thing came out. When it became a big issue I got all confused. Much of the opposition to it seems to be stimulated by the idea that it was a crap addition. I don't believe that it can have been exactly that. For instance the introductory scene ("sushi" etc) not only makes more (ie some) sense with the voiceover but seems all empty and unbalanced without it. Seems to me it must have been written into that scene and others from the outset. Some disagree. But the style, the /style/.... >This is a bit off the subject, but do you think that it would be possible and >feasible to depict netrunning(computer theft a la William Gibson) on the big >screen? That is one of my favorite cyberpunk elements. Unless I've misread the reviews again, this has just been done in Johnny Mnemonic. Generally the reaction seems negative. Then again this is partly because all the reaction I've seen to the film as a whole is negative anyway. A number of people are complaining that the film has bastardised Gibson's original story and simultaneously prostituted his vision of the future in general and "cyberspace" in particular. One thing that gets raised in this context is a scene where Johnny is apparently using some kind of VR-type interface to break in and do something or other on the net. Some of the less imaginative objections are based on the idea that cyberspace doesn't look right... Anyway, it seems it has been done and some people don't like it. It's worth bearing in mind, if seeing this, that Gibson was apparently intimately associated with all elements of its making, and also that they were kind of forced to make the 30-million-dollar glitzy film they made rather than the 1 1/2-million-dollar film noir they initially wanted to do. In general the consensus seems to be that the Sprawl was not translated well from page to screen. Dave From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 09:03:14 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23035; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 09:03:14 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA298472593; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 09:03:14 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 09:03:14 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner Always thought Bladerunner great. Hope the sequeal is half as good. Bladerunner is one of the few films expandeded and put onto disk. Never ran across it or had a chance to view. Anyone have the opportunity? From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 09:47:40 1995 Received: from gate.bmgmusic.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA75049; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 09:47:40 -0400 Received: from in1vines.bmgmusic.com by gate.bmgmusic.com with SMTP id AA09230 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for <[log in to unmask]>); Fri, 23 Jun 1995 08:47:33 -0500 Received: by IN1VINES.bmgmusic.com; Fri, 23 Jun 95 9:52:42 EDT Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 9:35:59 EDT Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] Subject: SF vs. Fantasy About the difference between SF & Fantasy (and the poster who's annoyed that the two are so often conflated): SF is not necessarily set in a future world, or a technologically superior one. Alternate Histories are SF, and most of them don't feature superior technology. The definition of SF that I like (because it's broad enough to cover everything we generally agree is SF) is that SF is literature dealing with a world differing from our own in a way that can be (or explicitly is) explained scientifically. Fantasy is a closely related genre (or the larger category of which SF is a subgenre, if you prefer) in which the fictional world is different from our own in a way which is explained non- scientifically. The obvious argument or problem is in defining 'scientific,' which I won't attempt to do. But you can see how closely related the two fields are at their core; both are in opposition to mainstream realistic fiction. The fact that one has spaceships and the other unicorns may be of supreme importance to the hard SF purist who detests unicorns, but the critical strategies of examining the two fields are very similar. For a second reason, they are basically the same marketing category because it's basically the same audience that buys both genres. Most SF readers also read fantasy, and vice versa, at least on occasion. And authors are also very likely to cross the 'boundaries,' or write works that draw on the traditions of both fields. Trying to examine one while ignoring the other gives a distorted view of things (as does the other common strategy of ignoring all proto-SF and pretending the idea sprang full-grown from the brow of Hugo Gernsback), and that's why it's bad. Andy Wheeler From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 09:49:22 1995 Received: from ibm2.loc.gov by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA48238; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 09:49:22 -0400 Received: by MAIL.LOC.GOV (Soft*Switch Central V4L380P7) id 523248090095174FEMAIL; 23 Jun 1995 09:48:09 EST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Date: 23 Jun 1995 09:48:09 EST Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> From: "CHRISTINE T CALLAHAN" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE SF AND FANTASY DIFFERENCES To: [log in to unmask] Comment: RE SF AND FANTASY DIFFERENCES A poster provided a definition of SF as taking place in a more technologically advanced world than ours and fantasy as being in a medieval or epic setting. I would agree that probably the majority of fantasy falls into this definition, but what about James Morrow's "Towing Jehovah", currently a Hugo nominee? Or his "Only Begotten Daughter"? I'd certainly consider them fantasy, but the setting in both is basically our time and place. Same for Nancy Springer's novel "Larque on the Wing". And the whole subgenre of urban fantasy, which may have elements from "standard" fantasy such as some version of elves and magic, but the setting is very definitely late-20th century Earth, not medieval or epic. (Emma Bull comes to mind as a prominent writer in this area). I think we need some redefining of the genres. And I do agree that SF and fantasy (as in "fantasy is what I point at when I say it", as opposed to the all-compassing "fantastic literature" literary definition) ought to be considered different genres. This may or may not be due to my personal general preference for SF; no doubt a lot of fantasy-preferrers would also like to keep them distinct--if nothing else it helps in selecting the preferred literature and avoiding the non-preferred more easily� :-) Chris Callahan From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 09:50:33 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA39609; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 09:50:33 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA037435247; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 09:47:27 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 09:47:27 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: The first SF I was taught in college that the first SF ever written that we know of was committed to print in the second century BC. It was a Greek story dealing with a sailing ship that made it over the edge of the world and found an alien race there. It is fantasy to us now, but then it was pure SF, based on known facts of science at the time with a dose of "what if." ===== Brenda Daverin [log in to unmask] Geek Code 2.0 - GMU/T/O d- H++ s:++ !g p3 !au a- w+ v+ C++$ US P? L 3 E? N+ K+ W-- M+$ !V -po+ Y+ t+ 5+ j++ R G' tv+ b+++ !D B- e+ u** h---+ f+ r@ n@ x* From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 11:25:55 1995 Received: from ctc.ctc.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA86971; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 11:25:55 -0400 Received: by ctc.ctc.edu (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA287301013; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 08:23:33 -0700 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 08:23:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Wallace <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Fantasy v. SF In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 23 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > > I really wish people would stop grouping SF into ht efantasy category, and > vice versa. There is a *big* difference. SF takes place in a world more > technologically advanced than our own. It is often, but not always, a > projection of our own future. Some of the main categories include Space > Opera(romantic SF such as Star Wars) and cyberpunk(typified by Gibson's > gritty novels). Fantasy, on the other hand, takes place in a world less > technologically advanced than our own. It has its roots in medieval culture, > and epics such as beowulf. the classic examples are Lord of the Rings, which > is epic high fantasy, and the Conan stories, on a swords-and-sorcery level. > I consider this to be an oversimplification. Consider, for example, Wolfe's _Book of the New Sun_ (or Jack Vance's _Dying Earth_); Melissa Scott's alchemists-in-space trilogy (_Twelve Fifths of Heaven_ etc.), or even some of Steven Brust's works. For me, IMHO, AFAIK, and all those other disclaimers, the split between SF and fantasy is twofold: 1) Magic v. technology. Can _anyone_ learn to manipulate the universal forces, (technology; science = repeatable experiments), or does it require an inborn talent (magic) 2) Politics. Is the basis of rule attainable by anyone (vox populi; SF) or, again, does it require an inborn mandate (divine right; fantasy). You will, of course, perceive that the two are related. But, this does not address the poster's original complaint, the lumping together of SF and Fantasy. Why not? (Especially if SF=_speculative_ fiction). If you don't care to read one or the other, fine; but, if for no other reason than current marketing practices (I'm sure Messers Resnick, Effinger, etc. can speak to this), SF and fantasy are linked in the public mind, for better or worst. Certainly they both have a place on this list. regards, jim wallace [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 11:30:45 1995 Received: from relay.ubss.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA39649; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 11:30:45 -0400 Received: from na.ubs.com by relay.ubss.com with SMTP id AA11636 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for <[log in to unmask]>); Fri, 23 Jun 1995 11:30:39 -0400 Received: from uniblab.uniblab (uniblab.ubs.com [161.239.30.101]) by na.ubs.com (8.6.4/8.6.4) with SMTP id LAA02661 for <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 11:30:38 -0400 Received: by uniblab.uniblab (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA25840; Fri, 23 Jun 95 11:30:36 EDT Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 11:30:36 EDT From: [log in to unmask] (Marina Frants) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF AND FANTASY DIFFERENCES Another problem with trying to distinguish fantasy and SF are all the books that fall into the fuzzy region in between. The Pern and Darkover books are the most commonly offered examples, but more recently there were Rosemary Kirstein's "Steerswoman" books, C.S. Friedman's _Black Sun Rising_, C.J. Cherryh's Merovingen anthologies, etc. How about Tanith Lee's _The Birthgrave_, a Red Sonja-style heroic fantasy until the very end, when all of a sudden you find out it's science fiction after all? Or Piers Anthony's _Incarnations of Immortality_ series, which are actually set in our future, but are still full of magic? I think F and SF overlap a lot more than hard-core fans of either genre would care to admit. Marina Frants [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 11:36:05 1995 Received: from UICVM-ETH1.CC.UIC.EDU by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA38547; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 11:36:05 -0400 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Received: from UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU by UICVM.UIC.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5940; Fri, 23 Jun 95 10:35:32 CDT Received: from UICVM (NJE origin U28884@UICVM) by UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1290; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 10:35:32 -0500 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 10:29:45 CDT From: Laura Doyle <[log in to unmask]> Subject: thesaurus To: SF-Lit <[log in to unmask]> I have cobbled a few of these terms together into the beginnings of a hierarchical "tree" structure (subject organization). This is available at http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/sf/sf.thesaurus This is VERY rudimentary and is extracted from the also-rudimentary thesaurus I had been working on for feminist themes in speculative fiction. (That is at http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/sf/femsf.thesaurus so if you had been looking at that, please start looking at the new thing.) PLEASE send comments to me and I'll incorporate them, and maybe we can get a working idea of what we're all thinking about, and proceed from there. Laura M. Doyle / [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask] "You don't call, you don't write, you don't send me flowers. You only forward email. Sigh." -- Beth Braswell, personal email, 2/21/95 From cstu Fri Jun 23 12:12:02 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA101735; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:12:02 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:12:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: thesaurus Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 10:29:45 CDT From: Laura Doyle <[log in to unmask]> Subject: thesaurus I have cobbled a few of these terms together into the beginnings of a hierarchical "tree" structure (subject organization). This is available at http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/sf/sf.thesaurus This is VERY rudimentary and is extracted from the also-rudimentary thesaurus I had been working on for feminist themes in speculative fiction. (That is at http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/sf/femsf.thesaurus so if you had been looking at that, please start looking at the new thing.) PLEASE send comments to me and I'll incorporate them, and maybe we can get a working idea of what we're all thinking about, and proceed from there. Laura M. Doyle / [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask] "You don't call, you don't write, you don't send me flowers. You only forward email. Sigh." -- Beth Braswell, personal email, 2/21/95 From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 12:00:02 1995 Received: from mail.jal.cc.il.us by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA27171; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:00:02 -0400 Received: from PORT43.AIXDIALIN.SIU.EDU (PORT43.AIXDIALIN.SIU.EDU [131.230.253.43]) by mail.jal.cc.il.us (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA03374 for <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 11:01:09 -0500 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 11:01:09 -0500 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: [log in to unmask] X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: [log in to unmask] From: [log in to unmask] (Ed McKnight) Subject: Re: Blade Runner Voiceover On June 22 [log in to unmask] asked for opinions of BLADE RUNNER, mentioning the "corny" voiceover as one problem with the film. I try to bear in mind that after reading the screenplay Philip Dick wrote "It was terrific. It bore no relation to the book" [Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep]. Viewed, then, as a self-contained work of art rather than as a screen adaptation of the novel, I found it very interesting, both visually and in terms of its (Christian? Nietzschean?) symbolism. In my first few viewings I regarded the voiceover as deliberately inappropriate/insensitive to the story on the screen. Rick Deckard is clearly not intended to be the "hero" of the film in any traditional sense, and it seemed obvious to me that the voiceover was not to be granted any kind of interpretative authority. The voiceover after Batty's death is that of a confused individual trying to make sense of something (empathy from an android) that the viewer has already properly understood. Of course Ridley Scott later released a "Director's Cut" without the voiceover, and it is now my understanding that he was compelled to include the voiceover by studio executives who didn't understand what was happening on screen without it, so my earlier interpretation of the voiceover as a deliberate artistic decision is apparently invalid. Nevertheless, it was prompted by the overall excellence of the film. When the reader believes that an artist knows what he or she is doing then the reader will attribute meaning even to the artist's mistakes (something that is as true of Shakespeare as Ridley Scott). Ed McKnight - [log in to unmask] <><><><><><><><><><><><><> "Due to the convergence of forces beyond his comprehension, Salvatore Guanucci was squirted out of the universe like a watermelon seed and never heard from again" <><><><><><><><><><><><><> From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 12:01:51 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA21087; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:01:51 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA244953310; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:01:50 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:01:50 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: written vs. films Dear Mike Resnick.. Charles McCarry's new novel SHELLEY'S HEART while not science fiction could be "grabbed" for "us" since it does occur a few years in the future. Excellent Washington-political novel incidently. On page 207 the following: "On the northward flight from Santiago to Washington...." This made me smile. I've read just about everyting by both you and McCarry and enjoyed most everything. However, I do wish you would get back to SANTIAGO! I just signed on the SciFi list server. AT 66 I've some 55 years of SciFi in my heart and head. I'm currently obsessing on Connie Willis and Dave Wingrove. I work part time in a six chain privately owner book store here in Myrtle Beach. I regularily attack customers in the SciFi section with these two authors...When one is my age one can get away with a lot. I have so much fun I tell people I'm in charge of entertainment. I don't agree that the Trekbooks and Wookiebooks have killed the midlist. I remember what was on the shelves in the bookstores 30 years ago when I worked Doubleday on 53rd Street in NYC. There is no comparison with the volume of science fiction today and the movies and the TV are responsible for the jump start. There is also a lot of writing passing through the internet...more than I can handle, but the good stuff will surface. Get the kids to read and most of them will eventually read what I like. I'm convinced that what I have seen in literature over the past five years or so is that, on the avarage, the best writing is being done in the field of science fiction and it is being done by women. Julian May, Connie Willis, Nancy Kress, M. K. Wren (Gift Upon the Shore), to mention a few. Best wishes Martin From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 12:05:47 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA30238; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:05:47 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA127673547; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:05:47 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:05:47 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner In a message dated 95-06-23 07:34:21 EDT, you write: >How does everyone feel about Bladerunner? It has some good points, and great >sets and acting, but the voice-over is corny(even from Harrison Ford), and >the plot is rather bare-bones in nature. >This is a bit off the subject, but do you think that it would be possible and >feasible to depict netrunning(computer theft a la William Gibson) on the big >screen? That is one of my favorite cyberpunk elements. > > There is a directors cut version of Bladerunner out there. NO voice over, different ending. This is the way the story was supposed to go according to the original script but the director was overuled by the studio because it wasn't going over well in the screen testing. There are at least two films out there that depict the net fairly well, the first is Lawnmower man and the second is Johnny Mnemonic (sp?), as films they are fair at best, but the Net scenes in each are FANTASTIC! Eric From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 12:12:03 1995 Received: from Alice-Thurman.tenet.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA43886; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:12:03 -0400 Received: (from teriw@localhost) by Alice-Thurman.tenet.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA26221; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 11:12:02 -0500 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 11:11:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa J Warren <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In terms of JOHNNY MNEMONIC, my wife and I thought the plot of the film had little substance as a mediocre TNG episode (:::ducking brickbats:::). While we're aware that the original short story (as well as NEUROMANCER itself, which we just ordered from the Science Fiction Book Club!) may have had more "meat" to it, we just thought the movie relied much too much upon the glitzy effects of cyberspace than telling a good story. As for the sfx, TRON was much better in that category. But I could be wrong! ;D Gary L. Warren On Fri, 23 Jun 1995, D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple wrote: > > >How does everyone feel about Bladerunner? It has some good points, and > great > >sets and acting, but the voice-over is corny(even from Harrison Ford), and > >the plot is rather bare-bones in nature. > > The voiceover has been a contentious thing for ever. I've certainly heard > all sorts of rumours insisting on the one hand that it was imposed and added > as a nasty fix and everyone hated it (along with the happy ending, which > surely is the big, jarring and difficult to explain inconsistency), or, on > the other that it was /always/ meant to be there and everyone's got the > whole thing out of all proportion. Personally I quite liked it when the > thing came out. When it became a big issue I got all confused. Much of the > opposition to it seems to be stimulated by the idea that it was a crap > addition. I don't believe that it can have been exactly that. For instance > the introductory scene ("sushi" etc) not only makes more (ie some) sense > with the voiceover but seems all empty and unbalanced without it. Seems to > me it must have been written into that scene and others from the outset. > Some disagree. > > But the style, the /style/.... > > > >This is a bit off the subject, but do you think that it would be possible > and > >feasible to depict netrunning(computer theft a la William Gibson) on the > big > >screen? That is one of my favorite cyberpunk elements. > > Unless I've misread the reviews again, this has just been done in Johnny > Mnemonic. Generally the reaction seems negative. Then again this is partly > because all the reaction I've seen to the film as a whole is negative > anyway. A number of people are complaining that the film has bastardised > Gibson's original story and simultaneously prostituted his vision of the > future in general and "cyberspace" in particular. One thing that gets > raised in this context is a scene where Johnny is apparently using some kind > of VR-type interface to break in and do something or other on the net. Some > of the less imaginative objections are based on the idea that cyberspace > doesn't look right... Anyway, it seems it has been done and some people > don't like it. It's worth bearing in mind, if seeing this, that Gibson was > apparently intimately associated with all elements of its making, and also > that they were kind of forced to make the 30-million-dollar glitzy film they > made rather than the 1 1/2-million-dollar film noir they initially wanted to > do. In general the consensus seems to be that the Sprawl was not translated > well from page to screen. > > Dave > > From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 12:27:36 1995 Received: from vm1.cc.uakron.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA75691; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:27:36 -0400 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Received: from VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU by VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9866; Fri, 23 Jun 95 12:26:02 EDT Received: from AKRONVM (NJE origin R3SAW1@AKRONVM) by VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2869; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:26:02 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 12:18:09 EDT From: Sean Alan Wallace <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: SF AND FANTASY DIFFERENCES To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 23 Jun 1995 11:40:39 -0400 from <[log in to unmask]> The discussion between science fiction and fantasy comes down to how fantasy is viewed as. A few decades ago, fantasy as a general term could be used to describe all fiction, and vice versa. In my own experience, that general term fantasy CAN BE used for describing science fiction, in that it is fiction. Romance is fantasy, mystery is fantasy, fiction is fantasy. Science fiction, romance, mystery, are subdivions of fiction/fantasy. The problem is that somehow, the connotation of fantasy changed over the decades (I don't know when exactly) and therein lies the problem. Somehow, the reader's needed a specific term to separate a genre, especially when Tolkien burst upon the scene; he wasn't sf, wasn't mystery, but was fiction. At that point, fantasy as a separate genre took hold, I should think. Nowadays, I tend to use fantasy as a separate genre, but logically, when I think about it, all fiction is fantasy. I can't say that there is a difference between science fiction and fantasy, in that people tend to percieve their own definition of what fantasy is, or stands for. Does this make sense at all, or am I rambling ;-) - Sean - P.S. just bought Marion Zimmer Bradley's SWORD AND SORCERESS #12... excellent FICTIONAL stories...can't recommend it enough...tho, the cover art could need some help. From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 12:47:26 1995 Received: from bos1h.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA67964; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:47:26 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:47:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:47:25 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: written vs. films To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Martin: >> "I do wish you would get back to SANTIAGO." << I -wrote- SANTIAGO. Why would I want to get back to it. Movies may produce endless sequels; authors don't have to. What was in print 30 years ago may have been better than what's out today, or it may have been worse, but it was unquestionably poorer-paying and less numerous, and has no meaning when speaking of today's midlist. For example, I sold Lancer one of the -two- original sf novels it published in 1969. Today we have 8 publishers all doing 4 or 5 sf novels a month, and perhaps 40 more doing 2 to 10 a year. Bob Silverberg got the highest advance in sf history in 1971 when Ballantine paid him $12,500 for a book. The world, and our microcosm, have changed. By the mid-1980s, the "midlist" consisted of perhaps 50 writers who had broken into print, established a following, but weren't yet "lead" writers; as such, they could make a living while honing their craft and adding to their audience. This is no longer the case; today you're either a bottom-of-the-barrel author or a leader... all the other slots are taken up by endless Trekbooks, Wookiebooks, and sharecrop books (i.e., Isaac's Robot City, etc.). I put it to you that nobody ever learned to write by selling Trekbooks. For one thing, no character is allowed to change and grow from his experiences; they all have to end the books exactly as they began them. Further, telling 2nd-hand stories in 3rd-hand universes is hardly the way to stimulate creativity. I think that, far from molding authors to move over to general sf, the mediabooks are probably stifling a number of authors who may have had talent once, but no longer can hack it outside that very limited field. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 12:55:11 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA57583; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:55:11 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA081886511; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:55:11 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:55:11 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Mostly Harmless They aren't supposed to make much sense. How much sense they make is at times inversely proportional to how funny they are, which is one of the reasons that Adams is so marvelously hilarious. From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 12:55:22 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23287; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:55:22 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA082236522; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:55:22 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:55:22 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF vs. Fantasy Could you tell me more about those "Alternate Histories" you were referring to? They seem to be the lone exception. From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 12:55:27 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA37372; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:55:27 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA253746526; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:55:27 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:55:27 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: RE SF AND FANTASY DIFFERENCES Okay, I screwed up a little. Some modern, but supernaturally enhanced settings, such as those of ghost stories, can be considered fantasy. They should *not* be thought of as SF, though, so my distinction remains. From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 12:55:37 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA37142; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:55:37 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA083196537; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:55:37 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:55:37 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Fantasy v. SF I agree that both have a place on this list, and I agree with your point 1. However, there are some fantasy realms that are governed by a primitive form of democracy; similarly, many SF settings involve despotism and divine right. From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 12:55:42 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23069; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:55:42 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA190696542; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:55:42 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:55:42 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF AND FANTASY DIFFERENCES In referrence to Piers Anthony, I would say that the majority of his work is SF. When both magic and futuristic technology are present, I tend to lean towards the SF designation. From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 12:57:25 1995 Received: from palantiri.spb.su by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA52133; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:57:25 -0400 Received: from palnet.UUCP (uucp@localhost) by bar.palantiri.spb.su (8.6.8/8.6.12) with UUCP id UAA03574 for [log in to unmask]; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 20:50:23 +0400 Received: from palantiri.spb.su by palantiri.spb.su (UUPC/extended 1.12b) with UUCP; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 20:53:43 EDT Received: by palantiri.spb.su (FIDO2UU 1.92b [OS2]); Fri, 23 Jun 1995 20:53:42 +0300 To: [log in to unmask] From: Serge Berezhnoy <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: 19th Cent. SF Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 20:53:42 +0300 Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Verne, Shelley, De Bergerac, perhaps? :-) Well, but Cyrano de Bergerac lived in 17th Century... Not too late for science fiction? Maybe, Rables will be acceptable too? Serge Berezhnoy ... Welcome Here! (Hangman's oldest joke) --- GoldED 2.50.Beta5+ * Origin: Camelot-89. Voice call (812)-310-6007 (2:5030/207.2) From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 13:00:16 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA74994; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 13:00:16 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 18:00:05 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 23 Jun 95 18:00:00 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 17:59:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 19 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Eric, [log in to unmask]: >There is a directors cut version of Bladerunner out there. NO voice over, >different ending. This is the way the story was supposed to go according to >the original script but the director was overuled by the studio because it >wasn't going over well in the screen testing. I've a suspicion, very likely wrong, of course, that the matter isn't that simple. My vague recollection is that this "Director's Cut" was, even then, not actually what Ridley Scott had had in mind. I'll try to find some stuff that I think I have on this. May be thinking of a totally different "Director's Cut", of course. Or just making it up. Pretty sure, though, that I have an account of what this cut actually IS, which indicates that it's still not understood to be the "definitive thing". I'll root around... Dave From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 13:05:52 1995 Received: from relay1.geis.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA68093; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 13:05:52 -0400 Received: by relay1.geis.com (1.37.109.11/15.6) id AA260077148; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 17:05:48 GMT From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 16:21:00 UTC To: [log in to unmask] Subject: UK SF Sites X-Genie-Id: 7617074 X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2 Chris, I just re-read WAR OF THE WORLDS to prepare for a short story I wrote. I'd like to see all the locations therein on a map. You've got a big job ahead of you. At last count, there are over a billion and a half SF books set in the UK, written by British and foreign authors. If you're not careful, your map will be solid black with dots, particularly around London, I imagine. George Alec Effinger From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 13:05:52 1995 Received: from relay1.geis.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA52991; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 13:05:52 -0400 Received: by relay1.geis.com (1.37.109.11/15.6) id AA260097148; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 17:05:48 GMT From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 16:21:00 UTC To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Defining SF/Fantasy X-Genie-Id: 8227757 X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2 To the person who claimed that SF is set in a world more technologically advanced than ours, while fantasy is less technologically advanced, I have to say that this is a simplistic generalization, and just plain wrong. There are examples of modern SF that is set in a less technological world (the subgenre of steampunk, for example), as well as fantasy that takes place in what would otherwise be a higher-tech futuristic setting (I myself have written a fantasy story about supernatural critters aboard a generation starship). People ought to stop defining things, say I. It's just another way of pushing pins through butterflies and mounting them in cases. The butterflies are prettier when they're alive. George Alec Effinger PS: Oh, on another topic entirely, while I enjoyed "The Twilight Zone," I have come to realize how poverty-stricken the stories are. Most of the plots consist of an individual with but one principal--and unpleasant-- character trait. This person is put in a situation in which that trait gets him into trouble, and the story usually ends with him trapped in a horrible fate, having learned An Important Lesson, sadly Too Late. Too didactic by half. From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 13:15:55 1995 Received: from relay.ubss.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA85470; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 13:15:55 -0400 Received: from na.ubs.com by relay.ubss.com with SMTP id AA13007 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for <[log in to unmask]>); Fri, 23 Jun 1995 13:15:53 -0400 Received: from uniblab.uniblab (uniblab.ubs.com [161.239.30.101]) by na.ubs.com (8.6.4/8.6.4) with SMTP id NAA03391 for <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 13:15:51 -0400 Received: by uniblab.uniblab (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26192; Fri, 23 Jun 95 13:15:50 EDT Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 13:15:50 EDT From: [log in to unmask] (Marina Frants) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: written vs. films I too, was going to take exception to the claim that Trek and Wookiebooks (I love that term!) have driven out the midlist, but then I realized that in this one case one did have to make a distinction between SF and fantasy. There's not much of a SF midlist these days. Fantasy, on the other hand, has a huge midlist, probably because there has never been a fantasy equivalent of Star Trek or Star Wars. (Yeah, there's all those game-based books, but they haven't had quite the same impact, thank God.) Mike, if writing about borrowed characters in borrowed settings is so stifling to creativity, why are you so excited about writing a Sherlock Holmes story in another writer's style? Marina Frants [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 13:43:09 1995 Received: from adam.csd.unbsj.ca by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA47482; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 13:43:09 -0400 Received: from admin1.csd.unbsj.ca ([138.119.1.252]) by UnbSJ.CA (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01187; Fri, 23 Jun 95 14:43:38 ADT Received: from ADMIN1/ADMIN_MAILER by admin1.csd.unbsj.ca (Mercury 1.21); 23 Jun 95 14:43:07 GMT-4 Received: from ADMIN_MAILER by ADmiN1 (Mercury 1.21); 23 Jun 95 14:42:44 GMT-4 From: "DENNIS ABBLITT UNBSJ" <[log in to unmask]> Organization: UNB Saint John To: [log in to unmask] Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 14:42:41 ADT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: SF v. Fantasy Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> I see two problems with all of this discussion on the difference between sf and fantasy. 1) Most people seem to try to make each work inclusively one or the other. Frequently there are elements of both as well as other genres in each work. 2) There are too many concrete or descriptively specific definitions e.g. technological, scientific, magic, mediaeval. Personally, I like the definition, which I vaguely recall comes from one of the academic SF authors (maybe it was Jack Williamson, Jim Gunn, Lloyd Biggle or even Ike Asimov) during the late 60's or early 70"s. Science fiction is the literature of the probable, fantasy the literature of the improbable and supernatural the literature of the impossible (or maybe it was the other way round). Dennis. (Abblitt) Ward Chipman Library U.N.B.S.J. From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 14:25:14 1995 Received: from ibm2.loc.gov by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA39248; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 14:25:14 -0400 Received: by MAIL.LOC.GOV (Soft*Switch Central V4L380P7) id 081425140095174FEMAIL; 23 Jun 1995 14:25:14 EST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Date: 23 Jun 1995 14:25:14 EST Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> From: "CHRISTINE T CALLAHAN" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: BLADERUNNER To: [log in to unmask] Comment: BLADERUNNER On the subject of the voice-over and "happy ending" of BLADERUNNER--the director's cut, released in theaters a few yrs. ago (and now on video) does not have the voiceover, ends at the elevator, and from what I've read, has a few bits restored that had been cut from the original release (presumably because of length). Granted, it's been many yrs. since the original release and discussion, but as I remember, the voice over and "happy ending" were added after preview audiences reacted negatively to the original ending and had trouble figuring out what was happening; Scott (and Ford) reportedly did *not* want the voiceover and changed ending. The director's cut, which is supposed to be what the director actully wanted, did rather poorly on limited release, but hopefully is doing well on video (and laserdisk? I only have a VCR,so I don't notice what's on disk). I was able to see the director's cut in a theater, and really enjoyed it--I had hated the "happy ending",it was so obviously tacked on, and found the voice-over distracting (with anybody but Ford it would have been downright infuriating�) Chris Callahan (who *will* find time to view her own precious tape of BR--director's cut--one of these days�) From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 15:00:51 1995 Received: from FreeLunch.FreeNet.Kiev.UA by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA78753; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 15:00:51 -0400 Received: from sfclub.UUCP (uusfclub@localhost) by FreeLunch.FreeNet.Kiev.UA (8.6.12/0409) with UUCP id WAA00721 for [log in to unmask]; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 22:03:03 +0300 Received: by sfclub.FreeNet.Kiev.UA (UUPC/@ v5.09gamma, 14Mar93); Fri, 23 Jun 1995 21:52:25 +0300 To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Organization: Zoryany Shlyah SF Club From: Boris Sidyuk <[log in to unmask]> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 21:52:25 +0300 X-Mailer: BML [MS/DOS Beauty Mail v.1.36] Subject: LitSearch Lines: 5 Does anybody knows e-mail address of Larry Roeder or somebody else from LitSearch. Regards, Boris [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 15:02:42 1995 Received: from owlnet.rice.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA26154; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 15:02:42 -0400 Received: from perry.rice.edu by owlnet.rice.edu (OAA27373); Fri, 23 Jun 1995 14:02:43 -0500 Received: by perry.rice.edu (8.6.12/Rice Client-1.0) id OAA04557; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 14:02:37 -0500 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 14:02:36 -0500 (CDT) From: "John J. Ronald" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Fantasy v. SF To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 23 Jun 1995, Jim Wallace wrote: > But, this does not address the poster's original complaint, the lumping > together of SF and Fantasy. Why not? (Especially if SF=_speculative_ > fiction). If you don't care to read one or the other, fine; but, if for > no other reason than current marketing practices (I'm sure Messers > Resnick, Effinger, etc. can speak to this), SF and fantasy are linked in > the public mind, for better or worst. Certainly they both have a place > on this list. I utterly and completely reject using the term SF to stand for "Speculative Fiction". To me it means SCIENCE FICTION and I am sticking to my guns one this one. I insist that the term "Speculative Fiction" is utterly redundant, and a goofy linguistic trick designed to put SCIENCE FICTION and FANTASY in the same bed. All fiction involves some degree of speculation. Let me couch this by saying I don't mind discussing fantasy here either (I love that stuff too), but I personally follow the theory/definition of SF laid out by Dr. William B. Fischer in his study of German SF...namely that you cannot begin to speak of a true "Science Fiction" until you have an industrial revolution and science & technology have a drastic impact on people's lives and they are aware of, interested in, and sometimes afraid of, that impact. Only then, argues Fischer, can we truly begin to speak of Science Fiction. Does SF have roots before this? Certainly, and Fischer (and I) acknowledge this, but SF doesn't truly come into its own until the 19th century. It is a child of Fantasy that has grown up rapidly, along with our astonishing leaps and bounds in technology in this 20th century. They ARE related to one another, but they aren't the same. I understand what people are trying to do with the term "SF", but my mind just cannot accept the "S" standing for "Speculative" rather than "Science". "Speculation" is NOT the same thing as "Extrapolation"...related word? Sure, but NOT the same. Speculative is just too broad a term and just sounds redundant when paired with the term "Fiction". I'm not going to whine and threaten to unsubscribe from the list or tell everyone that I am going to get huffy and delete *all* the Fantasy related messages or anything like that... I'm just letting my position be known and letting it be known that I am digging in and sticking to my guns. (besides, what a boring list this would be if we were always agreeing with each other all the time ;-) ) Well, back to the books (and the video store)... --John Ronald Rice University From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 15:19:41 1995 Received: from ns.cityscape.co.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA52544; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 15:19:41 -0400 Received: from cityscape.co.uk (ac107.du.pipex.com [193.130.242.107]) by ns.cityscape.co.uk (8.6.4/8.6.4) with SMTP id UAA15572 for <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 20:18:04 +0100 To: [log in to unmask] From: [log in to unmask] (Chris Terran) Subject: Re: SF Sites in the UK Reply-To: [log in to unmask] References: <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 20:15:33 +0100 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Organization: BSFA X-Mailer: Archimedes TTFN Version 0.36 In message <[log in to unmask]> Sean wrote: > WhataboutTales from the White Hart by Clarke? I realize this may not > apply, tho. Why not? I can think of no more suitable place for an SSSI (Site of Special Science-fictional Interest, natch) than a pub. Best Chris (mine's a pint) -- Chris Terran ******************************************* Email: [log in to unmask] * Editor, 'Matrix' - The news magazine of * Voice: 0113 278 2388 * The British Science Fiction Association * Opinions mine ... mine, all mine! ******************************************* From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 15:19:47 1995 Received: from ns.cityscape.co.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA68178; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 15:19:47 -0400 Received: from cityscape.co.uk (ac107.du.pipex.com [193.130.242.107]) by ns.cityscape.co.uk (8.6.4/8.6.4) with SMTP id UAA15590 for <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 20:18:08 +0100 To: [log in to unmask] From: [log in to unmask] (Chris Terran) Subject: Re: UK SF Sites Reply-To: [log in to unmask] References: <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 19:42:17 +0100 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Organization: BSFA X-Mailer: Archimedes TTFN Version 0.36 In message <[log in to unmask]> George Alec Effinger wrote: > You've got a big job ahead of you. At last count, there are over a billion > and a half SF books set in the UK, written by British and foreign authors. > If you're not careful, your map will be solid black with dots, particularly > around London, I imagine. This was the reason for the use of "significant" in the wording. Which I reserve the right to define, ha ha . . . . But at the moment there are huge parts of the UK with no entries at all. The southwest of England is very well represented for some reason, but there are big gaps in the Midlands, Wales, Kent, Yorkshire (I live in Leeds, and I know of only two sf-related books set there), the north- east (Teeside -- viz. Mark Adlard -- excepted), Essex, Norfolk . . . . London is indeed a problem. Not quite sure how we're going to handle that yet . . . perhaps a magnified inset. Anyway, it isn't meant to be a comprehensive project. What I'm looking for are 'interesting' (define that how you will) sites; perhaps places which might be worth visiting. For instance, I want to include all the Blue Plaque sites with sf connections (these objects are placed on buildings and say things like "So-and-so lived/wrote/screwed the chambermaid here"). I suspect there aren't many. Best Chris -- Chris Terran ******************************************* Email: [log in to unmask] * Editor, 'Matrix' - The news magazine of * Voice: 0113 278 2388 * The British Science Fiction Association * Opinions mine ... mine, all mine! ******************************************* From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 15:30:10 1995 Received: from bos1g.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA67873; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 15:30:10 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 15:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 15:30:02 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: written vs. films To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Marina: >> "If writing about borrowed characters in borrowed settings is so stifling to creativity, why are you so excited about writing a Sherlock Holmes story in another writer's style?" << Because 1) it took me 2 hours, not a huge chunk of my creative life; 2) I've written over 50 novels and 150 stories in my own universes, so I don't think my creativity is being stifled at this late date; 3) writing one story of 5000 words in the style of Thorne Smith is -not- the same as writing 100 uncreative novels in the imagined style of Gene Roddenbury. Trust this answers your question/objection/whatever. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 15:37:51 1995 Received: from ccc-infonet.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA74015; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 15:37:51 -0400 Received: by ccc-infonet.edu id 0HOZ600P Fri, 23 Jun 95 12:35:42 -700 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Organization: CCC-InfoNet, Modesto, California (209) 577-3081 X-Mailer: TBBS/PIMP v3.25 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 12:35:42 -700 Subject: More on Douglas Adams... To: [log in to unmask] While we're on the subject of Douglas Adams, has anybody read _Last Chance to See_ which Adams supposedly co-authored? I was told that it was very good reading, and have ordered a copy from my favorite bookstore. BTW, I liked both of the Dirk Gently novels. Also, even though the originality and humour of the Hitchhiker's series had waned (inevitably) by the fifth book, I thought that the last book was in keeping with Adam's philosophy of a random, meaningless external universe. Arthur and Ford, though escaping Earth's destruction originally, just happened to be there for the final demolition. It could be that Mr. Adams had been asked one too many times if he was going to continue the HHGTG series, and decided, "Yes, I will as a matter of fact. And I'll blow them all up (hee, hee, hee)!" Just adding my $.02 worth! Jeff Ogle ([log in to unmask]) From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 15:56:01 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA90651; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 15:56:01 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA296067175; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 15:52:55 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 15:52:55 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy If you want others to know what you're talking about, you must define the words you use. Communication is of little use when we're really talking about different things and can misunderstand each other. I think it is fine to leave fantasy and SF together in a catagory like speculative fiction. But if you use the words fantasy and SFa lot, you might want to know what they mean to you (this extends to other, more important, matters). Fiction is stuff that simply can not and has not, nor never will, happen. My definition of speculative fiction (by that I mean SF and fantasy) is fiction that is very aware, even glorifies, the impossibility of its existence. Sure, some SF writers may try for "realistic" futures, but it's impossible to know. (And yes, some SF writers have predicted pieces of the future in their writing.) My definition of SF is speculative fiction that draws from the future. And fantasy draws from the past. These are very vague, and there are possible exceptions, but I'm working on 'em. Sean D. danes4 From cstu Sat Jun 24 20:21:17 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA85840; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 20:21:17 -0400 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 20:21:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy (fwd) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 16:49:55 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy Fantasy is often the literature of the impossible, not just improbable(Lord of the Rings). SF is frequently improbable or even impossible(Star Wars). Finally, the supernatural is often considered possible by those who write about it(when Stephen King wrote Carrie, he really believed in telekinetic powers). From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 17:45:31 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA07409; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 17:45:31 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA182643930; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 17:45:30 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 17:45:30 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner Johnny M was horrific. Nothing about or in the film was of value. From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 17:45:51 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA75791; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 17:45:51 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA053363950; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 17:45:50 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 17:45:50 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Twighlight Zone >I *love* the Twighlight Zone! Old stuff, and the newer episodes.. >(never saw the movie, though)...I also miss the tv-spinoff I dunno... I saw only one episode of the new TZ that was actually GOOD. The rest of them were just scary-tales :-) >of Amazing Stories that Spielberg did awhile back...those >were great, too...Lots of very cool (and often, very twisted) YES ! Remember that crazy teacher one ? What was it called.... >Zone also drives SF as well. Good point, good point. >*high five* Thank you. From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 19:17:03 1995 Received: from ns.pilot.net by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA77063; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 19:17:03 -0400 Received: from Altera.COM ([137.57.1.1]) by mail.pilot.net (4.1 1/7/93 /SMI-4.1) id AA22932; Fri, 23 Jun 95 16:17:01 PDT Received: from rodan.altera.com by Altera.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08246; Fri, 23 Jun 95 16:18:09 PDT Received: from martinw by rodan.altera.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA18916; Fri, 23 Jun 95 16:18:40 PDT From: [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Androids...Sheep -> Blade Runner (was Written vs. Films) Reply-To: [log in to unmask] Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 16:07:13 PDT Message-Id: <9506232307.0D61E8@martinw> X-Mailer: SelectMAIL 1.2 A brief editorial: I've always tried to relate my postings to this group to SF literature in some fashion. Since I've learned that there's considerable opposition from some members of this list towards discussing the subject of SF in media other than the written word here, I'll try to make my comments as valuable as possible to everyone. I don't want to waste anyone's time, and I certainly have no problem acknowledging literature as the most valuable aspect of the SF genre. End of editorial. On the subject of the translation of PKD's DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP (DADOES) into Scott's BLADE RUNNER [log in to unmask] wrote: |I try to bear in mind that after reading the screenplay Philip Dick |wrote "It was terrific. It bore no relation to the book" [Do Androids |Dream of Electric Sheep]. I haven't read my BLADE RUNNER screenplay in a while; PKD's observation of it could be quite correct. On the other hand, I wonder if PKD ever saw Ridely Scott's finished BLADE RUNNER, because I certainly feel that film retains many of the ideas and concepts that PKD's novel contained. My recollection of DADOES includes the question of many of the principal characters' humanity and the resulting (and most compelling, IMHO) implications of subjective reality. I believe that these questions and themes were expressed in the film; I believe that the means of communicating these ideas were altered in going from the written word to the screen, but I don't think it would be correct to say that "the movie has no relation to the book". Some observations about the voiceover: from what I understand (as many posters have mentioned), Scott never intended a voiceover for the released film; the voiceover was added a a concession to others when initial screenings returned ambiguous and/or negative ratings. My observation is that the voiceover intends to makes Deckard a much more sympathetic character to the audience; without it, there is no mention of an ex-wife, he makes no associations with the motivations of the replicants, and we have fewer indications of his feelings towards Rachael. PKD's Deckard is certainly a more sympathetic character than Scott's (non-voiceover) Deckard; PKD's Deckard is much more of an "everyman" (bowing to peer pressure with respect to electric animals, being scolded by his wife, etc.) as compared to Scott's "lonelyman" (recently seperated from wife and job, seemingly having no hobbies except killing and wandering the cold, wet streets). From these surface observations, I might be tempted to conclude that PKD's message is intended to hit a broader audience (since it employs the sympathetic everyman), whereas Scott's version seems to be intended more as an exploration of a single individual. On the subject of the various version of Scott's BLADE RUNNER, Dave Hipple ([log in to unmask]) wrote: |My vague recollection is that this "Director's Cut" was, even then, |not actually what Ridley Scott had had in mind. I'll try to find some |stuff that I think I have on this. May be thinking of a totally |different "Director's Cut", of course. I've seen three different versions of BLADE RUNNER. The first was the voice-over version (theatrical release), the second was a non-voice-over version with a few extra scenes (a "preliminary" director's cut), and the third was also a non-voice-over edition with a few more scenes (a "final" director's cut?). This last version has been released on laserdisc as part of Voyager's Criterion Collection along with commentary by Ridley Scott, production materials etc. I recommend this version as well as the BLADE RUNNER FAQ as excellent sources of BLADE RUNNER information. Finally, someone asked for opinions on the voice-over version vs. the non-voice-over version. I'll try to be brief (YES! everybody screams---BE BRIEF!). The voice-over was largely intended to (paraphrasing Mike Resnick) "dumb <the movie> down to a 10-year-old level". When I first saw the movie, I was a bit older than 10, but the voice-over did its job--it patronizingly led me through the complex ideas presented in the film. I can't *hate* the voice-over version, since it introduced me to a work that would become one of my favorite pieces of popular art, but I can *prefer* the non-voice over version, and recommend that others give it a try. I believe that the non-voice-over version is a more cohesive, powerful, and disturbing work. OK, that's all. Hope nobody's time was wasted. -Martin S. Won [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 20:17:02 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA78874; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 20:17:02 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA033723021; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 20:17:01 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 20:17:01 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: 19th Century sf Arno Press printed a series of primarily 19th century Science Fiction in the mid to late 1970's. The dates of the works on their list range from 1751 to 1934, but most are 19th century. The majority of the authors in this series were new to me. There is a dated list of books and authors in the back of each volume. Tempe Public Library, Tempe, Arizona seems to have most of them. My example in hand is Empire of the World by C. Cutcliffe Hyne, Arno Press New York 1975 [London, Everette & Co., 1909.] Another source which has much 19th century material is Hyperion Press with their classic series. It includes a lot of more modern stuff. Gary Gary L. Swaty From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 20:39:01 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA94302; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 20:39:01 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA146314340; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 20:39:00 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 20:39:00 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: 2001 I totally agree with you. I would like to see it remade with all the great special effects available now. Pat From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 21:43:00 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA61604; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 21:43:00 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA119768180; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 21:43:00 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 21:43:00 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, et... >Yes, film and TV have had tremendous effects (affects? never remember the >difference) on sci fi. However, very little (almost none) of it I consider >good art. SF film and TV (and maybe there is excellent work in less >mainstream markets being done that I am not aware of) is quite flawed. Until >it reaches the level of art that some writing has achieved, I feel it is >mainly relevant in its relation to better quality work. Well, actually, there are many different genres on TV, too, just as there are many different genres in the print. For example, Star Trek qualifies as "space opera", but Star Wars beats it cold :-) Anyway, I consider the Twilight Zone being one of the masterpieces of TV... "Enemy Mine" is also great, but it is not the original, so it doesn't really count. What about "Hook" or "The Lion King" ? From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 21:50:38 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA59249; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 21:50:38 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA002708638; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 21:50:38 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 21:50:38 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF thesaurus-Difference b... >I really wish people would stop grouping SF into ht efantasy category, and >vice versa. There is a *big* difference. SF takes place in a world more >technologically advanced than our own. It is often, but not always, a Actually, in some cases SF and F are welded together. Take McCaffrey (sp?) , or Simak: most of the time there is a smooth transition from hi-tech to wizardry. Come to think of it, what about "So you want to be a wizard" ? What category would that be in ? Both, IMHO. From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 21:53:32 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA21156; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 21:53:32 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA143758812; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 21:53:32 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 21:53:32 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy It was in The Twilight Zone... "Science is iprobable made possible, fantasy - impossible made probable". Or something like this... From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 21:56:40 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA90850; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 21:56:40 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA016219000; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 21:56:40 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 21:56:40 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy >PS: Oh, on another topic entirely, while I enjoyed "The Twilight Zone," I >have come to realize how poverty-stricken the stories are. Most of the >plots consist of an individual with but one principal--and unpleasant-- >character trait. This person is put in a situation in which that trait gets >him into trouble, and the story usually ends with him trapped in a horrible >fate, having learned An Important Lesson, sadly Too Late. Too didactic by >half. I disagree. While many of the episodes do just that, others deal with society vs individual or plain political satire... But all of them give the "lesson" as an additional monologue, they do NOT make it the whole point of the episode. From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 22:04:02 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA14674; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 22:04:02 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA215109256; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 22:00:56 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 22:00:56 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Fantasy v. SF >1) Magic v. technology. Can _anyone_ learn to manipulate the universal >forces, (technology; science = repeatable experiments), or does it >require an inborn talent (magic) I disagree. Many books deal with magic taken in scientific manner (Sheckley, for example, has some stories on that). This would blow up definition #1. Besides, remember Clarkean saying... >2) Politics. Is the basis of rule attainable by anyone (vox populi; SF) >or, again, does it require an inborn mandate (divine right; fantasy). I disagree again. While fantasy often deals with an idea of "born king", Middle Earthern Minas Tirith had the Governors, "Wizard of Earthsea" had some politics in it as well, etc. I would say that F and SF's major difference is that SF deals with a world derived from our own, while F creates an entirely new world. However, F / SF is not a boolean: some books have both. From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 23:32:34 1995 Received: from gw2.att.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA04648; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 23:32:34 -0400 Received: from hellas.nw.att.com by ig1.att.att.com id AA03000; Fri, 23 Jun 95 11:51:43 EDT Received: by hellas.nw.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA04084; Fri, 23 Jun 95 10:51:43 CDT Received: by hellas.nw.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA04080; Fri, 23 Jun 95 10:51:41 CDT Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 10:51:41 CDT From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF vs. Fantasy > SF is not necessarily set in a future world, or a technologically superior > one. Alternate Histories are SF, and most of them don't feature superior > technology. The definition of SF that I like (because it's broad enough to > cover everything we generally agree is SF) is that SF is literature dealing > with a world differing from our own in a way that can be (or explicitly is) > explained scientifically. Fantasy is a closely related genre (or the larger Another way to look at it is that there are broad ranges of sciences that may be looked at in SF. My wife and I were discussing this area in relation to this year's Hugo nominees. Of course, as a lot of us were growing up, SF meant other planets, stars, spaceships, and alien creatures. I still, even though I know better, have a hard time getting around this notion. What about sciences like anthropology, sociology, biology, meteorology, etc. The whole discussion stemmed from my "problem" with having _Towing Jehovah_ nominated in the field of SF. My wife pointed out that there are more sciences in SF than just the traditional, and that this novel may fit that category. As I thought about it, she was right. It would explain of lot of nominees in recent (or maybe not so recent :-)) years. For instance, _Brittle Innings_ has one science fictional element in it, but certainly isn't the traditional one a lot of us grew up with. I won't spoil it for those who haven't read it. Enough rambling, I guess. I hope I made some sense. Joe Karpierz From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 23 23:46:26 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA59385; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 23:46:26 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA096065586; Fri, 23 Jun 1995 23:46:26 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 23:46:26 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Fantasy v. SF The whole debate about the definition of Science Fiction was settled in the fan group here in Arizona years ago by agrreeing to disagree. The local fan organization I belong to settled on the term Speculative Fiction and has not attempted to define Fantasy or Science Fiction with any specificity. I suspect that any definition that is adopted can be brought crashing down with specific examples from the literature. In general you can usually put a piece in one category or the other, but if you try to tighten up your definitions they fall to pieces in your hands. Gary Gary L. Swaty Member: Central Arizona Speculative Fiction Society From [log in to unmask] Sat Jun 24 02:22:04 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA93525; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 02:22:04 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA038194924; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 02:22:04 -0400 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 02:22:04 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: 2001 -- A Masterpiece Apparently, [log in to unmask] was not entirely pleased with 2001: A Space Odyssey {I'm assuming the 1968 cinematic collaboration between the novel's author, A.C. Clarke and director Stanley Kubrick.} Pardon me while I take issue. As this work deals with the very development of humans from little more than apes poised on the brink of extinction, the "ape scenes" were indispensible. What prompted our an- sestors 100,000+ generations removed to survive in a world so hostile? That is the initial question Clarke pursued with Moonwatcher, the classical "person vs. nature" type conflict. Flashing to the work's present {done, I might add, with all the elegance contained in 1/24th of a second (yes, the best ideas really are the simplest)}, Clarke turns the question in another direction. Humanity's intelligence has made us masters of our world and even opened the door leading off our world. Having de- feated our earthly surroundings, we now must confront the chal- lenge our advantage has unwittingly spawned. Hal is merely the 'other' participant in the "person vs. him/herself" type conflict played out on board the Discovery in the space near Jupiter. In the final sequence, humanity confronts its ultimate challenge. Having triumphed over less evolved surroundings and our own selves, are we ready to join the "community" of higher intel- ligence {indeed, our very benefactors?} Humanity, in the person of astronaut David Bowman, makes this final great leap, fulfilling Clarke's optimistic speculations of Humanity's future. _2001_ is, IMHO, frontal lobe fodder at its finest. There are works containing better character development, more graspable concepts and action, and, undoubtably of more alluring style. But I have come across none, delivered in any medium, that dealt with such fundamentally human concerns in such an ele- gant manner. _2001_ stands apart in its representation of human-kind, knowning nothing of the churlish bounds of mere place and time. -Phil "Thank you ACC" Rosen From [log in to unmask] Sat Jun 24 03:45:21 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA43831; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 03:45:21 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA29145; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 02:45:01 -0500 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 02:45:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: RE: Mostly Harmless In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950624024432.17015B-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, I have read the radio scripts. I did like the tv series of HHGTTG quite a bit, even with the bit of messing around they pulled. :) Also had the album version of HHGTTG. AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From [log in to unmask] Sat Jun 24 04:02:19 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23244; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 04:02:19 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA29684; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 03:01:58 -0500 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 03:02:24 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Films/tv/written tie-ins and the field? In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950624025850.17015C-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Interesting question, Mike. Have these books widened the exposure of the field as a whole? Probably. Some of them are written by professionals such as yourself, too. Makes more money for them, there. Someone has to write them. New writers are generally screwed/up against huge odds anyway, aren't they? Is there a study on this anywhere, as to how many new writers get published each year in whatever field? Star Trek books, Doctor Who books, whatever, have been published for decades. Well, at least a couple. :) Lots of them by 'famous' authors, too. How about publication of 'screenplay' books in general? i.e. every movie seems to have its own novel version, and for quite a while, too.. AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From [log in to unmask] Sat Jun 24 04:09:24 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA55083; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 04:09:24 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA00524; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 03:09:03 -0500 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 03:09:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950624030854.17015E-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Get the Director's Cut of Blade Runner. No voice-over, different original ending. It is available on video. AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From [log in to unmask] Sat Jun 24 04:26:47 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA81047; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 04:26:47 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA02000; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 03:26:26 -0500 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 03:26:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: written vs. films In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950624032242.17015G-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Regarding third hand universes :- People that like those universes more than yours might object to that statement, Mike.:) I think you have part of a point, but are not completely correct. Then again, you're a writer, I'm not. As such, you are lucky to be part of a lucky talented privileged few. Now, to another question :- does it take more nebulously defined 'talent' to write in someone else's universe, or make up a boring mediocre one of your own? (just as a generic example, not naming names.) The Star Wars books, for example :- Have you read them all? Characters obviously grow and change. Luke becomes a master, Han and Leia have rugrats, all that sort of stuff. That is not quite the static reality of a tv series with no continuity, etc., is it? AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From [log in to unmask] Sat Jun 24 04:29:46 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA18130; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 04:29:46 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA02030; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 03:29:26 -0500 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 03:29:51 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: RE SF AND FANTASY DIFFERENCES In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950624032851.17015I-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Why can't they be SF? Stick a vampire in Gibson's sprawl. What do you have then? This definition is way too narrow and 'purist' AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place On Fri, 23 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > Okay, I screwed up a little. Some modern, but supernaturally enhanced > settings, such as those of ghost stories, can be considered fantasy. They > should *not* be thought of as SF, though, so my distinction remains. > From [log in to unmask] Sat Jun 24 13:00:22 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA04808; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 13:00:22 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA161683036; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 12:57:16 -0400 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 12:57:16 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Tie-In Novels Speaking to the book tie-ins to SF movies and TV shows, I will go on record as being a willing buyer of the Babylon 5 novels and comics, but ONLY those, not the other media tie-ins. Why? They're important to the story arc Mr. Straczynski is telling. He isn't allowing extranea to bear his creation's logo, unlike the Trek or Star Wars megaseries. He's also keeping them to a minimum. There have been, and likely only will be, three B5 novels and a four or five-part comic miniseries. Rather civilized of him, I'd say. ===== Brenda Daverin [log in to unmask] Nibelung Code: N48 l+ a(-) f- n- e d+ m+ b g(-) v u+ w+ From [log in to unmask] Sat Jun 24 14:16:44 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA18080; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 14:16:44 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA237867803; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 14:16:43 -0400 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 14:16:43 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Alternate Histories and SF Quoting [log in to unmask] >Could you tell me more about those "Alternate Histories" you were referring >to? They seem to be the lone exception. An alternate history story is one where some crucial point in hsitory is changed or deleted, and the author pursues the possiblity of the results. An excellent example is a story written by Robert Heinlein (I unofrtunatly forget the title) where the protagnist is actaully working on an alternate history story. The twist is, the story Heinlien writes in set in a wrold where the Roman empire didn't collapse. I also woudl like to say that that altenrate histories are not the sole domain of sci-fi. For an example, see the movie _Forrest Gump_. In the movie, Forrest is the catalyst for several of histories key events. Although it doesn't change the outcome of history, it is an alternate reality, as there was no real Gump. The novel is an even borader alternate history, as Gump actually does things that never happend, and minor changes in history result. From [log in to unmask] Sat Jun 24 14:16:45 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA51621; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 14:16:45 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA119607805; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 14:16:45 -0400 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 14:16:45 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Women in Sci-Fi Has anyone ever read a scinece fiction story where the protagnist is a female and doesn't have a sexual encounter? This isn't a question of prejudice, but curiosity. I've jsut written such a story, and thought of this while editing it for submission. From [log in to unmask] Sat Jun 24 14:16:50 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA91057; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 14:16:50 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA119697809; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 14:16:49 -0400 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 14:16:49 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Ancient fantasy literature The grandaddy of all fiction in this line is Lucian's _True History_, a wonderful travel satire written in the 2nd century A.D. There's considerable scatological and sexual humor in it, as I recall, which means it'll be ridiculously easy to get high school students to read it. Simply forbid them to do so. ******************* Along these same lines is _The Metamorphosis_, I don't remember the author's name (perhaps someone else can fill this in for me - it's been a couple of years since I checked out a copy), but the plot involves a man being turned into a donkey by the gods (it's either the Greek or Roman Panthenon - like I said, it's been a few years) and does interesting things (like having sex with a nobelman's daughter - a girl who is *very* upset and hurt when the donkey returns in the form of a human years later). I believe very vague hints about what it's about and why the students should *not* read it would make it difficult for the local library to keep it's copies on hand. [:-) Adora [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Sat Jun 24 14:17:00 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA18121; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 14:17:00 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA148027820; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 14:17:00 -0400 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 14:17:00 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Pulp books series - good or bad? That said, I will freely admit that Roddenbury and Lucas have had an enormous effect on science fiction. Where I work, it is appearent primarily in endless Trekbooks and Wookiebooks that have virtually killed the midlist and kept dozens of promising young writers off the racks. If anyone would like to argue that this has been good for the field, I'll be happy to oblige. ******************** In the August issue of _Science Fiction and Fantasy_ magazine there's an editorial about the _Goosebumps_ series that have kids doing flips to convince their parents to buy them, or (according to my mother-in-law...who works @ an elementary school library) running to the library to try and check out a copy that they haven't read yet. The editorial stated that this was good for the SF and Fantasy business (even though these books are horror) because it's getting kids to *enjoy* reading. Now, along these same lines, the trecky and Wookie books have gotten some of my very busy adult friends to take a few minutes out of their day to read (we call it head-candy). *But* is this really a good thing? If all of these 'pulp' series (some of which have very obvious plot and literary flaws and are written solely for the purpose of tying into a fad and giving the reader a fast-paced thrill that doesn't require to much thought) are pushing out promising writers with real meaty stuff to offer, I can't help but wonder. Adora [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Sat Jun 24 14:17:06 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA68825; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 14:17:06 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA050177639; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 14:13:59 -0400 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 14:13:59 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Trecky trivia A quick question - Where was Cpt Kirk born? I know it's in Iowa, and I know a town in this wonderfull state 'o' mine has managed to lay official claim to the honor, but I can't find the name of this elusive town! I've heard that they have an anual 'star-treck & farm-implement' parade/fair thing that helps them to raise money for stuff like park equipment, and I'd love to drive out to see it. If someone can think of the name, I can contact the chamber (and/or drive out there) to find out the rest of the info about the town - for anyone interested. Thanks! Adora [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Sat Jun 24 19:09:09 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA79103; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 19:09:09 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA279145349; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 19:09:09 -0400 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 19:09:09 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Profiles of er, when was that? Andy Builer posted: > > >My (Corgi SF Collectors Library) edition of Planet 3 is dated 1973 >(actually a 75 reprint) with a Gollancz edition noted in 1972. The >intro, date January 1971, mentions Profiles of the Future (1963) and >Voices From the Sky (1965). > >My Pan edition of Profiles is a second edition 1973 (and copyrighted >then, + 1962) with mention of a 1964 Pan edition, with an earlier >Gollancz (1962 [sic]) edition. Presumably Andy Sawyer quoted from a >Gollancz hardback of the second edition. > >The Third Law (on magic) is mentioned in a footnote on p 39, having >referred to the French edition of Profiles. Clarke says "[I] have >also >formulated a Third", with the implication that this would postdate >the >second, which was published in 1962 (in Profiles) but not designated >as a >law until the French edition. I believe I cited it last night as >being >in 1969 in the New Yorker, otherwise it appears to have been >formulated >between 1962 and 1972. Could it have been in Voices? When was Lost >Worlds of 2001? > In the past year I read of SOMEONE having been quoted as considering another author as adding a new law to Clark's laws (either third or fourth) the other author felt amused and complemented. This was in either ASIMOV'S, ANALOG, SCIENCE FICTION AGE, or SCIENCE FICTION CHRONICLE. In the last year. --Paul From [log in to unmask] Sat Jun 24 19:09:28 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23055; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 19:09:28 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA284205368; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 19:09:28 -0400 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 19:09:28 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy The person who claimed that SF is set in a world more technologically advanced than ours, while fantasy is less technologically advanced, I have one observation: Doesn't that imply that SF from the past 'degrades' into fantasy? Our tech is advancing. Older SF has NOT beecome fantasy even though their tech is now obsolete. --Paul From [log in to unmask] Sat Jun 24 19:11:26 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA78883; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 19:11:26 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA186055299; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 19:08:19 -0400 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 19:08:19 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy Your story was SF, not fantasy. What is steampunk? From [log in to unmask] Sat Jun 24 21:40:41 1995 Received: from mail.jal.cc.il.us by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA98795; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 21:40:41 -0400 Received: from PORT20.AIXDIALIN.SIU.EDU (PORT20.AIXDIALIN.SIU.EDU [131.230.253.20]) by mail.jal.cc.il.us (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA01438 for <[log in to unmask]>; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 20:40:39 -0500 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 20:40:39 -0500 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: [log in to unmask] X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: [log in to unmask] From: [log in to unmask] (Ed McKnight) Subject: Re: Fantasy and SF (Technology in) George Alec Effinger wrote: >To the person who claimed that SF is set in a world more technologically >advanced than ours, while fantasy is less technologically advanced, I have >to say that this is a simplistic generalization, and just plain wrong. >There are examples of modern SF that is set in a less technological world >(the subgenre of steampunk, for example), as well as fantasy that takes >place in what would otherwise be a higher-tech futuristic setting I have to agree; while fantasy does still demonstrate more of the quasi-medieval iconography characteristic of the genre than SF does the iconography of robots, spaceships and ray guns, there is nothing inherently contradictory about fantasy and technology; nor is a technology more advanced than our own necessary to science fiction. Turtledove's AGENT OF BYZANTIUM stories are a good example of the latter point, in that while they are set in the thirteenth century (not our thirteenth century, granted, but not radically different from ours) they also fit the narrowest definition of SF I've ever encountered: Asimov's "science fiction is fiction about science" (or words to that effect). The central plot element in almost all of these stories is the discovery or development of some specific piece of technology (the telescope, gunpowder, the smallpox vaccine), making them indisputably SF despite the medieval setting. >People ought to stop defining things, say I. It's just another way of >pushing pins through butterflies and mounting them in cases. The >butterflies are prettier when they're alive. I agree with this, too, at least as far as prescriptive definitions are concerned. To tell a writer that he or she can't put a dragon and a spaceship into the same story is absurd. However, descriptive definitions that arise from the observation of what has been written in the past, and that allow for further innovations, are not only useful to librarians and booksellers, but can enrich one's reading of a particular story by adding to one's awareness of the elements of various genres as they develop and intermingle. With that in mind, let me say that the most profoundly thoughtful "definition" of SF I've ever read was Norman Spinrad's: ". . . a literary technique for re-creating the lost innocence of fantasy, for resurrecting the reader's true belief in the tale of wonder, in the possibility of the fantastic, in the notion that his universe and the universe of the marvelous may be one and the same" (Science Fiction in the Real World p. 47). This definition ignores the superficial elements of iconography or setting and focuses on the reader and his or her own understanding of the universe and how it can and cannot function. Most significantly, it leaves it to the reader to decide whether he or she is reading SF or fantasy while providing a usable framework in which to make that decision. Ed McKnight - [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Sat Jun 24 22:24:22 1995 Received: from mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA46597; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 22:24:22 -0400 Received: (from g9426147@localhost) by mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA (8.6.9/8.6.9) id WAA03922; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 22:25:26 -0400 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 22:25:25 -0400 (EDT) From: "M.L. Davis" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Women in Sci-Fi To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 24 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > Has anyone ever read a scinece fiction story where the protagnist is a female > and doesn't have a sexual encounter? This isn't a question of prejudice, but > curiosity. I've jsut written such a story, and thought of this while editing > it for submission. For interests sake, try finding a few contemporary sf works where women are *not* considered to be "breeders"--most of the dystopian stuff I'm working with features such scenarios (difficult to narrow the choices down to a workable #). OK, I recognize that's an overstatement [please don't waste band-width listing umpity-zillion examples where it is not true], but there are a *lot* of examples of 80s writers exploring the issue (i.e. Wilhelm, Atwood, Piercy, Elgin...). On that note, Joanna Russ has written a great story (name escapes me, 'bout 10 years old, sorta a cliches from outer-space thing), and one character is sifting thru the slush pile while moaning "if I have to read *one* more story about weird ways to get pregnant..." Just my tuppance on the issue. Marie Davis ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::: "That which does not kill me, makes me funnier" ::: ::: - Dennis Miller ::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: From [log in to unmask] Sat Jun 24 22:49:07 1995 Received: from condor.CC.UMontreal.CA by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA61715; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 22:49:07 -0400 Received: from eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA (eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA [132.204.10.20]) by condor.CC.UMontreal.CA with ESMTP id WAA19817 (8.6.11/IDA-1.6 for <[log in to unmask]>); Sat, 24 Jun 1995 22:48:11 -0400 Received: by eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA (950221.405.SGI.8.6.10/5.17) id WAA29532; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 22:48:10 -0400 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 22:48:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Alternate Histories and SF To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Quoting [log in to unmask] > >Could you tell me more about those "Alternate Histories" you were referring > >to? They seem to be the lone exception. One of Philip K. Dick's most famous novels _The_Man_In_The_High_Castle_ is set in an alternate universe where Japan and Germany have won world II and divided the USA along the Mississippi. Several other alternate history stories have Germany winning WW2 as a setting. One of the best such histories _SS-GB_ was lovingly written by Len Deighton who is not a SF writer but an outstanding amateur historian. Other alternate history stories have a universe where the south as won the civil war as a setting. In some alternate history stories the alternate is provoked by somebody going back in the past in a time machine and changing the course of time. In these cases there is supposedly only one possible timeline. In other alternate history stories, such as the paratime series by H. Beam Piper or the novel _Roadmarks_ by Zelazny, multiple universes coexist and the hero goes from one to another by scientific means. Well, not exactly scientific in the case of Zelazny. On the usenet, there is an entire newsgroup devoted to alternate history: alt.history.what-if Every 4 months, R.B. Schmunk (an alternate history fan with a methodical bent) post on this newsgroup his _Alternate_History_Booklist_. It is in fact a most thorough bibliography which covers every alternate history story or novel ever written. It presents them in chronological split-off order and in order of author. Schmunk also gives a complete history of alternate histories and their etymology in the introduction. There is an american TV series called "Sliders" where the heroes are perpetually sliding from one alternate to the other. I can't say how bad it is because it isn't broadcast up here. In this case there are several parallele universes which the heroes visit by scientific means. DE: Alain Vaillancourt [log in to unmask] aa From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 00:18:20 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA66969; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:18:20 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA235863900; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:18:20 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:18:20 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: More on Douglas Adams... There's one thing I don't get about the Hitchhiker trilogy. Everyone assumes it to be set in stone that Arthur can't die until he goes to some planet(I can't remember the name) and gets shot at, and ducks, and the bullet kills Agrajag in one of his many forms. Then he dies with the rest of the world. Did any of you DL fans out there catch that? From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 00:18:26 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA82089; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:18:26 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA042453720; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:15:20 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:15:20 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy (fwd) I like your definition of fantasy, but how can one "draw from the past"? From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 00:18:32 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA67001; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:18:32 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA144333911; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:18:31 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:18:31 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner That's a real surprise after William Gibson wrote the script, which alone was enough to make me want to see it. From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 00:18:36 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA61641; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:18:36 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA042663730; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:15:30 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:15:30 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Androids...Sheep -> Blade Runner (was Written vs. Films) Deckard would have been much more gritty and convincing, ad the movie as a whole would have been a lot better, if he had *not* been made into an "everyman". One of the main distinctions of cyberpunk is that the protagonist need not be a hero. From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 00:18:41 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA82133; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:18:41 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA144633921; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:18:41 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:18:41 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF thesaurus-Difference b... Could you please describe "So you want to be a wizard"? I haven't read it so i can't comment on it. Usually, a story containing both fantasy and sci-fi elements can be considered sci fi, since SF does not preclude magic, while fantasy is firmly rooted into a modern or earlier tech level. The defining factor of SF is technology level, and anything that is neither at a later date nor a higher tech level than the time at which it is written is not SF From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 00:18:48 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA52195; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:18:48 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA236703927; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:18:47 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:18:47 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: RE SF AND FANTASY DIFFERENCES > Why can't they be SF? Stick a vampire in Gibson's sprawl. > What do you have then? This definition is too narrow and > purist. Answer: You have SF. No sound definition of SF requires it to be free of what we consider supernatural--after all, luke Skywalker used the Force, while Deanna Troi is empathic(a restricted version of telepathy). The key factor in this case is the Gibson's work takes place in the future. From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 00:18:52 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA44782; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:18:52 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA144943932; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:18:52 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:18:52 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Alternate Histories and SF Question: Is the "Alternate History" story taking place in an alternate history at a higher technology level than our own? if so, it is SF. If not, assuming that it contains no magic, it is neither SF nor fantasy--it's just a creatively twisted setting. From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 00:19:00 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA88332; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:19:00 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA236853939; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:18:59 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:18:59 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Women in Sci-Fi Look in the Oxford Chronology of SF, and you'll find one or two souch stories. There are also some in the old "Amazing" mag. What about stories with more than one main character? From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 00:19:09 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA66844; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:19:09 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA043433762; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:16:02 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:16:02 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Why I brought up SF vs. Fantasy Since this subject has provoked discussion, i'd like to explain why i brought it up. I work in a library where there is an SF section, but no fantasy section. All of the fantasy has "Science Fiction" stamped on the spines, and goes in the SF section. This really annoys me, because it seems to be implying, "What? Fantasy? Oh, that's just another kind of Sci Fi. Same difference." I was not saying that never the twain shall meet. However, i am offering this challenge: summarize a setting, and I will tell you whether it's fantasy or SF, and justify my answer. Blast away. From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 00:24:16 1995 Received: from bos1f.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA90966; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:24:16 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:24:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:24:15 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT John Campbell, in defining the difference between Astounding, his sf magazine, and Unknown, his fantasy magazine, said: "Stories for Astounding should be well-written, logical, and possible; stories for Unknown should be well-written and logical. In half a century, no one's said it better." -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 00:29:27 1995 Received: from bos1f.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA81039; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:29:27 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:29:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:29:25 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Women in Sci-Fi To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Yeah, I've done a lot of them. So have a lot of other writers. Chapter and verse on demand. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 00:31:48 1995 Received: from bos1g.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA66736; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:31:48 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:31:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:31:45 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Films/tv/written tie-ins and the field? To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I don't think these books have done the field any service. They certainly haven't helped new writers who refuse to work in someone else's universe. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 00:35:38 1995 Received: from bos1e.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA48073; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:35:38 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:35:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:35:28 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: written vs. films To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >>The Star Wars books, for example: Have you read them all?<< You must be kidding, right? I haven't read the Collected Little Lulu, either. >>Does it take more nebulously defined 'talent' to write in someone else's universe, or make up a boring mediocre one of your own?<< Well, that's certainly not a lopsided, loaded question, is it? I don't still beat my wife, either. >>Characters obviously grow and change. Luke becomes a master...<< Well, that puts fini to Eugene Gant and Robert E. Lee Prewitt; Luke becomes a master. Can't argue against deep, meaningful changes like that. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 00:38:01 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA41690; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:38:01 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA198325080; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:38:00 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:38:00 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: 2001 -- A Masterpiece OK, 2001 was a good movie. My problem with it (as I remember it now) was that it was so uninvolving (oh, very cerebral, but I wouldn't have minded some emotional involvement). And its stunning length certainly didn't help. This may be for others only a minor problem, but for me, a character so abstract and so symbolic was hard to care for. Sean D. [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 03:40:43 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA66266; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 03:40:43 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA20587; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 02:40:24 -0500 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 02:40:50 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Fantasy v. SF In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950625024010.10649D-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII John, technology has a profound impact on people's lives *now* that some are worried about. Does that make all books written about present day with cars etc. SF? :-) AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 03:45:21 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA86537; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 03:45:21 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA20652; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 02:45:02 -0500 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 02:45:28 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: written vs. films In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950625024149.10649E-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Mike, why is said noel uncreative when Gene Roddenberry didn't write any? (I think) Copying an imagined style? Very tricky, unless you are a postcognitive telepath, necromancer, or whatever the case may be then and now. If 5000 words is 2 hours, then 100000 is 40 hours. Not that big a deal, really? Is that really 20 times more stifling to creativity? Lots of others who have written other great stuff have written trek books. Or Jedi books. Obviously didn't stifle them too much. But, you just lost around 5% of the creativity they did, too, by your argument. ;-) AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place On Sat, 24 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > Marina: >> "If writing about borrowed characters in borrowed settings is > so stifling to creativity, why are you so excited about writing a Sherlock > Holmes story in another writer's style?" << > > Because 1) it took me 2 hours, not a huge chunk of my creative life; > 2) I've written over 50 novels and 150 stories in my own universes, so > I don't think my creativity is being stifled at this late date; 3) writing > one story of 5000 words in the style of Thorne Smith is -not- the same > as writing 100 uncreative novels in the imagined style of Gene Roddenbury. > > Trust this answers your question/objection/whatever. > > -- Mike Resnick > From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 03:47:23 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA85806; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 03:47:23 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA20791; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 02:47:03 -0500 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 02:47:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy (fwd) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950625024613.10649F-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, Sean, can't agree that fiction is something written that can't happen. This is obviously not true. Jules Verne a case in point for SF. Say you write a story about someone going on a trip. They do it later. etc. AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 03:53:27 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA66116; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 03:53:27 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA20828; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 02:53:08 -0500 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 02:53:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Babylon 5 books? In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950625025236.10649G-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Brenda, you mentioned there are three B5 novels. Are all three out now? Melissa and I were talking about this yesterday, and she has the first two. If there are three, we need to keep a lookout! :) AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 03:56:30 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA85850; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 03:56:30 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA20863; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 02:56:10 -0500 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 02:56:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Women in Sci-Fi In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950625025439.10649H-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Define sexual encounter? How about a couple of hundred Doctor Who books. Blake's 7. Lots of Star Trek. AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place On Sat, 24 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > Has anyone ever read a scinece fiction story where the protagnist is a female > and doesn't have a sexual encounter? This isn't a question of prejudice, but > curiosity. I've jsut written such a story, and thought of this while editing > it for submission. > From cstu Sun Jun 25 11:58:01 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA57600; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 11:58:01 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 11:57:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-1936459768-1968401469-804095878=:41707" This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to [log in to unmask] for more info. ---1936459768-1968401469-804095878=:41707 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 11:25:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "Eric A. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Message from the Virtual Management First a couple of general comments. Lately, there have been more and more postings on the SF-LIT that don't make a clear reference as to which message within each thread they are responding to. In the interest of clarity, if and when possible, please try to make a reference back to whatever message it is you are responding to. Secondly, take pity on poor Colleen our listmanager and try not to send dozens of messages or responses one right after the other. All of these messages, have to be approved and posted one-by-one by Colleen. If you can figure out a way to group your responses together, that would make all of our lives a lot easier. Thanks. EAJ A couple of my responses on SF and Fantasy differences follow as well as some information on steampunk: On Sun, 25 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > > Why can't they be SF? Stick a vampire in Gibson's sprawl. > > What do you have then? This definition is too narrow and > > purist. Gibson already stuck a vampire (or a sucker of life forces) in his own sprawl. See his short story collection BURNING CHROME. > Answer: You have SF. No sound definition of SF requires it to be free of > what we consider supernatural--after all, luke Skywalker used the Force, > while Deanna Troi is empathic(a restricted version of telepathy). The key > factor in this case is the Gibson's work takes place in the future. Except of course when Gibson's novels take place in the past like in the steampunk THE DIFFERENCE ENGINE co-written with Bruce Sterling. Incidentally, someone earlier asked what is steampunk? Loosely speaking it is cyberpunk or SF set in the 19th century or earlier where steam rather runs the machines. Take a look at Paul DiFillippo's recently published THE STEAMPUNK TRILOGY or try some of Tim Powers, K.W. Jeter, or others' SF set in the past. Anyways ... EAJ *-------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Eric A. Johnson | *OPINIONS MINE* | | Senior Exchange Specialist (Baltics & CIS) | | | & Recommending Officer for Science Fiction | Voice: (202) 707-9498 | | Exchange & Gift Division (COLL/E&G/EES) | FAX: (202) 707-2086 | | Library of Congress, LM 632 | Email: [log in to unmask] | | Washington, DC 20540-4240 USA | | *-------------------------------------------------------------------------* "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Philip K. Dick, 1928-1982 ---1936459768-1968401469-804095878=:41707-- From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 11:36:24 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA16199; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 11:36:24 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA288984584; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 11:36:24 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 11:36:24 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Defining SF/Fantasy I don't recall the source, but I believe that the best definition of Science Fiction that I have read is "If you remove the science from the story and there is no story left, then it is science fiction. For an example, consider Mary Shelley's _Frankenstein_." The quote is not exact, but the gist is there. From cstu Sun Jun 25 12:02:47 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA46799; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 12:02:47 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 12:02:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Magic vs supernatural Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It seems that in the discussion of SF vs. fantasy, you accept the supernatural as at least possible, but not magic. Magic, however, is considered part of the supernatural by many people, such as Wiccans. And I find it difficult to separate magic and what is now referred to as psionics. Merlin did magic when he moved Stonehedge, but would it now be referred to as telekinetics? As to story lines, where do you place post-apocalyptic works, aka Road Warrior settings? It is in the future, but technology is definitely not more advanced. Here is a series of books I read, but cannot remember the title. It is set in England far after a nuclear war takes place. You follow the adventures of 3 children, one of whom turns out to be Merlin of King Arthur fame, out of his deep sleep. Yes, Merlin does have powers, but the setting is definitely in our future. What do you think? Colleen _________________________________________________________________________ Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian [log in to unmask] Library of Congress (202) 707-4132 Washington, DC 20540-4861 FAX: (202) 707-4142 These opinions are mine, Mine MINE! __________________________________________________________________________ From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 13:10:05 1995 Received: from elvis.vnet.net by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA39523; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 13:10:05 -0400 Received: from fredrickgrimm.vnet.net by vnet.net with SMTP id AA19353 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for <[log in to unmask]>); Sun, 25 Jun 1995 12:10:00 -0500 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 12:10:00 -0500 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: [log in to unmask] X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: [log in to unmask] From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Alternate Histories and SF [log in to unmask] said ... >Question: Is the "Alternate History" story taking place in an alternate >history at a higher technology level than our own? if so, it is SF. If not, >assuming that it contains no magic, it is neither SF nor fantasy--it's just a >creatively twisted setting. > Do we need to also ask about the event or factor that caused the alternate timeline? If the difference was technology based (electricity discovered sooner or cancer cured in the 1800's) would this be SF? Or, if the event is more minor (fear of already-existing atomic bomb dissuaded Japan from attacking Pearl Harbor) can we still call this SF? I think so, but I do see your point. Wasn't Fatherland marketed as a mainstream book as well as SF? I think I've seen Turtledove's Guns Of The South in the mainstream section. Any rules, definitions and criteria you give to SF will be froth with examples of how those rules have been broken - that's what makes SF so much fun to talk about. I will not attempt to define or limit it. I don't know what Science Fiction Is, but I know what I like. Now that I think about it, GOTS may not be a good example since it involves a post Civil War world with a few PC's and an AK-47 plant. And air conditioning. And dehydrated food. And nitroglycerine pills. Fred Grimm ==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==`==~== Fredrick Grimm [log in to unmask] Someday - I'll hav a sig of My Very Own ...then you'll ALL be sorry! HA HAHAhahahahaaa!!!!! From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 14:20:20 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA66831; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 14:20:20 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA007164420; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 14:20:20 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 14:20:20 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Ancient fantasy literature Couldn't all mythological liturature be considered fantasy. From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 14:22:14 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA39462; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 14:22:14 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA007854534; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 14:22:14 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 14:22:14 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Fantasy and SF I'm new to this group so I might be repeating someone else. If so, sorry to waste your time. I would say that the basic difference is that in (good) SF, the improbable/impossible happening are (at least partially) supported by scientific explaination. Whereas in fantasy we must simply take everything on faith. Another way of saying this - in SF we put our faith in the science behind the event(s), in fantasy, the event(s) themselves. From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 14:24:26 1995 Received: from condor.CC.UMontreal.CA by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA87113; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 14:24:26 -0400 Received: from eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA (eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA [132.204.10.20]) by condor.CC.UMontreal.CA with ESMTP id OAA23822 (8.6.11/IDA-1.6 for <[log in to unmask]>); Sun, 25 Jun 1995 14:23:29 -0400 Received: by eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA (950221.405.SGI.8.6.10/5.17) id OAA07902; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 14:23:28 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 14:23:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]> Reply-To: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Abominations done in public libraries (was: Why I brought up SF vs. Fantasy )(and did not leave Harry's all night hamburgers-yet) To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Sun, 25 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > Since this subject has provoked discussion, i'd like to explain why i brought > it up. I work in a library where there is an SF section, but no fantasy > section. All of the fantasy has "Science Fiction" stamped on the spines, and > goes in the SF section. This really annoys me, because it seems to be > implying, "What? Fantasy? Oh, that's just another kind of Sci Fi. Same > difference." This brings us to some of the most interesting abominations perpetrated by librarians. Municipal librarians usually. Damon Knight defined SF as what he points at when he says SF. Librarians in municipal libraries define SF as what they have chucked in a section of the library reserved for SF. They do the same for detective stories usually. In all of these places (there are many exceptions where SF is kept with all other books, like the Montreal central and branch libraries) somebody at some point decides on which book will get a little sticker with SF on it in big letters, or a sticker with a logo like a star and a spaceship. This is a fascinating classification exercise with as many solid testimonials all over North America as potential paleontogical digging sites. There are as many criteria as there are librarians or library clerks over the ages of any given library. Reconstructing the standards is, for a librarian interested in the arcane art of classification as well as SF, as fascinating as reassembling a diplodocus skelton is for a paleontologist. Most of the time the persons putting the stickers on have but a limited knowledge of SF. They never have the time to examine each book in detail with several SF encyclopedias at hand. In fact they do not have the time to even read a bit of the story to get a general idea of what is going on, so being SF-litarate would not help a lot. So they classify by author sometimes, by publisher sometimes and by the indications a publisher will put on the cover of the book. But not all the time. Asimov is a SF author, so a book that says "Asimov's mysteries" sometimes gets chucked in the SF section instead of the detective/spy/thriller section. Len Deighton is a spy/thriller writer so a really good alternate History like his _SS-GB_ usually gets chucked in the spy/thriller section instead of the SF section. Thomas Pynchon is considered as a Great Writer so _Gravity's_Rainbow_ which is more larded with Science than most SF stories, gets chucked in the general fiction collection. The reverse of these three examples can or will occur in any other library. Next to these massive perversions which occur on a daily basis and are all there for us to gaze at for a long time to come, things like chucking all the fantasy in the SF section seem rather minor. An interesting subset of the whole phenomenon, yes, but not something that should be looked at in isolation from the "SF mark'em and park'em" syndrome. Bookstores also create categories such as "Science Fiction" or "Fantasy" and sometimes lump the two together in a big F & SF section, and you can also find in them the sort of mismatches I mentioned above. However, bookstores are set up for profit and staffed with salespersons, while libraries are staffed with public servants who are out there to spread Culture and Knowledge and push back the frontiers of Ignorance with the help of their sacred tools (the hefty volumes of the Dewey Decimal Classification, Library of Congress Subject headings and a few other sacred texts like the A.L.A. filing guide) and the guidance of a tradition which is usually underestimated or taken for granted. Bookstores operate in competition with each other while all libraries theoretically work together with common tools (the DeweyDecimal in most public libraries and the Library of Congress classification in University and research libraries to name but two) in presenting books in an orderly and useful fashion to Users. It is because of all this emphasis on common tools, on order and method that the regrouping of books in a "SF" section seems so perverse at times. And so interesting. You think you have read about the most gruesome of mutants yet? You think you have seen the most bizarre description of aliens ever to have lived under a distant star? Just compare the contents of the "SF" section of the public libraries of two different towns, and then you will see what aliens and mutants really are. Au revoir! DE: Alain Vaillancourt [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 14:57:03 1995 Received: from umailsrv1.umd.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA54460; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 14:57:03 -0400 Received: by umailsrv1.UMD.EDU (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA26567; Sun, 25 Jun 95 14:57:02 -0400 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Date: Sun, 25 Jun 95 14:57 EDT From: [log in to unmask] (cb52) Subject: Re: Re: Women in Sci-Fi To: [log in to unmask] In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> > >On Sat, 24 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > > >For interests sake, try finding a few contemporary sf works where women >are *not* considered to be "breeders"--most of the dystopian stuff I'm >working with features such scenarios (difficult to narrow the choices >down to a workable #). OK, I recognize that's an overstatement [please >don't waste band-width listing umpity-zillion examples where it is not >true], but there are a *lot* of examples of 80s writers exploring the >issue (i.e. Wilhelm, Atwood, Piercy, Elgin...). > >On that note, Joanna Russ has written a great story (name escapes me, >'bout 10 years old, sorta a cliches from outer-space thing), and one >character is sifting thru the slush pile while moaning "if I have to read >*one* more story about weird ways to get pregnant..." Ok I won't. But this is not jus an overstatement, it is a /huge/ overstatement. I would say that only a sub-set of SF novels view women as "breeders". C. Douglas Baker E-mail: [log in to unmask] [log in to unmask] From cstu Mon Jun 26 07:34:39 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA41276; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 07:34:39 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 07:34:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Guns of the South Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I found the description of _Guns of the South_ and the technology listed very interesting. During the Civil War, dehydrated food was in existance and was issued to the Northern troops. Granted, it was horrible; the compressed vegetable blocks were call desiccated vegetables, but referred to by the soldiers as desecrated vegetables. Air conditioning was also invented before the war, although not very cost effectively. I wonder if the other items existed in primitive form also. Colleen _________________________________________________________________________ Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian [log in to unmask] Library of Congress (202) 707-4132 Washington, DC 20540-4861 FAX: (202) 707-4142 These opinions are mine, Mine MINE! __________________________________________________________________________ From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 15:42:14 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA85904; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 15:42:14 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA064189334; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 15:42:14 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 15:42:14 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Fantasy books? As the issue of SF vs Fantasy has been brought up and heatedly debated, I thought this would be a good time to mention a book that was just given to me. The book is _Fantasy the 100 best books_ by James Cawthorn and Michael Moorcock (Carroll & Graf Publishers, Inc, New York, 1988). The introduction states that: "All fiction is fantasy. ...For a while, as popular fiction burgeoned under the demands of a newly literate public, the term was restricted to a sub-catagory of stories which dealt with atavistic fears and allegedly discredited beliefs...in the end, all such lists are highly personal and, as it turned out, the choices are mainly of one person..." (pg 8-9) Cawthorn's definition of Fantasy is interesting, although difficult to agree with. I'm not sure what he means by a 'newly literate public' and as for being resricted to primitive fear and discredited beliefs...well, I'm sure we can all come up with examples of novels that refute that. And, the reference to the term being used 'for a while'...I assume Cawthorn is informing us that the term is no longer in such use? (rather shocking news to all of the folks on this list, I'm sure). However, the comment about this list being the choices of one person connect back to the canon fodder discussion we had earlier - because you can't expect universal perfection from just one person's opinion, right? Now, here's the really interesting part, this book suggests 100 novels in the (supposedly) Fantasy genre, with a short description of the plot to help entice the reader to look for it. This list includes:_Frankenstien_, _A Christmas Carol_, _Moby Dick_, _Wuthering Heights_, _Dracula_, _The Turn of the Screw_, _Tarzan of the Apes_, _Conan the Conquerer_, _The Lord of the Rings_, _Rosemary's Baby_, _A Wizard of Earthsea_, _Red Shift_ and lots and lots of titles I've never heard of. Some of the above listed novels I have a difficult time placeing in a fantasy catagory, for instance, _Frankenstien_ is SF, _Wuthering Heights_ is a Victorian Romance (with some elements of the fantastic, granted, but not a Fantasy per se), and _Rosemary's Baby_ is horror. (all of this is IMHO) Now, I would recomend this book to anyone looking for something to read because the summeries are concise (about 2 pages) and (as far as I can tell) accurate. But the lumping of all of these works under the heading of 'Fantasy'? I believe the title would have been better stated if it had read 'My 100 favorite books'. But, perhaps someone else has seen this compilation and is of a different opinion? Adora [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 16:17:32 1995 Received: from caerlas.demon.co.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA75666; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 16:17:32 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 20:51:02 GMT From: [log in to unmask] (Patricia Reynolds) Reply-To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Alternate Histories and SF X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Lines: 20 In message <[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask] writes: > Quoting [log in to unmask] > >Could you tell me more about those "Alternate Histories" you were referring > >to? They seem to be the lone exception. > ... > I also woudl like to say that that altenrate histories are not the sole > domain of sci-fi. > ... Another example, this time of alternate history in fantasy, are the works of Diana Wynne Jones, where there is no scientific explanation of why there are worlds with different histories - they just split off from one another. But on some of them there is more magic than on others. Not all of the books are set in the same universe. Titles include _Witch Week_, _The Homeward Bounders_, and _The Witches of Caprona_. -- Patricia Reynolds [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 16:51:47 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA48936; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 16:51:47 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA258893506; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 16:51:46 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 16:51:46 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Women in SF/More 2001 [log in to unmask] asked about women protagonists in SF that don't have sexual encounters. Regrettably, women protagonists are in the (small) minority and I dare say most those find their way to a sexual encounter of some description at some point in the plot {judging from my limited literary experience}. Don't you just hate that "obligatory" nonsense? However, one splendid, recent, and pleasently written exception is David Brin's _Glory Season_. Nifty societal setting to boot. If I could wield adjectives like Brin, my postings would be signif- icantly more entertaining. Oh well... Regarding A.C. Clarke's _2001_, Sean D. complained about the characters being too symbolic to care about on a human level (hope I got that right.) Moonwatcher and Bowman symbolize humanity (past and present, quite obviously.) Color me corney but if one cannot work up some support for this human's race, as a whole, wouldn't that call into suspicion any sort of "caring" such a personage may profess for a supposedly sympathetic member of said race? -Phil Rosen From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 17:17:51 1995 Received: from bos1h.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23139; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 17:17:51 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 17:17:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 17:17:49 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Pulp books series - good or bad? To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT My pal Kris Rusch made a valid point...for CHILDREN. But when we talk Trek and Wookiecrap, we're talking about books for the adult (or teen, which takes up the same rack space) market...and it's -here- where they shut the new writers out (unless said writers are willing to stifle their creativity and tell Trek and Wookie stories), and virtually murder the midlist. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 17:18:10 1995 Received: from Alice-Thurman.tenet.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA95350; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 17:18:10 -0400 Received: (from teriw@localhost) by Alice-Thurman.tenet.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA18159; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 16:18:09 -0500 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 16:18:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa J Warren <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Alternate Histories and SF In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII One other example of an Alternate History was FATHERLAND (in which Hitler is still alive in the 1960's, Joe Kennedy, Sr. is president of the US and the US and Germany are at a stalemate from WWII). While I didn't read the book itself, I saw the HBO movie adaptation and thought, frankly, it stunk. There was a "pivotal scene" in the last 15 minutes (:::spoiler time!:::) in which Kennedy, Sr. looks at several photographs of the concentration camps and, therefore, refuses to meet with Hitler. I really thought this was a mischaracterization of Kennedy, when real world historians have thoroughly recorded his early life as a bootleg whiskey runner and an anti-Semitic. More than likely, the REAL Mr. Kennedy would've still met Hitler and would have shrugged off the photographs as Jewish propaganda or somesuch. I can only hope the book was better researched than the HBO presentation. Gary L. Warren :[] On Sat, 24 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > Quoting [log in to unmask] > >Could you tell me more about those "Alternate Histories" you were referring > >to? They seem to be the lone exception. > > An alternate history story is one where some crucial point in hsitory is > changed or deleted, and the author pursues the possiblity of the results. An > excellent example is a story written by Robert Heinlein (I unofrtunatly > forget the title) where the protagnist is actaully working on an alternate > history story. The twist is, the story Heinlien writes in set in a wrold > where the Roman empire didn't collapse. > > I also woudl like to say that that altenrate histories are not the sole > domain of sci-fi. For an example, see the movie _Forrest Gump_. In the > movie, Forrest is the catalyst for several of histories key events. Although > it doesn't change the outcome of history, it is an alternate reality, as > there was no real Gump. The novel is an even borader alternate history, as > Gump actually does things that never happend, and minor changes in history > result. > > > > From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 17:23:02 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA57783; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 17:23:02 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA025825382; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 17:23:02 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 17:23:02 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy The obvious way in which fantasy can draw from the past, the one most seen (and the only one I can think of, except alternate histories, and I'm not sure what they are), is to use the traditions, philosophies, beliefs, and myths of the past. Sean D. From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 17:23:06 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23239; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 17:23:06 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA126555199; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 17:19:59 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 17:19:59 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy Well, Sean, can't agree that fiction is something written that can't happen. This is obviously not true. Jules Verne a case in point for SF. Say you write a story about someone going on a trip. They do it later. etc. I've never read any fiction that had taken place in reality. I mean all of it. It's nitpicking, but it's true. SF, with its impossible assertion that this IS the future, is going to be VERY different from reality. The only real problem I see with my definition is how you draw from the future. Maybe SF draws from what doesn't exist. Have to think about it. Sean D. From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 17:30:24 1995 Received: from bos1g.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA81185; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 17:30:24 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 17:30:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 17:30:21 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: written vs. films To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT True, Roddenbury didn't write any Trekbooks. But as any writer who had to deal with his company will be happy to tell you, he exercised even more control over what could and couldn't happen in a Trekbook than in a Trek tv show. Some, like George Effinger, simple refused to do it and never handed their manuscripts in. Obviously you've never written a novel...but let me tell you: the fact that a fast, competent writer can do a 5,000 word story in 2 hours does NOT mean he can write a 100,000-word novel in 40 hours. A novel is a far more complex piece of work, and if he's attacking it with any degree of literary ambition whatsoever, it's going to take MONTHS, not hours. Also, I do not hold myself up as a typical writer. Except for perhaps Barry Malzberg and possibly Kris Rusch, I'm the fastest in the business. MANY short stories take weeks, not hours; some take months. My Hugo winners took 2 and 3 nights respectively, and my current Nebula-winning novella for one week; I've known writers to spend half a year producing the same number of pages, and not winning anything in the process. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 18:20:34 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA41537; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 18:20:34 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA126298834; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 18:20:34 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 18:20:34 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Fantasy and SF (Technology in) I don't feel that a writer can't put a dragon and a spaceship in the same story. I just want to make it clear that all sci fi cannot be grouped as fantasy, nor should all fantasy be grouped as SF(as is done at my library). From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 18:20:51 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA39534; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 18:20:51 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA227048664; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 18:17:44 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 18:17:44 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Steampunk Steampunk is SF, unless it is at or below the present technology level, in which case it is neither. From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 18:20:56 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23166; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 18:20:56 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA034198856; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 18:20:56 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 18:20:56 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy Everyone who says that SF must be dependent on Science should see the Star Wars trilogy. It is SF, although there is nothing scientific about it. SF got its name at a time when it was a vehicle for predicting the future. Let's face the facts: not all visions of the future have solid scientific bases. They are still SF. From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 18:21:03 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA72846; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 18:21:03 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA127048862; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 18:21:02 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 18:21:02 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Magic vs supernatural If it is in the future, it is SF, and that includes post-apocalyptic. From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 18:22:03 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA72866; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 18:22:03 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA122248923; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 18:22:03 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 18:22:03 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy No, what I meant was that SF is above the tech level or date of *the time at which it is written*. Thus, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea remains SF. From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 18:22:47 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23218; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 18:22:47 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA123188967; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 18:22:47 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 18:22:47 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy Are you saying that all SF must be possible? If so, have you ever seen "Star Wars"? From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 19:17:05 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA27165; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 19:17:05 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA223822225; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 19:17:05 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 19:17:05 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, et... >What about "Hook" or "The Lion King" ? Both fantasy. And I think there are some good fantasy films, (if not perfect, then at least of a higher quality than the SF I've seen). Sean D. From [log in to unmask] Sun Jun 25 19:25:25 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA27277; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 19:25:25 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA241022725; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 19:25:25 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 19:25:25 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: More on Douglas Adams... Either that or Agrajag just saw someone that looked Like Arthur. From shal Sun Jun 25 22:51:10 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA93548; Sun, 25 Jun 1995 22:51:10 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 22:51:10 -0400 (EDT) From: "Stephanie A. Hall" <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: women protagonists In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Re: the query about stories with women protagonists that do not include sexual encounters. There are probably lots of examples these days. Some I can think of: Connie Willis's _Doomsday Book_, also her _Uncharted Territory_ (sort of a comedy of errors in the sexual aspects of the story, so maybe it counts and maybe it doesn't), Geoffery Landis' "A Walk on the Moon," Ursula LeGuin, "The Day Before the Revolution" (and probably several others), Cherry's _Pride of Channur_ (if you will count an alien female). Are those the sorts of stories you had in mind? Stephanie ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Stephanie A. Hall, Archivist The Library of Congress American Folklife Center preserves and houses Library of Congress countless ideas and opinions. Washington, DC 20540-8100 Those expressed here [log in to unmask] are my own. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 00:53:31 1995 Received: from alpha.isc.rit.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA54099; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 00:53:31 -0400 Received: from [137.123.200.6] (137.123.200.6) by ritvax.isc.rit.edu (PMDF V5.0-3 #8168) id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 00:54:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 00:54:44 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] (Chris Minnella) Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <v01510101ac13eb0b4239@[137.123.200.1]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >Eric, [log in to unmask]: > >>There is a directors cut version of Bladerunner out there. NO voice over, >>different ending. This is the way the story was supposed to go according >to >>the original script but the director was overuled by the studio because it >>wasn't going over well in the screen testing. > > >I've a suspicion, very likely wrong, of course, that the matter isn't that >simple. My vague recollection is that this "Director's Cut" was, even then, >not actually what Ridley Scott had had in mind. I'll try to find some stuff >that I think I have on this. May be thinking of a totally different >"Director's Cut", of course. Or just making it up. Pretty sure, though, >that I have an account of what this cut actually IS, which indicates that >it's still not understood to be the "definitive thing". I'll root around... > > Dave Well, from what I know, you are both probaby right. There are more than 6 versions of Blade Runner. In my opinion the film is brilliant. I personally prefer the cut without voice overs or happy ending, and with Rutger saying "fucker" instead of "father" (I think that is enough to identify the correct cut...). To truly appreciate the movie I think you should read Phillip K. Dick's novel _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ that it was based on. There are a few excellent Web sites out there on Blade Runner, and on one the differences between all the cuts are spelled out. The real question is of course, "is Deckard a replicant?" I say no, but there are all sorts of interesting theorys. Hope this helps some. ______________________________________________________________________________ Chris Minnella at RIT | A chicken is an egg's way [log in to unmask] | of making more eggs. From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 01:35:05 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA75542; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 01:35:05 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA240394717; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 01:31:57 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 01:31:57 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: 2001 and Blade Runner DANES4 wrote: >> OK, 2001 was a good movie. My problem with it (as I remember it now) was >> that it was so uninvolving (oh, very cerebral, but I wouldn't have minded >> some emotional involvement). And its stunning length certainly didn't help. >> This may be for others only a minor problem, but for me, a character so >> abstract and so symbolic was hard to care for. I can't think of any other movie, SF or not, ever, that captiaved my (and many, many others') attention the way 2001 did. Further, the film accomplished that task without the aid of a significant evil presence, gaudy love interest or amazingly involved story line. This film is the very embodiment of pure, pure science fiction. This film is about life, questions, humanity and the force that creates humanity, thought. To dismiss it as cerebral, too long or too abstract (if you want to see real abstraction, read the first chapter of the Silmarillion by J.R.R. Tolkein) indicates a pre-defined expectation for what Science Fiction ought to be. Don't get me wrong, I love the big SF hits (movies and otherwise,) but this film, along with Star Wars and Blade Runner define a triumverate of SF movie masterpieces without which the SF realm would not be complete. As for Blade Runner, here is a vote for the voice-over version. The directors cut gives the film a more "gritty" attitude, but I don't think the film needed to be more "gritty." The voice-overs add a depth to the film (this may sound bizarre considering my last two paragraphs,) without which the audience is left to make up. For this film, already violent and edgy, I think that the voice-over calms the tone of the film to allow for a focus on the central theme. I realize that I am opening up an almost closed can of worms, potentially on both subjects, but I am interested in other ideas and viewpoints. From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 01:58:47 1995 Received: from caerlas.demon.co.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA82120; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 01:58:47 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 22:30:22 GMT From: [log in to unmask] (Patricia Reynolds) Reply-To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Dahl interactives X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Lines: 23 I mentioned in an earlier post that I am currently developing Dahl interactives at Buckinghamshire County Museum, and Andy Sawyer asked to hear more. The Dahl Children's Gallery is to be sited in a converted coach-house on the site of the BCM. Downstairs, the Dahl characters invite the visitor to explore their world. Things like James' Giant Peach, which will have video microscopes to see insects. Upstairs (via a Giant Glass Elevator, of course) there will be a gallery which can be used as a theatre, or for crafts, but also for word games and challenges (one challenge I am working on at the moment is two things in our collections which make a third (toad+stool) and two things with the same name (cloche). There is also a quiet reading room. I think Andy would appreciate the section on personal hygene ... introduced by the Twits. The _really_ good news is we just heard that we have a quarter of a million pounds from the National Lottery. -- Patricia Reynolds [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 01:58:58 1995 Received: from caerlas.demon.co.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA75724; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 01:58:58 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 22:48:30 GMT From: [log in to unmask] (Patricia Reynolds) Reply-To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Ancient fantasy literature X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Lines: 27 Adora wrote: > Along these same lines is _The Metamorphosis_, I don't remember the author's > name (perhaps someone else can fill this in for me - it's been a couple of > years since I checked out a copy), but the plot involves a man being turned > into a donkey by the gods (it's either the Greek or Roman Panthenon - like I > said, it's been a few years) and does interesting things (like having sex > with a nobelman's daughter - a girl who is *very* upset and hurt when the > donkey returns in the form of a human years later). > I believe very vague hints about what it's about and why the students should > *not* read it would make it difficult for the local library to keep it's > copies on hand. > [:-) You aren't thinking of Ovid's _Metamorphoses_, but of Lucius Apuleius' _The Transformations of Lucius Apuleius of Madaura_, or more usually, _The Golden Ass_. It is a truely marvelous book. The Robert Graves translation (available in a Penguin or Folio Society edition) reads like a novel (and easily as accessible as nineteenth century authors). I have no idea what the Latin scholars think of Graves' translation - but it is at the very least a great retelling of Apuleius' tale. The donkey episode is only an episode ... there is also a telling of the Cupid and Psyche myth which is only equalled by CS Lewis's, and a mystical sequence with Isis which is very beautiful. -- Pat Reynolds [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 02:14:27 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA82007; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 02:14:27 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA101127267; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 02:14:27 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 02:14:27 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy (fwd) The thing is, some of the topics are neither. For example, let's take Star Trek. Is it SF or F ? IMHO, it is F. And please, do not reply in a form "I hate TV, it's not real sf, it's all bogus", I _KNOW_ how you feel :-) From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 02:14:30 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA82023; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 02:14:30 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA195157269; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 02:14:29 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 02:14:29 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Magic vs supernatural >I find it difficult to separate magic and what is now referred to as >psionics. Merlin did magic when he moved Stonehedge, but would it now be >referred to as telekinetics? The thing is, as magic becomes more widely explored, certain areas of it get separated from the original concept, receiving new names. The same thing happened with AI: First, it was AI. Then, AI AND genetic algorithms (well, maybe in different order...) Then, AI, genetic algorithms AND neural networks... AI gets smaller and smaller, being separated into little pieces we know how to use. From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 02:14:55 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA54135; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 02:14:55 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA195457294; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 02:14:54 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 02:14:54 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Why I brought up SF vs. F... >I was not saying that never the twain shall meet. However, i am offering >this challenge: summarize a setting, and I will tell you whether it's fantasy >or SF, and justify my answer. Blast away. Impossible. It is not possible to know a book or a movie or whatever to be F or SF by setting _alone_. Example: Simak. Most of his books start of as SF and go into F... "The Goblin Reservation". From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 02:14:57 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA72833; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 02:14:57 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA234407297; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 02:14:57 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 02:14:57 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Films/tv/written tie-ins ... >I don't think these books have done the field any service. They >certainly haven't helped new writers who refuse to work in someone >else's universe. I kind of agree here... No matter how good they are, tie-in books are just that - clones. From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 04:46:33 1995 Received: from mail.sni.co.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA38330; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 04:46:33 -0400 Return-Path: [log in to unmask] Received: from squidgy.sni.co.uk (squidgy.sni.co.uk [137.223.5.110]) by innergate.sni.co.uk (8.6.11/8.6.6) with SMTP id JAA23806 for <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 09:01:34 GMT Received: by squidgy.sni.co.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 95 09:48:34 UTC From: Mark Woolrich <[log in to unmask]> To: "sf-lit%loc.gov" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: Women in Sci-Fi Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 09:45:00 UTC Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 15 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 -> ->Has anyone ever read a scinece fiction story where the protagnist is a female ->and doesn't have a sexual encounter? This isn't a question of prejudice, but ->curiosity. I've jsut written such a story, and thought of this while editing ->it for submission. -> I'm pretty sure Greg Bear's female lead, Mary Choy, in, I think, Queen Of Angels, didn't have such an encounter. markw From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 06:34:39 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA54223; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 06:34:39 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:34:28 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 95 11:34:25 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: SF v. Fantasy Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 11:25:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 101 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 DENNIS ABBLITT UNBSJ <[log in to unmask]>: > I see two problems with all of this discussion on the >difference between sf and fantasy. > > 1) Most people seem to try to make each work inclusively one or >the other. Frequently there are elements of both as well as other >genres in each work. I agree. For some reason few people seem concerned to divide up, say, SF, romance and murder mystery - three "genres" (according to some taxonomies) that are regularly represented in a single novel. > 2) There are too many concrete or descriptively specific >definitions e.g. technological, scientific, magic, mediaeval. >Personally, I like the definition, which I vaguely recall comes from >one of the academic SF authors (maybe it was Jack Williamson, Jim >Gunn, Lloyd Biggle or even Ike Asimov) during the late 60's or early >70"s. Science fiction is the literature of the probable, fantasy the >literature of the improbable and supernatural the literature of >the impossible (or maybe it was the other way round). Sounds very Asimov, that, if he could be bothered writing it down. May I try to complicate the issue further? Most of the discussion so far has concerned the overt subject-matter as the basis for distinguishing SF from Fantasy, and to me, for the way I do my reading., this seems to miss something about it. I believe that it is important to some, at least, either to get a distinction sorted or to arrive at a satisfactory idea of why this can't be done. The words are used to mean different things, after all. We just don't quite see what those things are yet. Like George Effinger, I would hate to see the butterfly killed and mounted - its purpose is to fly about the place, not to stay still for our benefit. All the same, I see nothing wrong with trying to decide which butterfly it was that just zipped past, since we did (often, at least) find ourselves naming it at the time. I think that I can maybe offer a distinction as valid as anyone else's, and a couple of thoughts towards why it is that we all seem to have these variously useful but personally distinctive views on the matter. My little suggestion is, basically, that the perspective of a given piece might help us to see what we mean by SF and what by Fantasy, and my humble offering is a broad and woolly distinction between stuff concerned mostly with the inner journey of a particular character (or several - who knows) in a more or less unreal setting (and regularly explored through a story about really travelling around in that setting), and stuff concerned primarily with the whys and wherefores (physical, social, economic...) of the setting itself - maybe explored through the progress of one or more individuals through it. Knowing that there would be counter-examples all over the place, I would nevertheless offer the former as what we might intuitively call Fantasy, other things being equal, and the latter as SF. This might help us peg a lot of things - while of course failing with many others. Doesn't get us very far with some of Lem, for instance (The Investigation, for one). Personally, despite the incredibly detailed and logical setting of LotR, I read it as an account of the transformations of the central characters. It's clearly Fantasy for me. Dune, on the other hand, is superficially about some INCREDIBLE personal transformations - but it seems more concerned, in fact, with the workings of the huge culture in which these things come about. Someone has suggested The Birthgrave as a book which looks like Fantasy until it suddenly turns into SF. Under my own simplification I would (usefully, to me if to no-one else) be able to get a start on why it seems to me to be, overall, pretty much straight Fantasy. The same goes for The Electric Forest, incidentally. Mindswap is, in a way, sheer SF in that everything that happens to our poor hero is (kind of) explained. In the end, though, this is no more than a series of hooks on which to hang observations about the guy himself. For the purposes of my little starting-point, then, it's no more SF than The Pilgrim's Progress. (There's a potential difficulty with explicitly dealing with allegory in this context as well, though, so maybe that's not such a great example. Silverlock, then. Oops - same problem...) We do run up against a problem regarding authorial intention, though. I wouldn't immediately know what to do with the Mordant's Need books, for instance. It appears that they're meant to be about the development and salvation of the two central characters as they trundle through a set of weird experiences. Then again it seems to me that the books totally fail on this count while actually doing a pretty good job on the logic of the basic situation. Adopting this kind of approach, one has at least to wonder whether it's right to go with the author's apparent intentions or with one's instinctive reaction. I believe that the latter is correct, because for me this is NOT a butterfly-pinning exercise with a view to future classification; it's a reflection in hindsight concerning the fact that I feel inexplicably confident, often, in knowing why I personally say "SF" or "Fantasy", or "well, a bit of this, a bit of that" when I point to something. I think that this kind of thing underlies the other distinctions offered, even the ones attempting to set objective standards of categorisation, whichever features are chosen as the basis for the distinction in each case. It seems to me that there are by tacit agreement two broad tendencies within this stuff. Over years we reach our own understandings of the difference, and then wind up delving back into all that experience for a more or less coherent expression of it. No wonder no-one's idea of it seems terribly close to anyone else's. Does this seem at all useful, to the discussion if not to anyone else as a model? Dave From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 06:49:00 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA66235; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 06:49:00 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:48:51 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 95 11:48:49 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: written vs. films Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 11:35:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 17 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Mike Resnick: >3) writing >one story of 5000 words in the style of Thorne Smith is -not- the same >as writing 100 uncreative novels in the imagined style of Gene Roddenbury. I'm sure that's true. Still, since you mention Star Trek, I have taken pleasure in watching Barbara Hambly do something actually interesting with characters and a setting that for many reasons (principally changeless ubiquity and hence infuriated boredom) I wouldn't otherwise mind seeing wiped from the face of everything. I don't really know whether that agrees with you or not... Dave From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 07:08:58 1995 Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA84025; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 07:08:58 -0400 Received: from uxa.liv.ac.uk by mail.liv.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:07:57 +0100 From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: CLARKEAN MAGIC To: [log in to unmask] Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:07:55 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" at Jun 22, 95 06:12:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1406 In the last mail D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple said: > > > > I'm confused now (well, again...). I just had a chance to snap a quick look > at Report on Planet Three. I didn't find the quote, though I do still > suspect it's in there somewhere. However, I think it said it was published > in 1972 or 1973. Curiously, if that's the case, it DOES contain a plug for > "my book, "Profiles of the Future"". How come, if that was 1974? Answer - > 1974 wasn't the first edition, presumably, in which case the quote is older > still. Or I'm wrong about the date of Report..., in which case I'm wasting > everyone's time again... > > Dave > "Profiles" was first published in 1962, containing essays written 1959-1961. The "THird Law" quotation is in a footnote to the essay "Hazards of Prophecy: THe failure of Imagination" and refers to "the French edition of this book" having cited "Clarke's second Law". Clarke goes on to say that he has "since formulated a third", and gives it in the wording I used. I don't think this IS the first appearance in print of the Law. -- Andy Sawyer, Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK 0151-794-2733/2696 [log in to unmask] http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html "Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 07:10:07 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA54439; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 07:10:07 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:08:36 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 95 12:08:33 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: Tie-In Novels Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 11:59:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 35 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Brenda Daverin, [log in to unmask]: >Speaking to the book tie-ins to SF movies and TV shows, I will go on record >as being a willing buyer of the Babylon 5 novels and comics, but ONLY those, >not the other media tie-ins. Why? They're important to the story arc Mr. >Straczynski is telling. He isn't allowing extranea to bear his creation's >logo, unlike the Trek or Star Wars megaseries. He's also keeping them to a >minimum. There have been, and likely only will be, three B5 novels and a four >or five-part comic miniseries. Rather civilized of him, I'd say. I'd support this one. As far as I'm concerned the guy is a real (not to mention talented) writer trying quite successfully to do something new and important for SF in the difficult and unforgiving world of serial TV. He passes out stories for around a third of the episodes, to be written up by selected guest writers, and writes the rest himself. He also keeps an eye on anything else produced (and comes down VERY hard on anyone putting out anything unauthorised) while keeping the volume low overall. (He's writing about half the comics as well, by the way.) The story will take five years to tell, assuming it gets picked up for its final two seasons (just has been for the third). This is the nature of the project. Personally I'm avid to see how this project survives, and pleased to see what it is trying to do to and for the genre. Actually while I'm here I may as well confess to having read Steve Perry's Aliens novels. But only because they are perfect, mindless train-journey material. On the whole I share the general condemnation of spinoff efforts (including these!), with a few considered exceptions. Even if an outlet apparently attracts dross it can still be one whose availability real people try to use on occasion. Dave From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 07:16:59 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA64202; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 07:16:59 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:16:37 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 95 12:16:35 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: Women in Sci-Fi Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 12:06:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 19 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 >Has anyone ever read a scinece fiction story where the protagnist is a female >and doesn't have a sexual encounter? This isn't a question of prejudice, but >curiosity. I've jsut written such a story, and thought of this while editing >it for submission. Alien... Even stranger for an "adult" film than a novel, I thought at the time. Then again we're heavily into motherhood and things here. Maybe that kind of counts. If it's a short story, there must be loads. Asimov's Susan Calvin. Errmm, other people... From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 07:24:57 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA60120; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 07:24:57 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:23:52 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 95 12:23:50 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Fantasy and SF (Technology in) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 12:12:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 26 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Ed McKnight - [log in to unmask]: >With that in mind, let me say that the most profoundly >thoughtful "definition" of SF I've ever read was Norman Spinrad's: ". . . a >literary technique for re-creating the lost innocence of fantasy, for >resurrecting the reader's true belief in the tale of wonder, in the >possibility of the fantastic, in the notion that his universe and the >universe of the marvelous may be one and the same" (Science Fiction in the >Real World p. 47). This definition ignores the superficial elements of >iconography or setting and focuses on the reader and his or her own >understanding of the universe and how it can and cannot function. Most >significantly, it leaves it to the reader to decide whether he or she is >reading SF or fantasy while providing a usable framework in which to make >that decision. Damn - I might have known it had been done before. and coherently, at that... Seriously, I do think that this is the kind of thing that we need, if anything, rather than rules about whether fifty rayguns equals one magical feudal baron in determining which side of "the fence" something is on. Dave Dave From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 07:42:51 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA62189; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 07:42:51 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:42:28 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 95 12:42:25 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Androids...Sheep -> Blade Runner (was Written vs. Films) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 12:33:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 26 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 >Deckard would have been much more gritty and convincing, ad the movie as a >whole would have been a lot better, if he had *not* been made into an >"everyman". One of the main distinctions of cyberpunk is that the >protagonist need not be a hero. But (a) if the protagonist is everyman then he probably /isn't/ a hero, as such; (b) I'd beware trying to peg BR as cyberpunk, and from that derive an idea of how it should be. However you define cyberpunk, Androids was never it. And Scott decided to make a certain kind of film for his own reasons. I think the earlier points were right - without the voiceover he is something of a self-alienated git. Even though he tries to deny it (that is, he tries to quit hi job) he really has nothing actually better to think about than wasting androids. With the voiceover, you instantly have him before you as a human being with ordinary concerns that you just don't get to see otherwise. That makes him everyman, if you like, but it doesn't make him a hero. Given the /content/ of the voiceover (never mind whether or not it was originally meant to be there), it seems that the intention of the film is that Deckard is meant to be seen this way. The film apparently strives to show him working things out because he is a thoughtful man, not because he is a dickhead who happened to have a random inspiration while terminating his 114th android. Maybe, to that extent, the voiceover was not such a bad idea. Dave From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 07:44:07 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA55356; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 07:44:07 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:43:52 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 95 12:43:50 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: Defining SF/Fantasy - Frankenstein Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 12:35:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 24 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 >I don't recall the source, but I believe that the best definition of Science >Fiction that I have read is "If you remove the science from the story and >there is no story left, then it is science fiction. For an example, consider >Mary Shelley's _Frankenstein_." The quote is not exact, but the gist is >there. I wish I could remember whose definition that was. If you remove that tiny bit about lightning, then all you are left with (presuming you then create the Creature with magic, say) is... ooh, well, just a little thing about what it means to be a self-aware living being on God's Earth, and what it might mean to have brought such a being into existence. Completely different from the result if the bit about lightning is left in. It's like saying that if you remove from Gulliver's Travels the bit about WHY Laputa flies through the air it (or that section of it, to be fair) loses all its story and therefore stops being SF - which is to miss the point of it, rather. Dave From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 08:04:53 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA59234; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 08:04:53 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 13:04:35 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 95 13:04:33 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: SF thesaurus-Difference b... Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 12:59:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 30 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 [log in to unmask]: >Usually, a story containing both fantasy and sci-fi >elements can be considered sci fi, since SF does not preclude magic, while >fantasy is firmly rooted into a modern or earlier tech level. The defining >factor of SF is technology level, and anything that is neither at a later >date nor a higher tech level than the time at which it is written is not SF I'm still uncomfortable with this. Shaw's series (I do hope it's no more than a trilogy, since from a promising start it seemed to collapse) beginning with The Ragged Astronauts is, for the most part, ALL ABOUT technology, and spaceflight, and interplanetary travel and colonisation, and stuff like that, all backed up with plausible and developing science and relying in no way on magic or any other deus ex machina. The technology is way, way, BEHIND ours in its level of theoretical sophistication, but, to appeal to a definition which I think is far too narrow to be useful in cases except cases like this, it IS fiction about the development of plausible science. It isn't anything else. Primarily technology, physics, engineering and a bit of biology. Take out the science, (to use /another/ definition that I actually don't really like!), and you have virtually no pages left at all. It would be a very unstisfactory definition, I think, that would "prove" this to be fantasy simply because they still use swords and don't even understand the laws of motion (certainly not until the second book, at least, and only fleetingly then). Same argument as that already advanced regarding steampunk, really. Dave From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 08:47:53 1995 Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA57567; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 08:47:53 -0400 Received: from uxa.liv.ac.uk by mail.liv.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 26 Jun 1995 13:47:04 +0100 From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: SF thesaurus-Difference between SF and Fantasy To: [log in to unmask] Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 13:46:59 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "[log in to unmask]" at Jun 23, 95 07:26:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1345 In the last mail [log in to unmask] said: > SF takes place in a world more > technologically advanced than our own. It is often, but not always, a > projection of our own future. Some of the main categories include Space > Opera(romantic SF such as Star Wars) and cyberpunk(typified by Gibson's > gritty novels). Fantasy, on the other hand, takes place in a world less > technologically advanced than our own. It has its roots in medieval culture, > and epics such as beowulf. the classic examples are Lord of the Rings, which > is epic high fantasy, and the Conan stories, on a swords-and-sorcery level. > How you would describe Mervyn Peake's TITUS GROAN series (last volume of which is at least mid-20th century cultural level or Mary Gentle's RATS AND GARGOYLES which is fantasy (sentient bipedal rats: Renaissance heremetic Magic) but culturally post-Industrial revolution and with references to current atomic- particle theory? Or stories involving prehistoric speculation such as William Golding's THE INHERITORS? -- Andy Sawyer, Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK 0151-794-2733/2696 [log in to unmask] http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html "Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 08:54:41 1995 Received: from gate.bmgmusic.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA62109; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 08:54:41 -0400 Received: from in1vines.bmgmusic.com by gate.bmgmusic.com with SMTP id AA08516 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for <[log in to unmask]>); Mon, 26 Jun 1995 07:54:38 -0500 Received: by IN1VINES.bmgmusic.com; Mon, 26 Jun 95 9:00:49 EDT Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 8:57:40 EDT Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Mostly Harmless Parenthetically, when this book was being originally published (and Adams had been amzingly late with the manuscript as usual), there was a rumor that he had written most/all/the end of it on his plane trip to the ABA (American Booksellers Association) convention in LA. I find it helps, while reading the last five pages or so, to imagine the captain saying something like, "We are now making our final approach into Los Angeles International Airport. Please return your trays and seat backs to their full upright and locked positions..." Andy Wheeler From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 08:59:04 1995 Received: from aec1.apgea.army.mil by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA30244; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 08:59:04 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Date: 26 Jun 95 08:56 EST Subject: Re[2]: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> >Always thought Bladerunner great. Hope the sequeal is half as good. There is going to be a sequel? Does anyone know about this? Michael "History has the relation to truth that theology has to religion- i.e., none to speak of" - Lazarus Long From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 09:11:40 1995 Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA49646; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 09:11:40 -0400 Received: from uxa.liv.ac.uk by mail.liv.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 26 Jun 1995 14:11:22 +0100 From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: RE SF AND FANTASY DIFFERENCES To: [log in to unmask] Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 14:11:17 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "[log in to unmask]" at Jun 25, 95 11:04:28 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1903 In the last mail [log in to unmask] said: > > > Why can't they be SF? Stick a vampire in Gibson's sprawl. > > What do you have then? This definition is too narrow and > > purist. > > Answer: You have SF. No sound definition of SF requires it to be free of > what we consider supernatural--after all, luke Skywalker used the Force, > while Deanna Troi is empathic(a restricted version of telepathy). The key > factor in this case is the Gibson's work takes place in the future. > I think this example blows your entire case. Star Wars' "Force" is much closer to fantasy than science fiction - basically it it just a shorthand for sub-zen mysticism or God. Science fiction depends upon an assumption that the events of the story or its "technology" (using that word as a broad term which would include what we would describe as magic) are explainable by the scientific method. Part of the fun in reading some vampire stories (eg Suzy Mckee Charnas' THE VAMPIRE TAPESTRY) is in the way the author speculates about how - given a vampire - the phenomenon of vampirism could be explainable in rational, scientific terms. The more plausible the explanation, the closer to SF, but equally, the less plausible the explanation of something (as in much of Star Trek) the closer to fantasy. A vampire in the Sprawl would have to have an explanation which fitted in with Gibson's concept of the Sprawl (a psychopathic youth-cult off-shoot, perhaps) otherwise you'd have neither fantasy nor science fiction but a mess. All of this discussion is of course provisional: see the quotation below. -- Andy Sawyer, Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK 0151-794-2733/2696 [log in to unmask] http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html "Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 09:32:54 1995 Received: from gate.bmgmusic.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA45236; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 09:32:54 -0400 Received: from in1vines.bmgmusic.com by gate.bmgmusic.com with SMTP id AA06035 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for <[log in to unmask]>); Mon, 26 Jun 1995 08:32:50 -0500 Received: by IN1VINES.bmgmusic.com; Mon, 26 Jun 95 9:39:03 EDT Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 9:30:50 EDT Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF vs. Fantasy, Alternate History Division Alternate Histories can be set in _any_ historical period, have _any_ level of technology and feature _any_ changes to history as we know it. (As long as it's convincing.) They are SF (by the definition of just about everyone I know of), and so a defintion of SF that excludes some or all of them is flawed. The flip side of that is that _every_ definition of SF is flawed. The proof that the field is still energetic and thriving is that writers are constantly pushing the boundaries of the genre. You (whoever started this thread -- sorry, I don't have your name handy) are confusing science with technology; the two are not the same. What makes SF specifically SF is not whiz-bang gadgets but an interest in the laws (of history and sociology just as much as physics and chemistry) that make the universe operate. Andy Wheeler From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 10:07:41 1995 Received: from uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA90073; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 10:07:41 -0400 Received: from uva.pcmail.virginia.edu by uvaarpa.virginia.edu id aa25715; 26 Jun 95 10:07 EDT Received: by uva.pcmail.Virginia.EDU (8.6.10/1.34) id KAA21338; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 10:07:40 -0400 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> From: Debbie Jo Halstead <[log in to unmask]> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 10:07:32 EDT X-Mailer: UVa PCMail 1.9.0 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Mostly Harmless On Jun 23, 6:45am, [log in to unmask] wrote: > Subject: Re: Mostly Harmless > Oh, Mostly Harmless wasn't good, but it wasn't very bad either (maybe only in > comparison). But I was wondering, Adams' endings/resolutions, that I can > think of, seldom made too much sense to me. Do others have the same problem? > (Off hand, I think of the Dirk Gently books, RATEOTU, and MH, but its been a > while since I've read them.) > > Sean D. > [log in to unmask] > -- End of excerpt from [log in to unmask] I suspect this was Adams point. A brief question: would anyone out there have any suggestions as to other similarly light (lite?) fare? (I'm trying to encourage a friend who has [unbelievably] read only one complete novel in her lifetime -- _Restaurant at the End of the Universe_. She's presently working on _Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency_.) I'm at a loss for similar stuff beyond Adams that might keep her hooked. Suggestions anyone? Debbie Jo Halstead From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 10:13:05 1995 Received: from gate.bmgmusic.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA64033; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 10:13:05 -0400 Received: from in1vines.bmgmusic.com by gate.bmgmusic.com with SMTP id AA05770 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for <[log in to unmask]>); Mon, 26 Jun 1995 09:13:00 -0500 Received: by IN1VINES.bmgmusic.com; Mon, 26 Jun 95 10:19:13 EDT Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 9:39:08 EDT Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Sharecropping (was: Wookiebooks) I don't want to bait Mike Resnick any more than others already have (especially since I agree with him in general outline), but I do feel compelled to point out that not all work-for-hire books are the same. Just as we all feel comfortable making literary judgments about "normal" (creator- controlled and owned) books, and have been sliding into such judgments on films (which have many of the same problems of work-for-hire books, exacerbated by the much larger numbers of people involved in ostensibly creative work and the possibilities of making huge amounts of cash), we should be able to make literary judgments about books featuring, say, Luke Skywalker or Doctor Who. And, if we're intellectually honest, the answer won't be a dismissive harrumpf (echoing all those Lit-Crit types who look down their noses at SF), but a real attempt to judge them reasonably. Admittedly, Sturgeon's Law operates in this field with a vengeance: I wouldn't be willing to admit even 10 % of the tie-in books published are actually worth reading. And there is an additional, extra-literary, aspect that is vitally related to the possible worth of such a book, even before it's written. And that's the willingness of the licensor to allow the writer to do his job without their constant interference. The only media-driven series I've read much of are the Stars Trek and Wars, so I'll use them for my examples. Trek is very tightly controlled by Paramount Pictures, and the books show it. Nothing is allowed to deviate in the slightest from the TV/Movie gospel, and, since more "real" (i.e., movies) works are planned, nothing really new can happen. So the very best Trek novel (Peter David's _Q-Squared_, is the one I'd pick), is a decent, if flat and faintly pointless, novel. Most of them are just silly dreck, despite the best efforts of some quite prominent authors (not simply the newcomers, as Resnick implied). I don't know why anyone would _want_ to write a Trek novel, except for the money: you're not allowed to have anything change and I don't find the universe terribly compelling in the first place. But they're all bestsellers (NY Times, not simply genre), so my view is the minority one. Star Wars, on the other hand, has been allowed much greater flexibility by Lucasfilm, primarily (I imagine) because George Lucas isn't going to ever make another movie with these characters. As long as things end up in the right place for his next movie trilogy (set 50 years later or so, I believe), it's fine with him. So the characters are allowed to change (not a lot, I'll grant you, but their actions have consequences and repercussions and affect things in later books). And so the net is set higher. I'd still not claim that any Star Wars book could be great, that it would be the kind of thing we'd normally discuss here and would have an effect on the history of the field, but it is possible to write a good novel set in this universe. Barbara Hambly (current President of SFFWA, as it happens) has done one, _Children of the Jedi_. And the general run-of-the-mill Star Wars novel is a fun space opera, wtihout much depth or weight, but without the feeling of meaninglessness that infests Trek. I can understand a writer _wanting_ to write a Star Wars book, and actually having an idea that might be fun to write, as I can't with Trek. I guess my point here was just to defend writers who do a sharecropped book as not necessarily contributing to the inevitable destruction of themselves and the field. Most of these books, admittedly, have no reason to be, are consumed by people who don't read much, if any, other SF/Fantasy, and take up rack space that we'd all rather see go to original works. But: 1) that's not true of all of them, 2) every book bought and read by a TV person is a blow for literacy, even if a very light one and 3) as I've written before, more original SF/Fantasy is being published than just about any time in the past, certainly more than any normal person can read. And most of that is crap, too. From the point of view of an typical New SF Writer, whose choice may be either A: write a mediocre original novel, see it fail to sell out a pessimistic first printing and know things will probably be worse for book # 2 or B: write a mediocre tie-in novel, make more money even with the tiny royalties than you would ever see from an original first novel, and then still have the opportunity to go back to A:, the choice isn't really weighted on the side of righteousness. Andy Wheeler From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 10:15:18 1995 Received: from uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA81324; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 10:15:18 -0400 Received: from uva.pcmail.virginia.edu by uvaarpa.virginia.edu id aa27252; 26 Jun 95 10:15 EDT Received: by uva.pcmail.Virginia.EDU (8.6.10/1.34) id KAA22182; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 10:15:18 -0400 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> From: Debbie Jo Halstead <[log in to unmask]> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 10:15:15 EDT X-Mailer: UVa PCMail 1.9.0 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner On Jun 23, 7:21am, [log in to unmask] wrote: > Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner > How does everyone feel about Bladerunner? It has some good points, and great > sets and acting, but the voice-over is corny(even from Harrison Ford), and > the plot is rather bare-bones in nature. > This is a bit off the subject, but do you think that it would be possible and > feasible to depict netrunning(computer theft a la William Gibson) on the big > screen? That is one of my favorite cyberpunk elements. > -- End of excerpt from [log in to unmask] I personally love Bladerunner, well, okay, anything done by Ridley Scott. I realize that this is a topic that has been beaten to a pulp -- just not here. Is there a consensus on whether the director's cut or the original theatre release was the better version? I prefer the director's cut -- darker ending, makes more sense. (The unicorn makes more sense.) Anybody? Debbie Jo Halstead From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 10:15:46 1995 Received: from ns-mx.uiowa.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA79559; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 10:15:46 -0400 Received: by ns-mx.uiowa.edu (8.6.10/19950309.1) on Mon, 26 Jun 1995 09:12:38 -0500 id JAA39854 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Received: by pink-floyd.uiowa.edu (cc:Mail translation to SMTP) on Mon Jun 26 09:14:11 1995 To: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask] Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 09:11 CST Subject: Trek trivia Riverside, Iowa is the "birthplace" of Captain James Tiberius Kirk. Yes, they have a yearly event celabrating his birthday that includes a parade. I'm sure the chamber of commerce for Riverside will fill you in on any other information you should need. Kenneth E. Baker -------------------------------------------------------------- There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. from: Restaraunt at the End of the Universe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- email [log in to unmask] snailmail 722 Jefferson Building, Iowa City, Ia 52242 voicemail (319)335-3946 imagemail (319)335-0381 ---------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 14:13:59 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Trecky trivia Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]> A quick question - Where was Cpt Kirk born? I know it's in Iowa, and I know a town in this wonderfull state 'o' mine has managed to lay official claim to the honor, but I can't find the name of this elusive town! I've heard that they have an anual 'star-treck & farm-implement' parade/fair thing that helps them to raise money for stuff like park equipment, and I'd love to drive out to see it. If someone can think of the name, I can contact the chamber (and/or drive out there) to find out the rest of the info about the town - for anyone interested. Thanks! Adora [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 10:24:32 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA93220; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 10:24:32 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 15:24:09 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 95 15:24:06 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: Guns of the South Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 15:23:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 15 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Colleen: >I found the description of _Guns of the South_ and the technology listed >very interesting. During the Civil War, dehydrated food was in existance >and was issued to the Northern troops. Granted, it was horrible; the >compressed vegetable blocks were call desiccated vegetables, but referred >to by the soldiers as desecrated vegetables. Not "defecated"? Just a silly obvious attempt at a joke. Sorry... Dave From cstu Mon Jun 26 12:01:55 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA06697; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:01:55 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:01:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: RE: Women in Sci-Fi (fwd by moderator) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 10:27:45 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: RE: Women in Sci-Fi I believe in Elizabeth Moon's "Sassinac" that the female protagonist didn't have a written sexual encounter. From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 10:41:14 1995 Received: from IS.Dal.Ca by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA51522; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 10:41:14 -0400 Received: by is.dal.ca (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA25441; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:41:04 -0300 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:41:04 -0300 (ADT) From: Patricia Monk <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Ancient fantasy literature To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I think this would be a very dubious approach. Surely the term _fantasy_ implies some kind of consciousness that the "literature" is not congruent with the lifeworld of the person producing it. And wouldn't most mythologies be oral transmissions rather than written "literature"? ***************************************************************** patricia monk (dr) [log in to unmask] "just visiting this planet" ***************************************************************** On Mon, 26 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > Couldn't all mythological liturature be considered fantasy. > From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 10:45:43 1995 Received: from ns-mx.uiowa.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA101012; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 10:45:43 -0400 Received: by ns-mx.uiowa.edu (8.6.10/19950309.1) on Mon, 26 Jun 1995 09:43:46 -0500 id JAA66812 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Received: by pink-floyd.uiowa.edu (cc:Mail translation to SMTP) on Mon Jun 26 09:41:13 1995 To: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask] Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 09:37 CST Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner [log in to unmask] wrote..... >Johnny M was horrific. Nothing about or in the film was of value. This message is horrific. Nothing about or in the message is of value. Johnny M had a lot more content that this message, and a lot more to think about. Please, if you are going to take the time to post your opinion, give us the reasoning behind said opinion. Kenneth E. Baker email [log in to unmask] |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) snailmail 722 Jefferson Building, Iowa City, Ia 52242 /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' voicemail (319)335-3946 |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ imagemail (319)335-0381 '---''(_/--' (_/-' From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 11:00:17 1995 Received: from relay.ubss.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA04614; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:00:17 -0400 Received: from na.ubs.com by relay.ubss.com with SMTP id AA10270 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for <[log in to unmask]>); Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:00:11 -0400 Received: from uniblab.uniblab (uniblab.ubs.com [161.239.30.101]) by na.ubs.com (8.6.4/8.6.4) with SMTP id LAA26893 for <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:00:12 -0400 Received: by uniblab.uniblab (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02589; Mon, 26 Jun 95 11:00:08 EDT Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 11:00:08 EDT From: [log in to unmask] (Marina Frants) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: written vs. films > > Marina: >> "If writing about borrowed characters in borrowed settings is > so stifling to creativity, why are you so excited about writing a Sherlock > Holmes story in another writer's style?" << > > Because 1) it took me 2 hours, not a huge chunk of my creative life; > 2) I've written over 50 novels and 150 stories in my own universes, so > I don't think my creativity is being stifled at this late date; 3) writing > one story of 5000 words in the style of Thorne Smith is -not- the same > as writing 100 uncreative novels in the imagined style of Gene Roddenbury. > > Trust this answers your question/objection/whatever. > > -- Mike Resnick > Well, it answers my question, but I can't say I agree with the answer. First of all, I doubt that writing a tie-in novel has taken a huge chunk of anyone's creative life. I don't know about the Wookiebooks, but Pocket's publishing schedule for Trek books requires that Trek authors must be extremely fast and prolific. Most of them have plenty of other projects going, too, so I don't think their creativity is being greatly stifled. Also, no one person has written 100 Trek novels, or anywhere near that number -- not even Peter David, my nominee for "the fastest in the business." Mind you, I'm not defending the literary quality of tie-ins. Most of them are crap, though an occasional good one appears here and there. I just don't agree that they're the Great Creeping Evil out to destroy science fiction. Marina Frants [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 11:03:28 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA72181; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:03:28 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 16:03:06 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 95 16:03:02 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Steampunk Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 16:00:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 11 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 >Steampunk is SF, unless it is at or below the present technology level, in >which case it is neither. Just how is "steampunk" (however we decide to define it, among the few definitons I've heard) /ever/ going to be at a "lower" level? The common categorical premise that gives rise to the name seems to make this a difficult thing to understand. Dave From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 11:03:35 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA57593; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:03:35 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 16:03:13 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 95 16:03:10 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Magic vs supernatural Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 16:00:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 14 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 >If it is in the future, it is SF, and that includes post-apocalyptic. > What if you can't tell? If you reads half of Piers Anthony's Battle Circle sequence, is it fantasy until you get proof that it's post-apocalytptic? And once you've discovered that it is, is it important to the story that it's something posited as being in our own future? What about post-apocalyptic or vastly technological things set in our past? Like Star Wars. That long, long ago, completely non-SF film that we all know so well as a great mythological fantasy. Dave From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 11:23:21 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA78341; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:23:21 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 16:22:27 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 95 16:22:24 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 16:16:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 21 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 >Everyone who says that SF must be dependent on Science should see the Star >Wars trilogy. It is SF, although there is nothing scientific about it. SF >got its name at a time when it was a vehicle for predicting the future. > Let's face the facts: not all visions of the future have solid scientific >bases. They are still SF. "Long, long ago, in a galaxy far, far away..." You do appear to be appealing to the explicit setting of the story in absolute relation to our own time and situation, even to the extent of legislating for future but primitive societies. Even accepting (as I would, quite happily) the lack of a rule that says one needs to prove that the science will work, if the premise can be undermined so easily by one of the most famous introductions in film history, the definition to hand seems to be a little lacking. This isn't to say that it's necessarily wrong in a really important way, but it doesn't seem quite to have hit the mark as stated. Dave From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 11:36:37 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA78299; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:36:37 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 16:36:21 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 95 16:36:18 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy (fwd) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 16:30:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 19 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 From: [log in to unmask]: >The thing is, some of the topics are neither. >For example, let's take Star Trek. Is it SF or F ? >IMHO, it is F. >And please, do not reply in a form "I hate TV, it's not real sf, it's all >bogus", I _KNOW_ how you feel :-) Doesn't work with my definition, since nothing happens to the characters and the whole thing seems concerned with backfilling its own pseudotechnological premises all the time - I reckon that's to do with the most shallow form of SF there is. But that's neither here nor there: maybe it's just shallow F. Difficult to tell with so little water to examine, it seems to me. And it all depends on who's watching and from which direction, anyway. Besides, it can be a fun way to spend an undemanding 45 minutes, occasionally. Dave From cstu Mon Jun 26 13:23:55 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA42390; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 13:23:55 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 13:23:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Why I brough up SF vs. F ... (fwd by moderator) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Why I brought up SF vs. F... Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 16:30:00 BST >>I was not saying that never the twain shall meet. However, i am offering >>this challenge: summarize a setting, and I will tell you whether it's >fantasy >>or SF, and justify my answer. Blast away. >Impossible. It is not possible to know a book or a movie or whatever to be F >or SF by setting _alone_. Example: Simak. Most of his books start of as SF >and go into F... "The Goblin Reservation". > Enchanted Pilgrimage. One of my favourites. (OK - tell me it wasn't Simak...) Dave From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 11:41:19 1995 Received: from relay.ubss.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA68141; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:41:19 -0400 Received: from na.ubs.com by relay.ubss.com with SMTP id AA11734 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for <[log in to unmask]>); Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:41:16 -0400 Received: from uniblab.uniblab (uniblab.ubs.com [161.239.30.101]) by na.ubs.com (8.6.4/8.6.4) with SMTP id LAA27325 for <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:41:18 -0400 Received: by uniblab.uniblab (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02673; Mon, 26 Jun 95 11:41:13 EDT Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 11:41:13 EDT From: [log in to unmask] (Marina Frants) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF vs. Fantasy, Alternate History Division > Alternate Histories can be set in _any_ historical period, have _any_ level > of technology and feature _any_ changes to history as we know it. (As long as > it's convincing.) They are SF (by the definition of just about everyone I > know of), and so a defintion of SF that excludes some or all of them is > flawed. But what if the alternate history includes magic? John M. Ford's _The Dragon Waiting_ is a very convincing, thoughtfully established alternate history set in an Early Renaissaice Europe where the Roman empire never fell and Christianity never really caught on except as a fringe cult. But it's still a fantasy, with magic playing a large part in the resolution of the plot. Marina Frants [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 11:51:58 1995 Received: from relay.ubss.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA100147; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:51:58 -0400 Received: from na.ubs.com by relay.ubss.com with SMTP id AA11635 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for <[log in to unmask]>); Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:51:38 -0400 Received: from uniblab.uniblab (uniblab.ubs.com [161.239.30.101]) by na.ubs.com (8.6.4/8.6.4) with SMTP id LAA27412 for <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:51:40 -0400 Received: by uniblab.uniblab (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02740; Mon, 26 Jun 95 11:51:34 EDT Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 11:51:34 EDT From: [log in to unmask] (Marina Frants) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Mostly Harmless > I suspect this was Adams point. A brief question: would anyone out there have > any suggestions as to other similarly light (lite?) fare? (I'm trying to > encourage a friend who has [unbelievably] read only one complete novel in her > lifetime -- _Restaurant at the End of the Universe_. She's presently working > on _Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency_.) I'm at a loss for similar > stuff beyond Adams that might keep her hooked. Suggestions anyone? I'd suggest _Good Omens_, by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett. (sp?) I haven't read Pratchett's other stuff, but I'm told it's in a similar vein to Adams, except it's fantasy rather than SF. Good Omens is certainly very funny. Marina Frants [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 12:04:01 1995 Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA102804; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:04:01 -0400 Received: from uxa.liv.ac.uk by mail.liv.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 26 Jun 1995 17:02:12 +0100 From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Tie-In Novels To: [log in to unmask] Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 17:02:05 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" at Jun 26, 95 10:42:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2227 In the last mail D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple said: > > > Brenda Daverin, [log in to unmask]: > > > >minimum. There have been, and likely only will be, three B5 novels and a > four > >or five-part comic miniseries. Rather civilized of him, I'd say. > > I'd support this one. As far as I'm concerned the guy is a real (not to > mention talented) writer trying quite successfully to do something new and > important for SF in the difficult and unforgiving world of serial TV. He > passes out stories for around a third of the episodes, to be written up by > selected guest writers, and writes the rest himself. He also keeps an eye > on anything else produced (and comes down VERY hard on anyone putting out > anything unauthorised) while keeping the volume low overall. (He's writing > about half the comics as well, by the way.) The story will take five years > to tell, assuming it gets picked up for its final two seasons (just has been > for the third). This is the nature of the project. Personally I'm avid to > see how this project survives, and pleased to see what it is trying to do to > and for the genre. I am without doubt a fan of the TV series Babylon 5 and agree with what's been written above: I think for once we have someone who is prepared to use some intelligence and storytelling skill to flesh out the series. It's also been brilliantly marketed to appeal to the "literate media fan", but that's part of its appeal. I've only read one of the novelisations, however, and it didn't seem to me to be any different in essence from any other novelisation I'd read. I like the TV series a lot, but have no real desire to follow it up in book form - there are many more imaginative books, it seems to me, than the one B5 spinoff I read. But then, I rarely read spinoffs anyway: I tend to agree with what Mike has said. Let's give some people a chance to do their OWN things. -- Andy Sawyer, Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK 0151-794-2733/2696 [log in to unmask] http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html "Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 12:12:16 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA27050; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:12:16 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA01973; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:11:53 -0500 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:12:21 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: written vs. films In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950626110456.12238C-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > >>The Star Wars books, for example: Have you read them all?<< You must be > kidding, right? I haven't read the Collected Little Lulu, either. That's fine, if not particularly relevant. Would you call Miller's The Dark Knight Returns unoriginal? > >>Does it take more nebulously defined 'talent' to write in someone > else's universe, or make up a boring mediocre one of your own?<< Well, > that's certainly not a lopsided, loaded question, is it? I don't > still beat my wife, either. > This wasn't aimed at you, as I said. I can't remember off-hand anything I have read of yours. I probably have, just don't remember. > >>Characters obviously grow and change. Luke becomes a master...<< Well, > that puts fini to Eugene Gant and Robert E. Lee Prewitt; Luke becomes > a master. Can't argue against deep, meaningful changes like that. > That's not all, obviously, Mike, just an example. Making/establishing a school? Is that change? Meaningful? You tell me. So you have wars, new planets, worlds destroyed, leaders changing, all that sort of stuff. Look at a lot of books considered deep and meaningful with a couple of guys sitting and talking. Not much change there, is there? If that is a definition of meaningful change then a lot of books are sadly lacking. . I'm not saying they are the best books ever written, or great, or anything. They aren't. They are average. However, they *are* better than a lot of original stuff, and worse than a lot of other original stuff. Whether by new writers acknowledged 'masters' or whatever. Dismissal out of hand is annoying, and is what happens to SF a lot, period. If that is your opinion that they are all a waste of space, that is fine. As to new writers getting published and not wanting to work in other people's universes, a lot of writers aren't going to get published because of their sex/race/economic status and who they know, too. From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 12:13:23 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA78827; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:13:23 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA02058; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:13:01 -0500 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:13:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950626111307.12238D-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII That is a helluva condemning definition, isn't it? Gonna make a lot of people mad. :-) AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place On Sun, 25 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > > I don't recall the source, but I believe that the best definition of Science > Fiction that I have read is "If you remove the science from the story and > there is no story left, then it is science fiction. For an example, consider > Mary Shelley's _Frankenstein_." The quote is not exact, but the gist is > there. > > From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 12:20:34 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA81420; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:20:34 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 17:19:59 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 95 17:19:56 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: Re[2]: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 17:17:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 16 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 >>Always thought Bladerunner great. Hope the sequeal is half as good. > >There is going to be a sequel? Does anyone know about this? There are rumours of Ridley Scott maybe thinking about one day considering doing something a bit like it. The rumours are, predictably, more concerned with who is meant to be paying for it and when it might get off the ground than they are with anything about the film that might actually result from it. I can't help hoping they leave it alone. As it is, it's a fine piece about the rights of people. I don't really want to see a related adventure. Dave From shal Mon Jun 26 12:22:30 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA47480; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:22:30 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:22:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "Stephanie A. Hall" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit listserv <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: SF and Fantasy on the same shelves Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, one answer to why SF and fantasy wind up on the same shelves in libraries and bookstores is obvious from the discussion -- if this group has some problems telling exactly where the lines are between the genres, then so do publishers, booksellers, and librarians. We can all think of examples that typify one genre or the other, but there are plenty that don't neatly fit in either catagory. Another reason this happens is that publishers and booksellers find it lucrative to put the stuff on the same shelves because, many times the same people read (and buy) both. Some things that appear on the sf bookshelves only if you understand their presence there in terms of marketing. For example, Pat Murphey's _Falling Woman_, in my opinion, is a modern novel -- a good one, and one that sf and fantasy fans are likely to enjoy -- but neither fantasy nor sf (I know some fantasy fans may disaggree -- but Murphey does not require the reader to believe that the archeologist protagonist is actually talking to the people she digs up, just that she believes she is. There are plenty examples of this in real archeology -- but I'm digressing). Anyway, Pat Murphey mainly writes SF and has an SF following, and so her books are marketed on the SF shelves -- even this one. Another point is that there is a lot of experimental fiction on the SF shelves (which I personally enjoy a great deal). Experimental stuff is hard to catagorize. If I can't figure out if a book is SF or fanasy or something in between, I read the blurb on the back, or the dust jacket, and the first page, and use that to figure it out. I think other readers do the same. SF is just not one genre -- it is a collection of overlapping genres that interact with each other, bouncing off each other in rather wonderful ways. This may make the great mass of stuff that falls under that category hard to sift through, but it can also be a very good thing. Stephanie ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Stephanie A. Hall, Archivist The Library of Congress American Folklife Center preserves and houses Library of Congress countless ideas and opinions. Washington, DC 20540-8100 Those expressed here [log in to unmask] are my own. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ MESSAGE REPLIED TO: Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:16:02 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Why I brought up SF vs. Fantasy Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]> Since this subject has provoked discussion, i'd like to explain why i brought it up. I work in a library where there is an SF section, but no fantasy section. All of the fantasy has "Science Fiction" stamped on the spines, and goes in the SF section. This really annoys me, because it seems to be implying, "What? Fantasy? Oh, that's just another kind of Sci Fi. Same difference." I was not saying that never the twain shall meet. However, i am offering this challenge: summarize a setting, and I will tell you whether it's fantasy or SF, and justify my answer. Blast away. ------------------------------ From cstu Mon Jun 26 19:24:30 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA31172; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 19:24:30 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 19:24:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: RE: SF and Fantasy on the same shelves (Fwd from moderator) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:22:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "Stephanie A. Hall" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: SF and Fantasy on the same shelves Well, one answer to why SF and fantasy wind up on the same shelves in libraries and bookstores is obvious from the discussion -- if this group has some problems telling exactly where the lines are between the genres, then so do publishers, booksellers, and librarians. We can all think of examples that typify one genre or the other, but there are plenty that don't neatly fit in either catagory. Another reason this happens is that publishers and booksellers find it lucrative to put the stuff on the same shelves because, many times the same people read (and buy) both. Some things that appear on the sf bookshelves only if you understand their presence there in terms of marketing. For example, Pat Murphey's _Falling Woman_, in my opinion, is a modern novel -- a good one, and one that sf and fantasy fans are likely to enjoy -- but neither fantasy nor sf (I know some fantasy fans may disaggree -- but Murphey does not require the reader to believe that the archeologist protagonist is actually talking to the people she digs up, just that she believes she is. There are plenty examples of this in real archeology -- but I'm digressing). Anyway, Pat Murphey mainly writes SF and has an SF following, and so her books are marketed on the SF shelves -- even this one. Another point is that there is a lot of experimental fiction on the SF shelves (which I personally enjoy a great deal). Experimental stuff is hard to catagorize. If I can't figure out if a book is SF or fanasy or something in between, I read the blurb on the back, or the dust jacket, and the first page, and use that to figure it out. I think other readers do the same. SF is just not one genre -- it is a collection of overlapping genres that interact with each other, bouncing off each other in rather wonderful ways. This may make the great mass of stuff that falls under that category hard to sift through, but it can also be a very good thing. Stephanie ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Stephanie A. Hall, Archivist The Library of Congress American Folklife Center preserves and houses Library of Congress countless ideas and opinions. Washington, DC 20540-8100 Those expressed here [log in to unmask] are my own. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ MESSAGE REPLIED TO: Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:16:02 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Why I brought up SF vs. Fantasy Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]> Since this subject has provoked discussion, i'd like to explain why i brought it up. I work in a library where there is an SF section, but no fantasy section. All of the fantasy has "Science Fiction" stamped on the spines, and goes in the SF section. This really annoys me, because it seems to be implying, "What? Fantasy? Oh, that's just another kind of Sci Fi. Same difference." I was not saying that never the twain shall meet. However, i am offering this challenge: summarize a setting, and I will tell you whether it's fantasy or SF, and justify my answer. Blast away. ------------------------------ From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 12:24:02 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA86808; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:24:02 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA02824; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:23:40 -0500 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:24:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950626112146.12238F-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII About Sean D and SF being very different from reality, or no fiction every taking place .... Well, fiction is made up, right? So obviously from the meaning of the word it is not 'real'. But it is not necessarily very different. i.e. look at the movie _Outbreak_ or a similar sort of book. Not so different, really, at all. Just a little tweak. Plus the usual Hollywood silliness (which if you *really* want to talk about stifling creativity... :-) ) AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 12:32:51 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA97321; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:32:51 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 17:32:32 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 95 17:32:29 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: RE SF AND FANTASY DIFFERENCES Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 17:30:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 56 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Andy Sawyer: >In the last mail [log in to unmask] said: >> >> > Why can't they be SF? Stick a vampire in Gibson's sprawl. >> > What do you have then? This definition is too narrow and >> > purist. >> >> Answer: You have SF. No sound definition of SF requires it to be free of >> what we consider supernatural--after all, luke Skywalker used the Force, >> while Deanna Troi is empathic(a restricted version of telepathy). The key >> factor in this case is the Gibson's work takes place in the future. >> >I think this example blows your entire case. Star Wars' "Force" is much closer >to fantasy than science fiction - basically it it just a shorthand for sub-zen >mysticism or God. Science fiction depends upon an assumption that the events >of the story or its "technology" (using that word as a broad term which would >include what we would describe as magic) are explainable by the scientific >method. Part of the fun in reading some vampire stories (eg Suzy Mckee >Charnas' >THE VAMPIRE TAPESTRY) is in the way the author speculates about how - given >a vampire - the phenomenon of vampirism could be explainable in rational, >scientific terms. The more plausible the explanation, the closer to SF, but >equally, the less plausible the explanation of something (as in much of Star >Trek) the closer to fantasy. A vampire in the Sprawl would have to have an >explanation >which fitted in with Gibson's concept of the Sprawl (a psychopathic youth-cult >off-shoot, perhaps) otherwise you'd have neither fantasy nor science fiction >but a mess. > >All of this discussion is of course provisional: see the quotation below. I agree with all of your points, Andy. I just couldn't see which bits of the above to cut that would make it obvious why I might mention Barbara Hambly's novel Immortal Blood. There /are/ vampires. Of the traditional sort. But someone's killing them. Actually it's another vampire. Actually no - it's someone who's been turned into a kind of creature that needs to drink blood - preferably that of the kind of creature we call "vampire". In fact, there's a mad scientists in the background. He did this. Fortunately there's an arch-sleuth in the foreground to clear the whole thing up. Lots of fun to read. Totally at odds with any technology- or timeframe-based definition of SF or fantasy or anything else. It can't matter as long as you know how it fits into your own reading (if you have any reason to care at all, even). Dave From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 12:33:23 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA79706; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:33:23 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA03478; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:33:01 -0500 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:33:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: written vs. films In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950626112444.12238G-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > True, Roddenbury didn't write any Trekbooks. But as any writer who had > to deal with his company will be happy to tell you, he exercised even > more control over what could and couldn't happen in a Trekbook than in > a Trek tv show. Some, like George Effinger, simple refused to do it and > never handed their manuscripts in. > Yep, there is definitely a controlling element. As someone pointed out, more control exercised in Trek than Star Wars. Then you could use the example of _Wild Cards_ to go to the other end of the spectrum of control. A series of novels based on one gaming groups game. However, these don't seem stifling to creativity. (which I agree somewhat with Mike, but not as completely as he puts it) Constraints are there in lots of things. As you use the example of GAE there, you don't have to do it. Can you eliminate them, though? Probably not. Is it possible for established people like yourselves to pressure publishers to publish new original stuff? Or refuse to write for publishers who publish this? One possible course of action. > Obviously you've never written a novel...but let me tell you: the fact > that a fast, competent writer can do a 5,000 word story in 2 hours does > NOT mean he can write a 100,000-word novel in 40 hours. A novel is a > far more complex piece of work, and if he's attacking it with any > degree of literary ambition whatsoever, it's going to take MONTHS, not > hours. > Very true, but still the story stifles a little bit of your creativity. Interesting question : a novel like a SW book - do you think that would be quicker to write, and hence less a drain on creativity than an original book? If you are working on a project for months, will that repress other ideas you could possibly have/get out, if you can write or type faster? Be interested to hear your opinions here Mike. > Also, I do not hold myself up as a typical writer. Except for perhaps > Barry Malzberg and possibly Kris Rusch, I'm the fastest in the business. > MANY short stories take weeks, not hours; some take months. My Hugo winners > took 2 and 3 nights respectively, and my current Nebula-winning novella > for one week; I've known writers to spend half a year producing the same > number of pages, and not winning anything in the process. > > -- Mike Resnick Yes, I realise this. 5000 words of coherence in 2 hours is pretty impressive. Roughly 40 wpm of originality. Pretty good for thinking and typing at the same time. Richard Scott From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 12:33:23 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA79706; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:33:23 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA03478; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:33:01 -0500 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:33:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: written vs. films In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950626112444.12238G-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > True, Roddenbury didn't write any Trekbooks. But as any writer who had > to deal with his company will be happy to tell you, he exercised even > more control over what could and couldn't happen in a Trekbook than in > a Trek tv show. Some, like George Effinger, simple refused to do it and > never handed their manuscripts in. > Yep, there is definitely a controlling element. As someone pointed out, more control exercised in Trek than Star Wars. Then you could use the example of _Wild Cards_ to go to the other end of the spectrum of control. A series of novels based on one gaming groups game. However, these don't seem stifling to creativity. (which I agree somewhat with Mike, but not as completely as he puts it) Constraints are there in lots of things. As you use the example of GAE there, you don't have to do it. Can you eliminate them, though? Probably not. Is it possible for established people like yourselves to pressure publishers to publish new original stuff? Or refuse to write for publishers who publish this? One possible course of action. > Obviously you've never written a novel...but let me tell you: the fact > that a fast, competent writer can do a 5,000 word story in 2 hours does > NOT mean he can write a 100,000-word novel in 40 hours. A novel is a > far more complex piece of work, and if he's attacking it with any > degree of literary ambition whatsoever, it's going to take MONTHS, not > hours. > Very true, but still the story stifles a little bit of your creativity. Interesting question : a novel like a SW book - do you think that would be quicker to write, and hence less a drain on creativity than an original book? If you are working on a project for months, will that repress other ideas you could possibly have/get out, if you can write or type faster? Be interested to hear your opinions here Mike. > Also, I do not hold myself up as a typical writer. Except for perhaps > Barry Malzberg and possibly Kris Rusch, I'm the fastest in the business. > MANY short stories take weeks, not hours; some take months. My Hugo winners > took 2 and 3 nights respectively, and my current Nebula-winning novella > for one week; I've known writers to spend half a year producing the same > number of pages, and not winning anything in the process. > > -- Mike Resnick Yes, I realise this. 5000 words of coherence in 2 hours is pretty impressive. Roughly 40 wpm of originality. Pretty good for thinking and typing at the same time. Richard Scott From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 12:39:21 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA43868; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:39:21 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA03861; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:38:59 -0500 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:39:26 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: 2001 and Blade Runner In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950626113646.12238H-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII re: film length 2001 etc. To dismiss a film as too long is also catering to attention spans that are very short and Hollywood/movie theatre desires to hvae sub 2 hour stuff so they can make more money, too. If it is too long and _boring_ and padded that is different, but length is not a bad thing in and of itself. Most people read slower than I do, as most people write slower than Mike Resnick does. So for them, reading a several hundred page book will take quite a while. The length of the undertaking is not relevant to the quality of the work, unless the length detracts as above. AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 12:47:24 1995 Received: from ux1.isu.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA100345; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:47:24 -0400 Received: from LCS.ISU.EDU (fs.isu.edu) by ux1.isu.edu with SMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA270215156; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 10:45:56 -0600 Received: from LCS/MAILQUEUE by LCS.ISU.EDU (Mercury 1.13); Mon, 26 Jun 95 10:53:56 -0600 Received: from MAILQUEUE by LCS (Mercury 1.13); Mon, 26 Jun 95 10:53:27 -0600 From: "Brian Attebery" <[log in to unmask]> Organization: Idaho State University To: [log in to unmask] Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 10:53:25 MST Subject: RE: SF v. Fantasy Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Are genres really categories, or are they ways of reading and writing? If the latter, it doesn't make sense to argue about whether a particular story is SF or fantasy. Instead, a book like Gene Wolfe's _Book of the New Sun_ can be approached by saying, "Well, it functions like fantasy in these ways and like SF in those other ways." Brian Attebery ([log in to unmask]) From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 13:01:15 1995 Received: from odo.acdnj.itt.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA40585; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 13:01:15 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:58:52 -0400 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> From: [log in to unmask] (set chaos/total) To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Poetry X-Vms-To: SMTP%"[log in to unmask]" X-Vms-Cc: NABADM I have occasionally come across some selections of SF poetry, e.g., David Gerrold's "The Badlands", some stuff by Joe Haldeman, but only very occasionally. Are there any anthologies of or sources for SF poetry out there? Nancy From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 13:25:43 1995 Received: from bos1g.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA36382; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 13:25:43 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 13:25:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 13:25:42 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Leaving aside the fact that all these computer-operated weapons keep missing the good guys, and that the Force, such as it is, is a fantasy device, consider the end of the third movie: poor Luke is going to be a table for 4 wherever he goes for the rest of his life. You think that's sf and not fantasy? -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 13:35:53 1995 Received: from bos1h.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA76694; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 13:35:53 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 13:35:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 13:35:51 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Sharecropping (was: Wookiebooks) To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Andy Wheeler: I go for the even more basic question than whether media books are worth reading, and ask whether they're worth writing. As someone who turned down offers last year to do both a Trekbook and a Wookie trilogy, you can guess my answer. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 13:42:43 1995 Received: from bos1h.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA57203; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 13:42:43 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 13:42:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 13:42:42 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: written vs. films To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >>I just don't agree that they [media books] are the Great Creeping Evil out to destroy science fiction.<< The Great Creeping Evil out to destroy science fiction is economics. Media books are just one of its weapons. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 13:52:24 1995 Received: from Alice-Thurman.tenet.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA43860; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 13:52:24 -0400 Received: (from teriw@localhost) by Alice-Thurman.tenet.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA20819; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:52:23 -0500 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:52:22 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa J Warren <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Sharecropping (was: Wookiebooks) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'd also like to point out that three TREK-book writers -- Diane Duane, Alan Dean Foster and Peter David -- made their initial niche in writing TREK stuff, wrote some unique stories in those books (Peter David's IZMADI and Q-SQUARED and Foster's adaptations/expansions of the cartoon series of the early 70's), and went on to write more books OUTSIDE the sub-genre. Has these three writers' quality of work suffered? I think not! Gary L. Warren From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 14:18:35 1995 Received: from gate.bmgmusic.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA33885; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 14:18:35 -0400 Received: from in1vines.bmgmusic.com by gate.bmgmusic.com with SMTP id AA05869 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for <[log in to unmask]>); Mon, 26 Jun 1995 13:18:32 -0500 Received: by IN1VINES.bmgmusic.com; Mon, 26 Jun 95 14:24:43 EDT Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 14:19:06 EDT Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] Subject: re: Lambor's definition of SF OK, time for a little syllogysm: Major Premise: SF writers, editors, critics and noted fans have always (with few eceptions) categorized Alternate Histories as SF. Minor Premise: Your simplified categorization (i.e., SF is fiction set chronologically letter than the date it was written) denies that Alternate Histories are SF. Your Conclusion: Alternate Histories aren't SF Everyone Else's Conclusion: Your categorization is too simple, since it fails a simple "real-world" test. Andy Wheeler P.S. What about time travel stories? From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 14:23:01 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA41555; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 14:23:01 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA203650980; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 14:23:00 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 14:23:00 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Pulp books series & catagorization But when we talk Trek and Wookiecrap, we're talking about books for the adult (or teen, which takes up the same rack space) market...and it's -here- where they shut the new writers out (unless said writers are willing to stifle their creativity and tell Trek and Wookie stories), and virtually murder the midlist. ************************ I agree with you on this point - from the perspective of a writer and a confirmed bookworm. However, as I stated in an earlier post, there are people who simply don't take the time out of their day to read the kind of things that a confirmed bookworm may tend to devour (never mind all of the awards any given novel may have recieved), yet will read this trek and wookie stuff. So, I guess the real question is, are the publishers justified in putting out all of this pulp? Is there a good segment of the population that is either uninterested in, or incapable of, reading something that is more mentally stimulating and not based on a movie (therby providing the 'visual' basis and background for your characters and requiring your mind to work even *less*). And, if these strings of mindless novels didn't exist *would* this portion of the reading public pick up something else to replace it - would we care if they didn't? I believe someone mentioned dumbing down movies, perhaps the same has happened (or is happening) to books. 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 >Bookstores also create categories such as "Science Fiction" >or "Fantasy" and sometimes lump the two together in a big F & >SF section, and you can also find in them the sort of >mismatches I mentioned above. ******************************* This brings up a little pet peeve of mine own. I've gone looking for a particular author (ie: Tony Hillerman, N. Scott Momaday, Ellison) in various mall bookstores, and when I browsed the subject headings (mystery, fiction) I could find none of the above. When I asked the clerks for help they directed me to the sociology section - why? because the authors &/or books have Native American or African American authors and/or characters. Perhaps all of the above mentioned problems could be avoided if the publishers would 'brand' the books themselves - preferably with the specified approval of the author? Adora [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 20:39:17 1995 Received: from mail.swip.net by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA83608; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 20:39:17 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Received: by mail.swip.net with UUCP (8.6.8/3.01) id CAA17904; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 02:44:01 +0200 Received: from lkp by lkp.ifsab.se (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09325; Tue, 27 Jun 95 02:13:08 +0200 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 02:13:08 +0200 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Apparently-To: <[log in to unmask]> ---- Transcript of session follows ---- %MAIL-E-SENDERR, error sending to user HAPE-MAIL-W-WRITEERR, error writing DB2:[HAPE]MAIL.MAI;1-RMS-F-DUP, duplicate key detected (DUP not set) ---- Recipients of this delivery ---- [log in to unmask] (bounced) ---- Unsent message follows ---- Received: by lkp (UCX V2.0) Tue, 27 Jun 1995 02:09:57 +0200 Received: from loc.gov by lkp.ifsab.se (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09305; Tue, 27 Jun 95 02:12:29 +0200 Errors-To: [log in to unmask] Received: from rs8.loc.gov by mail.swip.net (8.6.8/3.01) id BAA24658; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 01:45:46 +0200 Received: from localhost by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA88861; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 19:35:20 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 19:35:20 -0400 Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950626112146.12238F-100000@bigcat> Errors-To: [log in to unmask] Reply-To: [log in to unmask] Originator: [log in to unmask] Sender: [log in to unmask] Precedence: bulk From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Science Fiction and Fantasy Listserv About Sean D and SF being very different from reality, or no fiction every taking place .... Well, fiction is made up, right? So obviously from the meaning of the word it is not 'real'. But it is not necessarily very different. i.e. look at the movie _Outbreak_ or a similar sort of book. Not so different, really, at all. Just a little tweak. Plus the usual Hollywood silliness (which if you *really* want to talk about stifling creativity... :-) ) AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 14:23:18 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA55442; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 14:23:18 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA204510998; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 14:23:18 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 14:23:18 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Women in SF Has anyone ever read a scinece fiction story where the protagnist is a female and doesn't have a sexual encounter? This isn't a question of prejudice, but curiosity. I've just written such a story, and thought of this while editing it for submission. ******************** If you don't mind branching off into SF drama, Caryl Churchill's _Moving Clocks Go Slow_ has three very strong women and (if I recall correctly) no sexual encounters. 00000000000000000000000000000000000000 >Asimov's Susan Calvin ********************* Do you really think Susan Calvin is a good example? She was such a stereotypically frigid female scientist. Granted, she only had one 'love interest' in _I, Robot_ but even that was the 'woman meets a handsome man and falls head over silly heels for him, therby threatening her career, and then lashes out in viscious anger when she realizes she's not pretty enough or silly enough for him' plot. It would seem that Susan Calvin is the opposit to the 'breeder' streotype - the smart, and therby sexually uninteresting, woman. Of course, this is all IMHO. Adora [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 14:28:43 1995 Received: from gate.bmgmusic.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA33650; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 14:28:43 -0400 Received: from in1vines.bmgmusic.com by gate.bmgmusic.com with SMTP id AA08760 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for <[log in to unmask]>); Mon, 26 Jun 1995 13:27:06 -0500 Received: by IN1VINES.bmgmusic.com; Mon, 26 Jun 95 14:33:23 EDT Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 14:31:25 EDT Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] Subject: re: definition of fiction DANES4 defined fiction as "something that couldn't/didn't exist." What about the _roman a clef_? What about all those dreary auobiographical novels by Big Famous Literary Authors? The only reason anyone reads them is because they've been told that the stories are true. Andy Wheeler From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 15:35:22 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA79650; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 15:35:22 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA191045321; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 15:35:21 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 15:35:21 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: women protagonists I believe Nancy Kress has written such stories. Sean D. From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 15:35:29 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA90680; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 15:35:29 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA278055137; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 15:32:17 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 15:32:17 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: 2001 >I can't think of any other movie, SF or not, ever, that captiaved my (and many, many others') attention the way 2001 did. Further, the film accomplished that task without the aid of a significant evil presence, gaudy love interest or amazingly involved story line. This film is the very embodiment of pure, pure science fiction. This film is about life, questions, humanity and the force that creates humanity, thought. >To dismiss it as cerebral, too long or too abstract (if you want to see real abstraction, read the first chapter of the Silmarillion by J.R.R. Tolkein) indicates a pre-defined expectation for what Science Fiction ought to be. Don't get me wrong, I love the big SF hits (movies and otherwise,) but this film, along with Star Wars and Blade Runner define a triumverate of SF movie masterpieces without which the SF realm would not be complete. Yes, 2001 was an accomplishment. My intention was not to dismiss it. It is not, in my opinion, a pre-defined expectation for what science fiction ought to be (other postings show I haven't quite figured out HOW to define SF) as it is a matter of taste. I enjoy characters as real people. I did not enjoy the abstraction of the main character (his name is Bowman, right?) to represent everybody. It was too long. It did not involve me EMOTIONALLY. I don't mean I expected a tearjerker. But I do want to care about what is happening on the screen. THAT was my real problem with 2001. I enjoyed the movie, and it was good. But it did, to me, have problems. Sean D. From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 15:35:36 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA74314; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 15:35:36 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA093955335; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 15:35:35 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 15:35:35 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: 2001 and Everyman >Regarding A.C. Clarke's _2001_, Sean D. complained about the characters being too symbolic to care about on a human level (hope I got that right.) Moonwatcher and Bowman symbolize humanity (past and present, quite obviously.) Color me corney but if one cannot work up some support for this human's race, as a whole, wouldn't that call into suspicion any sort of "caring" such a personage may profess for a supposedly sympathetic member of said race? Sigh. Yes, I'm really a super-mutated, highly intelligent lizard. I haven't cared for a character in the media since those cute aliens on "V." I have seldom enjoyed the "Everyman" type guy (hey, I can't think of a single Everywoman. Can anyone come up with a woman who's role represents not just women, but the whole human race?). Anyway, these symbols have never affected me (The most recent such character I read like that was Aeneas from the Aeneid. I mention it because in the class, we discussed something along these lines (and I detested Aeneas for the majority of the thing)). I find them cold and heartless in their effort to represent me and everybody else on this planet. Soemtimes this is all right for the story, but most of the time they end up as homogenized nothings, no personality. I often could care less about such a character. That's what I mean. I find characters a very important part of the story. Sean D. From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 15:59:29 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA86809; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 15:59:29 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA029556769; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 15:59:29 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 15:59:29 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Artificial men oh, i'm sorry. i though this string was about my boyfriend. allgrill From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 16:03:02 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA40695; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 16:03:02 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA038896982; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 16:03:02 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 16:03:02 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Abominations done in publ... I don't know... My local library also, as you would say, "lumped F and SF" together, but I kind of like it. Instead of thinking which section they might've put _the City_ in, I just go and look up S for Simak. Easier... And BTW, what is Dewrey Decimal System ??? A library programming language ? From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 16:56:16 1995 Received: from mail.jal.cc.il.us by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA32676; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 16:56:16 -0400 Received: from PORT37.AIXDIALIN.SIU.EDU (PORT37.AIXDIALIN.SIU.EDU [131.230.253.37]) by mail.jal.cc.il.us (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA03448 for <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 15:38:51 -0500 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 15:38:51 -0500 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: [log in to unmask] X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: [log in to unmask] From: [log in to unmask] (Ed McKnight) Subject: Re: Alternate Histories and SF [log in to unmask] wrote: >Question: Is the "Alternate History" story taking place in an alternate >history at a higher technology level than our own? if so, it is SF. If not, >assuming that it contains no magic, it is neither SF nor fantasy--it's just a >creatively twisted setting. Given your definition of SF as taking place "either at a later date or a higher tech level than the time at which it is written" most alternative histories would not be not SF, including Gibson and Sterling's THE DIFFERENCE ENGINE (set in a 19th century more advanced than our 19th century but less advanced than the present). You may be right about alternative history; it is really a separate genre which began independently of SF in the 19th century and later merged with it. Ed McKnight - [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 16:56:18 1995 Received: from mail.jal.cc.il.us by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA75432; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 16:56:18 -0400 Received: from PORT37.AIXDIALIN.SIU.EDU (PORT37.AIXDIALIN.SIU.EDU [131.230.253.37]) by mail.jal.cc.il.us (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA03473 for <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 15:48:38 -0500 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 15:48:38 -0500 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: [log in to unmask] X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: [log in to unmask] From: [log in to unmask] (Ed McKnight) Subject: Re: SF and Fantasy [log in to unmask] also wrote: > Usually, a story containing both fantasy and sci-fi elements can be considered sci fi, >since SF does not preclude magic, while fantasy is firmly rooted into a modern or >earlier tech level. The defining factor of SF is technology level, and anything that is >neither at a later date nor a higher tech level than the time at which it is written is not >SF. I am intrigued by the notion that SF and fantasy can be distinguished by the level of technology they display or the time in which they are set. I wholeheartedly agree with you that to classify fantasy as science fiction is absurd, even for shelving purposes, but I don't agree that "the defining factor of SF is technology level." I've previously mentioned Turtledove's AGENT OF BYZANTIUM as an example of SF set in a technologically backward past (though not our past, and more advanced than our past actually was). In fact Turtledove's historically uprooted 13th century strikes me as the archetypal fantasy setting, but since there are no fantastic occurrences in any of the stories and many examples of scientific discovery and technological innovation I would have to categorize it either as SF or as part of a separate genre, alternative history (see previous posting). I am most troubled by the notion that "SF does not preclude magic, while fantasy is firmly rooted into a modern or earlier tech level." SF does not preclude anything that might someday (or somewhere) actually exist, including that which the venerable Arthur C. Clarke describes as being "indistinguishable from magic." But if the magic that is introduced into a story contradicts scientific law, the story becomes fantasy, in spite of any advanced technology the story may also exhibit. I accept Deanna Troi's empathic abilities about as readily as I accept the Enterprise's warp drive capabilities; they may not be probable (a virtue that I demand equally of SF, fantasy or Renaissance drama, the absence of which does not alter a work's genre, but merely makes it bad SF, fantasy or Renaissance drama), but I can believe that it is possible. On the other hand, I disagree with those that view SF as a subcategory of fantasy, a subtype that happens to make use of science and technology, and which, when it fails to do so correctly, becomes simply fantasy. Instead, I view fantasy (in the strict sense) as the narrower category, making (often spectacular) use of a limited repertoire of motifs drawn from mythology, legend, and history in contrast to SF, which is free to introduce any new element that is not in open violation of scientific law as currently understood. Ed McKnight - [log in to unmask] > From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 17:02:59 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA70178; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 17:02:59 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA167179493; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 16:44:53 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 16:44:53 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: "Non-sexist language" - pointless wild goose chase. I have to respond to Dave's opinion on the apparent silliness of hypersensitivity to sexist language. I am also tired of the pervasiveness of political correctness. It's getting so that no one listens to what you say and only to how you say it. However, I do agree that all language has its roots in patriarchy because language was created under patriarchal regimes. It is, therefore, inherently skewed toward the masculine. Such words as "history" and "seminal" would, of course, have masculine undertones because those who created the language used themselves -- and naturallly, their own masculinity -- as a point of reference. This doesn't, however, mean that there was anything inherently evil in the creator's intention. That's just the way it was. I doubt if anyone would say that the urban black dialect has anything inherently evil in it, either. It's the way that they use the language -- they've adapted white language to their own needs. In this same way, American English differs from British English. It's a language that comes from a particular point of reference. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that, although by necessity any language is created from a certain point of view, there is nothing mean or oppressive in that. That's just the way it is. So then, I would suppose that women's effort to create their own language is the first step in this direction. The other thing that I would advise is for all people to stop being hypersensitive to people's word choice and pay more attention to the message. AllGrill From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 17:12:37 1995 Received: from rgfn.epcc.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA41572; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 17:12:37 -0400 Received: by rgfn.epcc.Edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA22492; Mon, 26 Jun 95 15:12:32 MDT Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 15:12:32 MDT Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> From: [log in to unmask] (R. I. Martin) To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Literary Science Fiction Reply-To: [log in to unmask] Hi folks, my name is Roger Martin. I got on the list server last Friday, though I'd been reading the logs before that. I notice a lot of discussion about the difference between fantasy and SF, but *my* burning question is this: What's the difference between "literary" SF and the rest of it? Given that the original intent of this group (at least as I understand it) was to serve as a forum for literary SF, it seems to me this is a germane question. Any takers? ### From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 18:10:45 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA48401; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 18:10:45 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA219094644; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 18:10:45 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 18:10:45 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Arthur's Temp. Immortality (was More on Douglas Adams >There's one thing I don't get about the Hitchhiker trilogy. Everyone >assumes >it to be set in stone that Arthur can't die until he goes to some >planet(I >can't remember the name) and gets shot at, and ducks, and the >bullet kills >Agrajag in one of his many forms. Then he dies with the rest of the >world. >Did any of you DL fans out there catch that? Well, it's a little complicated, but let me _try_ to explain it: First, some review: In _The Restaurant at the End of the Universe_ , Chapter 16, Arthur was brought to the Cathedral of Hate, in which Agrajag dwelt. The main hall contained a statue illustrating the many ways Arthur had killed him. Arthur gawked, and Agrajag ranted. Of all the ways Agrajag said Arthur had killed him, one had not happened yet: Arthur ducking a bullet at Stavromula Beta. Now, the explanation. One thing must be established first. The Cathedral of Hate exists outside the normal flow of time. Past, present, and future are irrelevant. Therefore, Agrajag can talk about things that have already happened to him, but have not happened to Arthur yet. So, Agrajag knows that he gets killed by a bullet meant for Arthur at Stavormula Beta, but it hasn't happened yet from Artthur's point of view (ie. during his lifetime up to his personal present.). However, it must happen. Therefore, Arthur can not die before it does, becuase if he dies first, it will never happen. I hope this helps clear it up. If anyone else would like to take a stab at it, go ahead. If anyone wants to ask a more specific question to yield a clearer answer, feel free. Meanwhile, Share and Enjoy! Randy From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 18:43:49 1995 Received: from UWSTOUT.EDU by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA34737; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 18:43:49 -0400 Received: from UWSTOUT.EDU by UWSTOUT.EDU (PMDF V4.3-7 #4883) id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 17:44:13 CST Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 17:44:13 -0600 (CST) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Magic vs supernatural To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Colleen the books you're thinking of, set in the future, where some children awaken Merlin, are by Peter Dickinson. The first book in the series is called The Weathermonger. I forget the rest of the titles, but they're good stuff. Trying to decide whether a book is science fiction or fantasy is something of a mugs game. Fantasy, pretty much by definition, has magic of some sort. If a book has some of the trappings of science fiction, but still has what are clearl magical elements, it's fantasy that uses some of the elements of sf, but still fantasy. Conversely, even if a book feels like fantasy, but all of the amazing elements are explanable scientifically, then it's science fiction, a good example being McCaffrey's Dragon series. Although most sf is set in the present, there's no reason why it has to be. Much good sf is set in the past, see the steam punks and a lot of alternate universe stories, for example Harry Harrison's A Transatlantic Tunnel, Hurrah. Mike Levy From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 18:47:24 1995 Received: from UWSTOUT.EDU by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA89084; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 18:47:24 -0400 Received: from UWSTOUT.EDU by UWSTOUT.EDU (PMDF V4.3-7 #4883) id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 17:47:49 CST Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 17:47:49 -0600 (CST) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT What makes a story science fiction is not a matter of whether or not the scienceis accurate. It's a matter of whether or not, within the context of the story, we're supposed to assume that the marvel described works through scientific principles. Vernes moon novel is still science fiction, despite the fact that his shot from a gun spaceship is nonsense. Mike Levy From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 18:52:03 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA78640; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 18:52:03 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA225917123; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 18:52:03 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 18:52:03 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Women in Sci-Fi To all those who responded (and will respond, knowing the cyber-mail system) to my quesiton about women who don't have sex in a sci-fi story, thanks. This is one time I'm glad to not be too original. On another subject, limiting SF to dealing with technology or time frames advanced of the time of their writing is ludicrous! If an author today writes a tale of a character living in the 1800's creating a computer to decipher hieroglifics <sp?>, it would certainly be science fiction. From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 18:52:03 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA78640; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 18:52:03 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA225917123; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 18:52:03 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 18:52:03 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Women in Sci-Fi To all those who responded (and will respond, knowing the cyber-mail system) to my quesiton about women who don't have sex in a sci-fi story, thanks. This is one time I'm glad to not be too original. On another subject, limiting SF to dealing with technology or time frames advanced of the time of their writing is ludicrous! If an author today writes a tale of a character living in the 1800's creating a computer to decipher hieroglifics <sp?>, it would certainly be science fiction. From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 19:56:38 1995 Received: from ns.byu.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA34702; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 19:56:38 -0400 Received: from [128.187.35.50] ("port 62865"@128.187.35.50) by yvax.byu.edu (PMDF V5.0-3 #11413) id <[log in to unmask]> for [log in to unmask]; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 16:10:04 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 16:10:04 -0600 (MDT) Date-Warning: Date header was inserted by yvax.byu.edu From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Though it is of no use in distinguishing science fiction from fantasy, a modified quote from Theodore Sturgeon can help to distinguish each of them from the mainstream: "A science fiction story is a story with a human problem and a human solution--neither of which would have happened without some scientific or technological element." A simple substitution of "fantasy" and "fantastic" at the key points will cover most everything else that is frequently seen as not science fiction but more closely connected to it than to anything else in the literary world. [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 20:00:53 1995 Received: from mail.jal.cc.il.us by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA04202; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 20:00:53 -0400 Received: from PORT12.AIXDIALIN.SIU.EDU (PORT12.AIXDIALIN.SIU.EDU [131.230.253.12]) by mail.jal.cc.il.us (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA03789 for <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 19:00:56 -0500 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 19:00:56 -0500 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: [log in to unmask] (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: [log in to unmask] From: [log in to unmask] (Ed McKnight) Subject: Re: Fatherland Gary L. Warren wrote: >One other example of an Alternate History was FATHERLAND (in which Hitler >is still alive in the 1960's, Joe Kennedy, Sr. is president of the US and >the US and Germany are at a stalemate from WWII). I saw the HBO movie >adaptation and thought, frankly, it stunk [partly due to a mischaracterization of Joseph Kennedy, whom historians have shown to have been anti-Semitic himself] > >I can only hope the book was better researched than the HBO presentation. Indeed it was. Robert Harris was a correspondent for the TIMES of London and the author of a book about the selling of the forged Hitler diaries. FATHERLAND contains actual quotes from Joseph Kennedy Sr. regarding the similarity of attitudes toward the Jews in Germany and the US. The point of making Kennedy president (and Lindbergh the US ambassador to Berlin) was to underscore the potential for detente between the US and Nazi Germany, a point that was pretty much lost in the HBO movie. Ed McKnight - [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 20:04:31 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA30955; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 20:04:31 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA041231471; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 20:04:31 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 20:04:31 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy As an avid reader of both "genres", if that is what one wishes to call them, I tend to believe that some of the best novels arise from the combination of the two techniques. Reference Anne McCaffrey's Pern series for a very successful combination. Lisa Adams From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 20:06:02 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA30752; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 20:06:02 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA135041374; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 20:02:54 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 20:02:54 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: 2001 and Blade Runner I have to agree with Mr. Scott; to dismiss a film as simply "too long" is extreme. However, there is a classic example; namely, that of Frank Herbert's Dune - both too long in the book form, and entirely out of place in a film setting. Lisa Adams From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 20:13:40 1995 Received: from bos1h.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA53818; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 20:13:40 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 20:13:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 20:13:35 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: written vs. films To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The rest isn't worth arguing about any further, but your statement that "a lot of writers aren't going to get published because of their sex/race/economic status and who they know, too" is, in a word, bullshit. Every writer you have read, of any gender, race, or economic status, had to buck the same odds when breaking into the field. The good ones managed; the bad ones didn't. You show me 100 wannabee writers who whine that their sex, race or economic status kept them from selling, and I will show you a -minimum- of 99 who couldn't write their way out of a wet tissue bag. On behalf of every writer who has successfully bucked those odds, I strongly suggest you reconsider that statement and then withdraw it. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 20:23:32 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA71537; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 20:23:32 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA010172612; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 20:23:32 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 20:23:32 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Women in Sci-Fi Come to think of it, I don't think I have ever read a science fiction story or novel that the female protagonist doesn't have a sexual encounter. I would probably be interested in such a story. Lisa From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 20:25:20 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA29676; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 20:25:20 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA210622720; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 20:25:20 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 20:25:20 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy Applause to Mr. Resnick: my only comment is LOL!! Lisa From cstu Tue Jun 27 08:44:40 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA90816; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 08:44:40 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 08:44:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Help, I'm drowning! Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII All of you are being great about sending interesting postings, BUT, we are still working under the old buggy software and I cannot send a message out until I am sure the previous message has cleared without crashing the server. Right now I have 53 messages to go out, which means I may clear them all today, but not likely. Remember I must look at and send an approval message for each one you send. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, try and group your replies in one message as much as possible. We will be getting new software sometime soon, but there is no word yet on it's arrival date. As soon as I know, I will let you know. Hopefully it will allow for more flexibility in my approving messages. Until then, I appreciate your help. Thanks! Colleen Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 21:06:30 1995 Received: from portal.dx.net by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA46165; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 21:06:30 -0400 Received: from heartbeat.org (heartbeat.org [199.190.113.2]) by portal.dx.net (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id MAA21135 for < [log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:09:32 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Received: from MHS by heartbeat.org with MHS id $T100216 ; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:57:30 EST Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:56:06 +0500 Subject: Women in Sci-Fi To: [log in to unmask] X-Wg-Gmid: -1300195958/419115 X-Wg-Thrid: -489865308 X-Wg-Rplto: -1300195958/418609 S>Has anyone ever read a scinece fiction story where the protagnist is a femal S>and doesn't have a sexual encounter? This isn't a question of prejudice, bu S>curiosity. I've jsut written such a story, and thought of this while editin S>it for submission. Sure lots... er a few... a couple. Seriously the first two _Honor Harrington_, and some of Elizabeth Moon's stories. Quite a few of the short stories in Analog, spring to mind. This of course begs the question: Why is this important? Most SF up untill the mid sixties didn't have sex for males or anyone else at least obviously. The Seatons & Cranes presumably did have sex after they were married on Osnome (and of course anyone who dares sugguest that they did before is a cad of the rankest sort) In the seventies & eighties everyone was having sex with everything else. However getting back to topic. Who cares? If the sex isn't just an add on, ie intregal to the plot. I hardly notice. Tim Tulley From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 21:06:32 1995 Received: from portal.dx.net by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA82521; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 21:06:32 -0400 Received: from heartbeat.org (heartbeat.org [199.190.113.2]) by portal.dx.net (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id MAA21179 for < [log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:10:02 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Received: from MHS by heartbeat.org with MHS id $T100217 ; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:58:00 EST Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:56:10 +0500 Subject: Pulp books series - good or bad? To: [log in to unmask] X-Wg-Gmid: -1300195958/419116 X-Wg-Thrid: 279083955 X-Wg-Rplto: -1300195958/418702 S>X-Comment: Science Fiction and Fantasy Listserv S>******************** S>In the August issue of _Science Fiction and Fantasy_ magazine there's an S>editorial about the _Goosebumps_ series that have kids doing flips to S>convince their parents to buy them, or (according to my mother-in-law...who S>works @ an elementary school library) running to the library to try and chec S>out a copy that they haven't read yet. S>The editorial stated that this was good for the SF and Fantasy business (eve S>though these books are horror) because it's getting kids to *enjoy* reading. S>the purpose of tying into a fad and giving the reader a fast-paced thrill S>that doesn't require to much thought) are pushing out promising writers with S>real meaty stuff to offer, I can't help but wonder. S>Adora S>[log in to unmask] Putting this into perspective; A true Horror tale: I work at a convention center, the facility once or twice a year has a Creation Star Dreck Convention. Last year I overheard from one of the attendies: "Why is everyone saying that Harlen Elison is such a great author? He only wrote one Star Treck episode." The moral of the tale is that crossover into real SF may not happen. Tim Tulley [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 21:09:27 1995 Received: from elvis.vnet.net by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA68321; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 21:09:27 -0400 Received: from fredrickgrimm.vnet.net by vnet.net with SMTP id AA16827 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for <[log in to unmask]>); Mon, 26 Jun 1995 20:09:14 -0500 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 20:09:14 -0500 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: [log in to unmask] X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: [log in to unmask] From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Pulp books series - good or bad? >My pal Kris Rusch made a valid point...for CHILDREN. But when we talk >Trek and Wookiecrap, we're talking about books for the adult (or teen, >which takes up the same rack space) market...and it's -here- where they >shut the new writers out (unless said writers are willing to stifle >their creativity and tell Trek and Wookie stories), and virtually >murder the midlist. > >-- Mike Resnick > Though I cannot argue that these spinoff fast-food books hurt the opportunities of new writers, I don't think the affect is as great as it appears. First of all, more books are being sold now than 10 or 15 years ago (I can't remember the statistics). Second, we all know people who read Only the Trekkie- or Wookiebooks (Wookiebooks - I love that word! Did you coin that?). These adults probably wouldn't read At All if it weren't for these books. It's like saying more copies of the New York Times would be sold if the National Enquirer didn't exist. Finally, it could be argued that these books are taking up shelf space that could be holding books by these new authors - but it seems that there is more shelfspace than ever for SF and Fantasy due to these spinoff books. Fred Grimm ==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==`==~== Fredrick Grimm [log in to unmask] Someday - I'll hav a sig of My Very Own ...then you'll ALL be sorry! HA HAHAhahahahaaa!!!!! From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 21:12:48 1995 Received: from elvis.vnet.net by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA81263; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 21:12:48 -0400 Received: from fredrickgrimm.vnet.net by vnet.net with SMTP id AA17065 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for <[log in to unmask]>); Mon, 26 Jun 1995 20:12:42 -0500 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 20:12:42 -0500 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: [log in to unmask] X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: [log in to unmask] From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Alternate Histories and SF >One other example of an Alternate History was FATHERLAND (in which Hitler > >I can only hope the book was better researched than the HBO presentation. > > It was much better - well, it was to me. You never saw Kennedy in the book but he wasn't well-thought-of. >Gary L. Warren >:[] > > >On Sat, 24 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > > >alternate >> history story. The twist is, the story Heinlien writes in set in a wrold >> where the Roman empire didn't collapse. >> I have been wanting to read this, but I thought it was by Norman Spinrad - are there two of these books? I would appreciate titles. Fred Grimm ==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==`==~== Fredrick Grimm [log in to unmask] Someday - I'll hav a sig of My Very Own ...then you'll ALL be sorry! HA HAHAhahahahaaa!!!!! From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 21:22:30 1995 Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA84457; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 21:22:30 -0400 Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id VAA02503; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 21:22:25 -0400 Date: 26 Jun 95 21:20:41 EDT From: Jeff Lemkin <[log in to unmask]> To: LOC sf discussion <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Defining SF/Fantasy:TZ postscript Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> GAE writes PS: Oh, on another topic entirely, while I enjoyed "The Twilight Zone," I have come to realize how poverty-stricken the stories are. Most of the plots consist of an individual with but one principal--and unpleasant-- character trait. This person is put in a situation in which that trait gets him into trouble, and the story usually ends with him trapped in a horrible fate, having learned An Important Lesson, sadly Too Late. Too didactic by half. The early Twilight Zone stories were all about 1/2 hour of TV-time long. Even in the pre-marketing frenzy days, I think that was about 23 minutes or so. Given the resilience of these stories and their powerful influence on so many forms of fantastic storytelling, I wouldn't define them as 'poverty-stricken'. By the description given, perhaps Aesop's Fables would also be seen as poverty-stricken. Perhaps I'm just being naive, but I've always felt that the TZ's focus on an individual character and then just an individual (or so) trait of that character was one of the things which helped bring such intensity to the productions. It certainly helped capture my attention. Cheers! -Jeff From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 21:23:00 1995 Received: from panix.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA21250; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 21:23:00 -0400 Received: (from hlavaty@localhost) by panix.com (8.6.12/8.6.12+PanixU1.1) id VAA18141; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 21:22:49 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 21:22:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Arthur Hlavaty <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Sharecropping (was: Wookiebooks) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 26 Jun 1995, Teresa J Warren wrote: > I'd also like to point out that three TREK-book writers -- Diane Duane, > Alan Dean Foster and Peter David -- made their initial niche in writing > TREK stuff, wrote some unique stories in those books (Peter David's > IZMADI and Q-SQUARED and Foster's adaptations/expansions of the cartoon > series of the early 70's), and went on to write more books OUTSIDE the > sub-genre. Has these three writers' quality of work suffered? I think not! > > If memory serves, all three of these were known for other work before they did Trekbooks. Duane had already started the Door Into series; Foster had already started the Flinx books; and David had written a novel about King Arthur coming back (title forgotten) and was known as a comics scripter, which may or may not count. Duane's *The Wounded Sky* is by far my favorite Trekbook because I see it as excellent metaphysical sf with a couple of familiar-named characters in minor roles. I suspect that it is harder to get away with that now. From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 22:07:19 1995 Received: from [204.182.15.10] by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA95160; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 22:07:19 -0400 Received: from B17.Catch22.COM (espana@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by B17.Catch22.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA20201 for <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 19:12:00 -0700 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Url: http://www.Catch22.COM/ X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6 4/21/95 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF and Fantasy In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 26 Jun 1995 21:25:43 EDT." <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 19:12:00 -0700 From: Espana Nunez <[log in to unmask]> > Usually, a story containing both fantasy and sci-fi elements can be considered sci fi, >since SF does not preclude magic, while fantasy is firmly rooted into a modern or >earlier tech level. The defining factor of SF is technology level, and anything that is >neither at a later date nor a higher tech level than the time at which it is written is not >SF. I am intrigued by the notion that SF and fantasy can be distinguished by the level of technology they display or the time in which they are set. ************ What about stories that don't really care about technological level? Alot of the SF I grew up reading and loving (since I love short stories above all) where 1950's and "New wave", many of the former where just plain weird and many of the the later where drug-trip types. I'll grant my own definition of SF is pretty inclusive (although I dont tend to read much Fantasy). So are all those Ellison stories SF? Or Fantastic Literature? or Speculative Fiction (the vaguenes of theis one is what always apealed to me) or what? And Howard Waldrop (The Ugly Chickens fr'instance) or "Casey Agonistes" (my guess is that would probably end up as Fantasy)? Or the story about the telepath by an author I dont remember"Is Anybody Out There"? I can't think of any more examples off the top of my head, but I'll look through my bookshelves and I'm sure there's many more of that type, Im sure many are easily categorized as Fantasy but not all, by a long shot. -- Espana N. Sheriff "Hip-Hop Bishop of Beat! The Cool, [log in to unmask] Gone Daddio of the Deva Dimensions!" http://www.Catch22.COM/~espana -Doom Patrol From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 22:09:25 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA51415; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 22:09:25 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA234428777; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 22:06:17 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 22:06:17 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Fantasy and SF >I'm new to this group so I might be repeating someone else. If so, >sorry to waste your time. > >I would say that the basic difference is that in (good) SF, the >improbable/impossible happening are (at least partially) supported >by scientific explaination. Whereas in fantasy we must simply take >everything on faith. I assume that you'll agree that Heinlein's _Stranger in a Strange Land_ was fantasy, NOT SF? From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 22:47:55 1995 Received: from condor.CC.UMontreal.CA by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA98688; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 22:47:55 -0400 Received: from eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA (eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA [132.204.10.20]) by condor.CC.UMontreal.CA with ESMTP id WAA19117 (8.6.11/IDA-1.6 for <[log in to unmask]>); Mon, 26 Jun 1995 22:46:56 -0400 Received: by eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA (950221.405.SGI.8.6.10/5.17) id WAA29281; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 22:46:55 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 22:46:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]> Reply-To: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Abominations done in publ... To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Mon, 26 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > I don't know... My local library also, as you would say, "lumped F and SF" > together, but I kind of like it. Instead of thinking which section they > might've put _the City_ in, I just go and look up S for Simak. Easier... > And BTW, what is Dewrey Decimal System ??? A library programming language ? It is a numerical coding system used to shelve books by subject in most public libraries in North America. It was devised by Melvil Dewey, a very methodical librarian, more than a 100 years ago but has been continuously updated by the non-profit corporation he set up and the continuous intellectual contributions of thousands of librarians. There are 10 main categories 0 is for general knowledge (Library Science and computer programming are in this) 1 is for Philosophy 2 is for Religion 3 is for Social Sciences 4 is for Language 5 is for Science 6 is for Technology (Rocket tech. but also business techniques and practices) 7 is for Art and crafts (moviemaking, architecture and others included) 8 is for literature 9 is for geography and History. Within each of these 10 categories there are a further 10 divisions and within each of those a further 10 subdivisions, and so on... In theory all books in a public library could get their Dewey number and be all shelved by subject but in practice most (if not 99%) of public libraries find it convenient to use the Dewey decimal system only on non-fiction books and shelve fiction alphabetically, by author. And, as we have already noted most public libraries will do a further breakdown of their fiction collection according to genre or languages. In the Dewey decimal _The_making_of_Star_Trek_ by Stephen E. Whitfield would probably get a code like 791.457 because it is about the making of a TV series while _The_art_of_"The empire strikes back"_ edited by Deborah Call, would probably get a code like 791.4372 because it is about making a movie. A book about the religion of Gene Roddenberry would probably get a code starting with 261 or 291. A book about the link between militarism in the Star Trek universe and american militarism in the era of the cold war would probably get a code starting with 355 while a book about Science fiction as a literary phenomenon in the USA would get a code starting with 823 and so on... There is nobody to stop you from adding subdivisions to further refine the subject. No fanatic "sons of Dewey" and no Library of Congress agents to keep you from making monster Dewey codes or from adding your inventions to Library of Congress Subject Headings. {Freeze you Turkey! Put down that copy of AACR3 real slow!!}{Chief, look, ... look at what they penciled in that dog-eared copy of LCSH!!!}{ Oh my God!!} Personally, I put all my SF and Fantasy fiction under 398.4 and am just itching to subdivide it even further once I get a look at the SF thesaurus Colleen Stumbaugh and others cook up and at the decimal classification of Fantasy that Alastair Cameron made 40 years ago. Au revoir! DE: Alain Vaillancourt [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 23:07:38 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA78144; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:07:38 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA153342269; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:04:29 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:04:29 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: 2001 >To dismiss a film as too long is also catering to attention spans that are very short and Hollywood/movie theatre desires to hvae sub 2 hour stuff so they can make more money, too. If it is too long and _boring_ and padded that is different, but length is not a bad thing in and of itself. I am very sensitive to lengths of movies. I mean I find the majority too long and boring. Many is the time a movie has been ruined because I can feel my brain cells dying at the useless parts. You can call this a short attention span, but I can't stand any self-indulgent material which does not add to the movie in some way. There were many such spots in 2001. I did not find watching those apes for what felt like forever or the funny, waving, unending colors thought-provoking; these parts were pointless and should have been removed. They deaden the brain, making one less alert for the important parts. Understand, I liked the movie, but that was in spite of its flaws and Kubrick's addiction to imagery in preference to substance. Sean D. From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 23:07:39 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA52845; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:07:39 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA074452458; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:07:38 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:07:38 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Literary Science Fiction Let's work from the basics. -There's writing. -There's art. Differing definitions, but I agree with Ayn Rand on this one: a concrete expression of one's abstract views of the nature of life. -There's literature: writing that is art. -There's SF: I've given my developing definition before (and don't want to go through all that again). -SF literature: SF writing that is art. But I think most use the term to mean literary SF that expresses itself WELL. Sean D. From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 23:23:14 1995 Received: from bos1g.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA65489; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:23:14 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:23:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:23:11 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Sharecropping (was: Wookiebooks) To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Foster was a very popular sf writer -before- he did the Trektoon stuff. And never ask a writer to comment on the quality of other writers. We don't do it. They might comment on -us- in return. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 23:40:35 1995 Received: from UWSTOUT.EDU by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA52000; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:40:35 -0400 Received: from UWSTOUT.EDU by UWSTOUT.EDU (PMDF V4.3-7 #4883) id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 22:41:00 CST Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 22:41:00 -0600 (CST) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Poetry To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT There are useful discussions of science fiction poetry in both Anatomy of Wonder, 4th edition, edited by Neil Barron and Clute and Nichols Encyclope- dia of Science Fiction. Probably the best collection of science fiction poetry is Robert Frazier's Burning with a Vision. Also good is Terry A. Garey's anthology Time Frames. You might also check out each of the Nebula Awards anthologies. These are primarily short fiction, but also include each year's winner of the Rhysling Award for outstanding fantasy and sf poetry. There's also an organization, The Science Fiction Poetry Association. If anyone wants their mailing address I can look it up. They publish a magazine called Star*Line. SF poets I particularly recommend: Robert Frazier, Bruce Boston, David Lunde, Denise Dumars, Sandra Lindow, Joe Haldeman, Tom Disch, Ursula K. LeGuin, Ruth Berman, Sonya Dorman, Andrew Joron, Steve Sneyd, Jane Yolen, John Calvin Rezmerski. Mike Levy From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 23:45:49 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA37349; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:45:49 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA110414749; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:45:49 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:45:49 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Alternate Histories and SF Real-life technological events happening earlier than they did in the real world does not turn it into SF. From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 23:46:04 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA72460; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:46:04 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA210784763; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:46:03 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:46:03 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Fantasy and SF In far-ahead SF, there is often no technological basis. The perfect examples include "Star Wars" and "Buck Rogers in the 25th Century". From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 23:46:18 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA85798; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:46:18 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA211794777; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:46:17 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:46:17 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Fantasy books? I strongly agree with most of your message--the book is another example of lumping SF and fantasy together and calling them SF *or* calling them fantasy--but I feel that horror, such as Dracula and Rosemary's Baby, can usually be seen as a type of fantasy. It often meets all the fantasy requirements(takes place now or before, contains supernatural elements, etc.). The exceptions would include horror stories containing no supernatural elements, most often falling under the "Mad Slasher" category, and horror stories taking place in the future. From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 23:46:29 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA09024; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:46:29 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA112854789; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:46:29 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:46:29 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: More on Douglas Adams... 1. That would be an ENORMOUS coincidence(not that Douglas Adams doesn't like coincidences, but he usually draws the reader's attention to them, instead of just having them be assumed). 2. Since Agrajag *will get* shot in the future, there obviously has to be a future, which, at the end of Mostly Harmless, there obviously *won't be*(note use of future tense). From cstu Tue Jun 27 13:20:35 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA54624; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 13:20:35 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 13:20:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: More on Douglas Adams Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:46:29 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: More on Douglas Adams... 1. That would be an ENORMOUS coincidence(not that Douglas Adams doesn't like coincidences, but he usually draws the reader's attention to them, instead of just having them be assumed). 2. Since Agrajag *will get* shot in the future, there obviously has to be a future, which, at the end of Mostly Harmless, there obviously *won't be*(note use of future tense). From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 23:46:42 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA09044; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:46:42 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA113404802; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:46:42 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:46:42 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: 2001 and Blade Runner I don't understand how you can like a movie as boring as 2001, and, at the other end of the scale, one as corny, Disneyish and action-packed as Star Wars. I love the second two Star Warses, but the first one is way too cheesy for me. From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 23:46:58 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA38252; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:46:58 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA213964817; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:46:57 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:46:57 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy (fwd) What makes you think that Star Trek is fantasy? To me, Star Trek is the quintessential SF. The only argument against would be that it lacks scientific bases, but in this day and age, only an idealistic purist would apply that test to all works and call them fantasy if they do not pass. SF has come to mean, "Fiction taking place in the future or in a more advanced world than that in which it is written." As such, Star Trek is SF. From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 23:47:07 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA72582; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:47:07 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA114774827; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:47:07 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:47:07 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Fwd: Re: Why I brought up SF vs. F... OK, don't just describe the setting to me, describe the plot as well. my challenge stands. --------------------- Forwarded message: From: [log in to unmask] Sender: [log in to unmask] Reply-to: [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] (Multiple recipients of list) Date: 95-06-26 10:08:08 EDT >I was not saying that never the twain shall meet. However, i am offering >this challenge: summarize a setting, and I will tell you whether it's fantasy >or SF, and justify my answer. Blast away. Impossible. It is not possible to know a book or a movie or whatever to be F or SF by setting _alone_. Example: Simak. Most of his books start of as SF and go into F... "The Goblin Reservation". From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 23:47:44 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA88000; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:47:44 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA216454863; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:47:44 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:47:44 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF vs. Fantasy, Alternate History Division I(sorry, you don't have my name handy, I'm lambor w/no caps) don't think that Alternate histories are automatically SF. If they have no superior technology and they take place now or before, why should they be? From [log in to unmask] Mon Jun 26 23:48:05 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA68060; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:48:05 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA035914884; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:48:04 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:48:04 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Fwd: Sharecropping (was: Wookiebooks) I agree to your comments, with one exception: In the series of novels based on Star Trek and Star Trek: The Next Generation, one can find some excellent SF writing, which is very faithful to the original shows. See especially the work of Diane Duane. --------------------- Forwarded message: From: [log in to unmask] Sender: [log in to unmask] Reply-to: [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] (Multiple recipients of list) Date: 95-06-26 11:41:03 EDT I don't want to bait Mike Resnick any more than others already have (especially since I agree with him in general outline), but I do feel compelled to point out that not all work-for-hire books are the same. Just as we all feel comfortable making literary judgments about "normal" (creator- controlled and owned) books, and have been sliding into such judgments on films (which have many of the same problems of work-for-hire books, exacerbated by the much larger numbers of people involved in ostensibly creative work and the possibilities of making huge amounts of cash), we should be able to make literary judgments about books featuring, say, Luke Skywalker or Doctor Who. And, if we're intellectually honest, the answer won't be a dismissive harrumpf (echoing all those Lit-Crit types who look down their noses at SF), but a real attempt to judge them reasonably. Admittedly, Sturgeon's Law operates in this field with a vengeance: I wouldn't be willing to admit even 10 % of the tie-in books published are actually worth reading. And there is an additional, extra-literary, aspect that is vitally related to the possible worth of such a book, even before it's written. And that's the willingness of the licensor to allow the writer to do his job without their constant interference. The only media-driven series I've read much of are the Stars Trek and Wars, so I'll use them for my examples. Trek is very tightly controlled by Paramount Pictures, and the books show it. Nothing is allowed to deviate in the slightest from the TV/Movie gospel, and, since more "real" (i.e., movies) works are planned, nothing really new can happen. So the very best Trek novel (Peter David's _Q-Squared_, is the one I'd pick), is a decent, if flat and faintly pointless, novel. Most of them are just silly dreck, despite the best efforts of some quite prominent authors (not simply the newcomers, as Resnick implied). I don't know why anyone would _want_ to write a Trek novel, except for the money: you're not allowed to have anything change and I don't find the universe terribly compelling in the first place. But they're all bestsellers (NY Times, not simply genre), so my view is the minority one. Star Wars, on the other hand, has been allowed much greater flexibility by Lucasfilm, primarily (I imagine) because George Lucas isn't going to ever make another movie with these characters. As long as things end up in the right place for his next movie trilogy (set 50 years later or so, I believe), it's fine with him. So the characters are allowed to change (not a lot, I'll grant you, but their actions have consequences and repercussions and affect things in later books). And so the net is set higher. I'd still not claim that any Star Wars book could be great, that it would be the kind of thing we'd normally discuss here and would have an effect on the history of the field, but it is possible to write a good novel set in this universe. Barbara Hambly (current President of SFFWA, as it happens) has done one, _Children of the Jedi_. And the general run-of-the-mill Star Wars novel is a fun space opera, wtihout much depth or weight, but without the feeling of meaninglessness that infests Trek. I can understand a writer _wanting_ to write a Star Wars book, and actually having an idea that might be fun to write, as I can't with Trek. I guess my point here was just to defend writers who do a sharecropped book as not necessarily contributing to the inevitable destruction of themselves and the field. Most of these books, admittedly, have no reason to be, are consumed by people who don't read much, if any, other SF/Fantasy, and take up rack space that we'd all rather see go to original works. But: 1) that's not true of all of them, 2) every book bought and read by a TV person is a blow for literacy, even if a very light one and 3) as I've written before, more original SF/Fantasy is being published than just about any time in the past, certainly more than any normal person can read. And most of that is crap, too. From the point of view of an typical New SF Writer, whose choice may be either A: write a mediocre original novel, see it fail to sell out a pessimistic first printing and know things will probably be worse for book # 2 or B: write a mediocre tie-in novel, make more money even with the tiny royalties than you would ever see from an original first novel, and then still have the opportunity to go back to A:, the choice isn't really weighted on the side of righteousness. Andy Wheeler From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 00:43:47 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23398; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 00:43:47 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA077198227; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 00:43:47 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 00:43:47 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Magic vs supernatural > ...is it fantasy until you find out that it is post-apocalyptic? Yep, sure is. And if you tore out the last 50 pages or whatever of the book, it would be a work of fantasy. Of course, if being post-apocalyptic does no actually *matter* to the theme(although this is hard to imagine), then the work could be considered fantasy. From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 00:44:16 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA77192; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 00:44:16 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA078388256; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 00:44:16 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 00:44:16 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Fwd: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy If it is, "oh darn." --------------------- Forwarded message: From: [log in to unmask] (Richard Scott) Sender: [log in to unmask] Reply-to: [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] (Multiple recipients of list) Date: 95-06-26 19:20:35 EDT That is a helluva condemning definition, isn't it? Gonna make a lot of people mad. :-) AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place On Sun, 25 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > > I don't recall the source, but I believe that the best definition of Science > Fiction that I have read is "If you remove the science from the story and > there is no story left, then it is science fiction. For an example, consider > Mary Shelley's _Frankenstein_." The quote is not exact, but the gist is > there. > > From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 00:44:22 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA38292; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 00:44:22 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA078638261; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 00:44:22 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 00:44:22 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy SF does not have to be realistic. Star Wars is some of the least-possible SF. From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 00:44:30 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA58280; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 00:44:30 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA276498270; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 00:44:30 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 00:44:30 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Fwd: re: Lambor's definition of SF In other words, I am wrong because lots of people disagree with me? Sorry, i just don't think that way. --------------------- Forwarded message: From: [log in to unmask] Sender: [log in to unmask] Reply-to: [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] (Multiple recipients of list) Date: 95-06-26 20:37:13 EDT OK, time for a little syllogysm: Major Premise: SF writers, editors, critics and noted fans have always (with few eceptions) categorized Alternate Histories as SF. Minor Premise: Your simplified categorization (i.e., SF is fiction set chronologically letter than the date it was written) denies that Alternate Histories are SF. Your Conclusion: Alternate Histories aren't SF Everyone Else's Conclusion: Your categorization is too simple, since it fails a simple "real-world" test. Andy Wheeler P.S. What about time travel stories? From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 00:44:52 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA52923; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 00:44:52 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA156158103; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 00:41:44 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 00:41:44 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Fwd: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy That definition would make almost any story involving technology, even normal modern technology such as the tech I'm using to send this message, SF. Furthermore, what if the setting is obviously SF, but the problem is solved through a non-technological method? --------------------- Forwarded message: From: [log in to unmask] Sender: [log in to unmask] Reply-to: [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] (Multiple recipients of list) Date: 95-06-26 21:54:51 EDT Though it is of no use in distinguishing science fiction from fantasy, a modified quote from Theodore Sturgeon can help to distinguish each of them from the mainstream: "A science fiction story is a story with a human problem and a human solution--neither of which would have happened without some scientific or technological element." A simple substitution of "fantasy" and "fantastic" at the key points will cover most everything else that is frequently seen as not science fiction but more closely connected to it than to anything else in the literary world. [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 01:36:11 1995 Received: from mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA26710; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 01:36:11 -0400 Received: (from g9426147@localhost) by mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA (8.6.9/8.6.9) id BAA23139; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 01:37:09 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 01:37:08 -0400 (EDT) From: "M.L. Davis" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: titles... To: "Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>" <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Something that I have noticed on this (& other) lists is a certain... casualness with regard to titles. Not that I mean that we necessarily butcher a title (although that has happened), but we tend to include a shrugged 'or something like that.' I'd like to ask some of the writers on this list (Mike, George, et al.) what their feeling on the issue is. Since Mike's been fairly open on the writing process (we already know how long it takes him to speed through an award-winning manuscript) maybe he'll comment. How emotionally attached do you become to your titles--do they change during the editing/ publishing process? Do you visibly cringe when someone buggers one of them up (particularly a clever one)? Or do you take a more philosophical view of the issue--as long as people are reading them & liking them it doesn't matter much if they haven't the foggiest what their called. Just wondering. Marie ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::: "That which does not kill me, makes me funnier" ::: ::: - Dennis Miller ::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 01:51:45 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA26748; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 01:51:45 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA121572305; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 01:51:45 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 01:51:45 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Ancient fantasy literature Adora ([log in to unmask]) wrote: "Along these same lines is _The Metamorphosis_, I don't remember the author's name (perhaps someone else can fill this in for me - it's been a couple of years since I checked out a copy)" The author was Ovid. Gary Gary L. Swaty From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 01:55:43 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA92079; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 01:55:43 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA060602543; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 01:55:43 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 01:55:43 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Tie in books OK, I'm going to get killed for this, but.... I am obviously in a minority as a newbie, and as someone who will admit to reading Trek tie in books, but I felt I had to say something. Even if Trek spinoffs are head candy, they do get people to read. (Not *my* problem, but as an example they got my 33 year old brother to start reading again after he swore off books in high school.) And excuse me if I enjoy reading them as just fun escapism... I know this doesn't address the stifling of teh 'midrange' that Mike Resnick has complained of, but I haven't noticed a large drop in new authors in SF/F at *my* bookstore.... I'm still buying them by teh dozen. Flame away, I'm wearing kevlar. -Mary Matthesen From cstu Tue Jun 27 14:51:45 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA24539; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 14:51:45 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 14:51:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: No flaming, please! Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >Flame away, I'm wearing kevlar. > >-Mary Matthesen Please do not! With our current abundance of messages, it would really swamp me and besides, flaming is highly discouraged. Several of you will have received messages from me where I refused to post a message that got a little too hot, or at least post it in that form. So please count to 10, take a deep breath, and save the flames for the fireplace. Colleen Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 02:39:04 1995 Received: from mail.swip.net by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA78144; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 02:39:04 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Received: by mail.swip.net with UUCP (8.6.8/3.01) id IAA10126; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 08:44:06 +0200 Received: from lkp by lkp.ifsab.se (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09549; Tue, 27 Jun 95 08:27:18 +0200 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 08:00:18 +0200 To: [log in to unmask]@lkpsun.lkp.ifsab.se Subject: Re: Mostly Harmless (really Terry Pratchett) X-Vms-To: SMTP%"[log in to unmask]@lkpsun" > I'd suggest _Good Omens_, by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett. (sp?) I haven't > read Pratchett's other stuff, but I'm told it's in a similar vein to Adams, > except it's fantasy rather than SF. Good Omens is certainly very funny. I've read the entire diskworld series (as available in paperback -- something like 16 parts). While I can agree with your characterization of Pratchett being like Adams, only in fantasy for the first few books in the series, this is not the case once we're talking about the newer DW books. The earlier books rely heavily on slapstick, puns and making fun of cliches from fantasy literature/films. The later books rely on such strange things as good plotting and well-drawn characters. The outrageous puns and persistent subversion of cliches (both from fantasy and other things -- Pratchett is obviously a fan of the movie _Blues Brothers_) is just an added bonus. I also think it is something of a relief to read a series that doesn't take itself totally seriously. Pratchett openly admids that the discworld geography is flexible -- if something he wants to do will contradict something he has already done earlier he'll gladly go ahead anyway. Try some recent discworld novels (the reading order is not really important). I don't think you'll regret it. / Hans From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 03:10:34 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA77140; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 03:10:34 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 08:10:24 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Tue, 27 Jun 95 08:10:20 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Tie-In Novels Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 08:10:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 37 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Andy Sawyer: >I am without doubt a fan of the TV series Babylon 5 and agree with what's >been written above: I think for once we have someone who is prepared to >use some intelligence and storytelling skill to flesh out the series. It's >also been brilliantly marketed to appeal to the "literate media fan", but >that's part of its appeal. I've only read one of the novelisations, however, >and it didn't seem to me to be any different in essence from any other >novelisation I'd read. I like the TV series a lot, but have no real desire >to follow it up in book form - there are many more imaginative books, it seems >to me, than the one B5 spinoff I read. But then, I rarely read spinoffs >anyway: >I tend to agree with what Mike has said. Let's give some people a chance to >do their OWN things. Having sung the praises of B5 and all who sail in her, I must say that I'm not surprised if the novelisations are less than revolutionary (still waiting for a chance to read them, myself). Perhaps a significant thing about them, though, literary merit aside, is that Straczynski tries (or, to be fair, he claims to try and I see no reason to disbelieve him) to ensure that they deal with the current themes of the show in a way that slots into the current season at the time of writing, and complements it. This is certainly the case with the (very few) associated comics. I hope that the things are enjoyable, at least, since I am impressed by the apparent integrity of the project as a whole and it would be a shame if they were clunky things. I agree, in the main, that the TV series should best be considered as just that (if at all...). On the other hand since the other stuff exists I'm also quite keen to see how it's been integrated. This is a complicated beast. And of course we can all now wait and see whether John Vornholt's mind implodes while his creativity deserts him as a result. Dave From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 04:13:32 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA92093; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 04:13:32 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 08:33:38 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Tue, 27 Jun 95 08:33:34 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: SF v. Fantasy Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 08:32:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 17 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 >Are genres really categories, or are they ways of reading and >writing? If the latter, it doesn't make sense to argue about whether >a particular story is SF or fantasy. Instead, a book like Gene >Wolfe's _Book of the New Sun_ can be approached by saying, "Well, it >functions like fantasy in these ways and like SF in those other >ways." > >Brian Attebery >([log in to unmask]) I think this is about the most pertinent, useful and concise remark I've seen in this thread. I just wanted to say that. Dave From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 05:05:24 1995 Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA69065; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 05:05:24 -0400 Received: from uxa.liv.ac.uk by mail.liv.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:04:59 +0100 From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Dahl interactives To: [log in to unmask] Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:04:56 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Patricia Reynolds" at Jun 26, 95 09:31:11 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 780 In the last mail Patricia Reynolds said: > > I mentioned in an earlier post that I am currently developing Dahl > interactives at Buckinghamshire County Museum, and Andy Sawyer asked > to hear more. > > > I think Andy would appreciate the section on personal hygene ... > introduced by the Twits. Whaddya mean? I've washed TWICE this month!> It all sounds fascinating, and congratulations on the Lottery funding. If I ever get down to Bucks I must visit. -- Andy Sawyer, Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK 0151-794-2733/2696 [log in to unmask] http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html "Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 06:00:35 1995 Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA93807; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 06:00:35 -0400 Received: from uxa.liv.ac.uk by mail.liv.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:12:06 +0100 From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Films To: [log in to unmask] Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:12:03 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Moonbeam" at Jun 7, 95 02:29:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 854 In the last mail Moonbeam said: > > > On Wed, 7 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > > > > > I propose yet another "Best Of" list for consideration: Which novel, novella > > > or short story in the SF genre would you most like to see given a top-shelf, > > > feature grade cinematic treatment? > > I would like to see Battlefield Earth done - though it might take a > miniseries to do it well. > I can think of nothing more horrendous - apart from having to read the book again. So I suspect that this is going to happen someday :-) -- Andy Sawyer, Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK 0151-794-2733/2696 [log in to unmask] http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html "Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 06:00:41 1995 Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA52339; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 06:00:41 -0400 Received: from uxa.liv.ac.uk by mail.liv.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:23:08 +0100 From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: SF and Fantasy on the same shelves (Fwd from moderator) To: [log in to unmask] Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:23:07 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Colleen Stumbaugh" at Jun 26, 95 07:24:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1699 In the last mail Colleen Stumbaugh said: > > > SF is just not one genre -- it is a collection of overlapping genres that > interact with each other, bouncing off each other in rather wonderful > ways. This may make the great mass of stuff that falls under that > category hard to sift through, but it can also be a very good thing. > > Stephanie > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Stephanie A. Hall, Archivist The Library of Congress > American Folklife Center preserves and houses > Library of Congress countless ideas and opinions. > Washington, DC 20540-8100 Those expressed here > [log in to unmask] are my own. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Exactly! This is the exciting thing about sf - that you can pick up one book classified as sf and it can be extremely different from the book next to it. I think most sf readers read fantasy (though I'm not sure whether it's the other way round), but more to the point most of the really well-read people in all kinds of writing that I know are sf readers. Which is one of the reasons I can't take discussions about specific genre boundaries too seriously (though they can be useful for clarifying your thoughts about why you like/dislike a particular book). > > -- Andy Sawyer, Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK 0151-794-2733/2696 [log in to unmask] http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html "Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 06:00:42 1995 Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA68218; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 06:00:42 -0400 Received: from uxa.liv.ac.uk by mail.liv.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:29:13 +0100 From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Poetry To: [log in to unmask] Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:29:10 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "set chaos/total" at Jun 26, 95 08:03:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 826 In the last mail set chaos/total said: > > I have occasionally come across some selections of SF poetry, e.g., David > Gerrold's "The Badlands", some stuff by Joe Haldeman, but only very > occasionally. Are there any anthologies of or sources for SF poetry out there? > > Nancy > Try the SF Poetry Association which publishes a magazine called STAR*LINE. Address is Margaret B Simon, 1412 NE 35th ST, Ocala FL 34479. That's probably the best source I know in the States, but there are others in the UK. -- Andy Sawyer, Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK 0151-794-2733/2696 [log in to unmask] http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html "Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 06:11:42 1995 Received: from gilbert.ucc.hull.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA93911; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 06:11:42 -0400 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Received: from humus.ucc.hull.ac.uk (actually host adelphi-le0.ucc.hull.ac.uk) by gilbert.ucc.hull.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:42:40 +0100 Received: from humus.computer-centre.hull.ac.uk by humus.computer-centre.hull.ac.uk id <[log in to unmask]>; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:42:36 +0100 Subject: Re: Poetry To: [log in to unmask] Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:42:33 +0100 (BST) From: Andy Butler <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "set chaos/total" at Jun 26, 95 08:03:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1014 Sender: [log in to unmask] On sf poetry: There's an ancient (well 1968 or 1969) anthology Holding Your Eight Hands edited by Edward Lucie-Smith, London: Rapp + Whiting which has stuff by D M Thomas, John Sladek and Thom Disch amongst others (and Thom Disch is an excellent poet, if rarely an sf poet). More recently there was an American anthology Poly, whose details escape me. This has people like Bruce boston and Andy Darlington. The UK expert on sf poetry is Steve Sneyd, Hilltop Press, 4 Nowell Place, Almondbury, Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, HD5 8PB, UK, who produces a legible if cramped (or information dense) newsletter / factsheet called Data Dump. (30p or a dollar each, cheques to S Sneyd. Send him a SSAE or whatever those reply coupons things are for details). Cheers Andy Butler Joint co-ordinator Academic Fantastic Fiction Network English Department University of Hull Hull UK [log in to unmask] "We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?" From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 06:32:20 1995 Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA78645; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 06:32:20 -0400 Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id GAA05100; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 06:32:19 -0400 Date: 27 Jun 95 06:31:41 EDT From: Jeff Lemkin <[log in to unmask]> To: LOC sf discussion <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Women in SF Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Has anyone ever read a scinece fiction story where the protagnist is a female and doesn't have a sexual encounter? This isn't a question of prejudice, but curiosity. I've just written such a story, and thought of this while editing it for submission. ******************** The _Taylor's Ark_ series by Jody Lynn Nye has a strong female protagonist (Dr. Shona Taylor) who is basically too busy to find the time for sexual encounters, though it's clear she wishes she had a little spare time from her constant world-saving endeavours. This creates more dimension to her character, IMO, and intriguing tensions in the novels themselves. Lois McMaster Bujold's novel _The Spirit Ring_ also has a female protagonist (Fiametta) who certainly isn't adverse to having a sexual encounter, but just can't seem to find the time! Again, I find this adds to the story and strengthens the character. Finally, Vernor Vinge, in _Grimm's World_ (and then in expanded release, _Tatja Grimm's World_) presents a female character who's light years ahead of the run of the mill inhabitants of her world, both mentally and physically. She may well have sexual encounters, but if indeed she has them, they are referenced so obliquely that their primary effect is one of deepening the mysterious side to her character and origins. She's smart, and in such a way that her intelligence is highly stimulating to some of the other characters in the book. <><><<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> If you don't mind branching off into SF drama, Caryl Churchill's _Moving Clocks Go Slow_ has three very strong women and (if I recall correctly) no sexual encounters. 00000000000000000000000000000000000000 >Asimov's Susan Calvin ********************* Do you really think Susan Calvin is a good example? She was such a stereotypically frigid female scientist. Granted, she only had one 'love interest' in _I, Robot_ but even that was the 'woman meets a handsome man and falls head over silly heels for him, therby threatening her career, and then lashes out in viscious anger when she realizes she's not pretty enough or silly enough for him' plot. It would seem that Susan Calvin is the opposit to the 'breeder' streotype - the smart, and therby sexually uninteresting, woman. Of course, this is all IMHO. Adora [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 06:44:27 1995 Received: from IS.Dal.Ca by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA67892; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 06:44:27 -0400 Received: by is.dal.ca (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA39941; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 07:45:43 -0300 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 07:45:42 -0300 (ADT) From: Patricia Monk <[log in to unmask]> Subject: The Importance of Non-sexist Language To: [log in to unmask] In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 26 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > I have to respond to Dave's opinion on the apparent silliness of > hypersensitivity to sexist language. [snip, snip, snip] > So then, I would suppose that women's effort to create their own language is > the first step in this direction. The other thing that I would advise is for > all people to stop being hypersensitive to people's word choice and pay more > attention to the message. > AllGrill But "the medium IS the message." ***************************************************************** patricia monk (dr) [log in to unmask] "just visiting this planet" ***************************************************************** From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 06:51:45 1995 Received: from IS.Dal.Ca by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA68299; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 06:51:45 -0400 Received: by is.dal.ca (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA78723; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 07:53:00 -0300 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 07:53:00 -0300 (ADT) From: Patricia Monk <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Literary Science Fiction To: [log in to unmask] In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 26 Jun 1995, R. I. Martin wrote: > I notice a lot of discussion about the difference between > fantasy and SF, but *my* burning question is this: > What's the difference between "literary" SF and the rest of it? > Given that the original intent of this group (at least as > I understand it) was to serve as a forum for literary SF, it > seems to me this is a germane question. Any takers? > Roger: I am not sure that I, for one, understand your question. All SF is literary to some extent, because it's written. Are you talking about the difference between "writerly" and "readerly" texts? ***************************************************************** patricia monk (dr) [log in to unmask] "just visiting this planet" ***************************************************************** From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 06:54:39 1995 Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA91922; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 06:54:39 -0400 Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id GAA10573; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 06:54:38 -0400 Date: 27 Jun 95 06:53:01 EDT From: Jeff Lemkin <[log in to unmask]> To: LOC sf discussion <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: "Non-sexist language" - pointless wild goose chase. Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> <[log in to unmask] writes> I am also tired of the pervasiveness of political correctness. It's getting so that no one listens to what you say and only to how you say it. However, I do agree that all language has its roots in patriarchy because language was created under patriarchal regimes. It is, therefore, inherently skewed toward the masculine. Such words as "history" and "seminal" would, of course, have masculine undertones because those who created the language used themselves -- and naturallly, their own masculinity -- as a point of reference. >I would maintain that language is not inherently skewed towards a patriarchal viewpoint. There are a number of conflicting opinions as to the formsof the cultures which were extant when languages were being developed. In any case, taking words and modifying them to have a more <matriarchal??> flavor really begs the question of human understanding. The bias towards patri-matri-archal flavors is really a cultural one, which is imposed on a matrix of common understanding and executed by a common understanding of the words. Thus, they are not inherently m/f, they are rather being used to represent m/f viewpoints in a cultural overlay. They could just as easily represent other viewpoints, depending on the shared understandings of the speakers. An interesting example of this type of language useage can be found in David Brin's _Glory Season_, where relatively standard terminology is often stood on its head as he explores the intensely matriarchal society and female protagonist who is moving on a sort of quest through that society. Since the majority of children born are clones of their mothers, this leads to some unusual, yet very reasonable deformations of what I might consider 'standard' language. By and large, the terms are the same, but the context and implications of those terms are stood on their head by the wonderfully imagined cultural matrix of the world Stratos. -Jeff From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 07:49:41 1995 Received: from portal.dx.net by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA88914; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 07:49:41 -0400 Received: from heartbeat.org (heartbeat.org [199.190.113.2]) by portal.dx.net (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id HAA01407 for < [log in to unmask]>; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 07:54:23 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Received: from MHS by heartbeat.org with MHS id $T100104 ; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 07:41:24 EST Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 07:41:06 +0500 Subject: Re: Sharecropping (was: Wookiebooks) To: [log in to unmask] X-Wg-Gmid: -1300195958/419622 X-Wg-Thrid: 878193310 X-Wg-Rplto: -1300195958/419390 Mike Resnick said: S>Andy Wheeler: I go for the even more basic question than whether media S>books are worth reading, and ask whether they're worth writing. As someone S>who turned down offers last year to do both a Trekbook and a Wookie trilogy, S>you can guess my answer. I 99% agree with you Mr. Resnick, but I still have a secret desire to see _Alternate Enterprises_. Although I get the feeling that Paramount wouldn't! Tim Tulley [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 07:50:16 1995 Received: from portal.dx.net by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA90982; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 07:50:16 -0400 Received: from heartbeat.org (heartbeat.org [199.190.113.2]) by portal.dx.net (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id HAA01710 for < [log in to unmask]>; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 07:54:54 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Received: from MHS by heartbeat.org with MHS id $T100105 ; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 07:41:56 EST Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 07:41:08 +0500 Subject: Literary Science Fiction To: [log in to unmask] X-Wg-Gmid: -1300195958/419623 X-Wg-Thrid: 1146513332 X-Wg-Rplto: -1300195958/419479 S>Hi folks, my name is Roger Martin. Hi Roger! S>I notice a lot of discussion about the difference between S>fantasy and SF, but *my* burning question is this: S>What's the difference between "literary" SF and the rest of it? IMHO literary SF is written for reading not from screenplays. Thus _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ is literary while the novlization of _Bladerunner_ isn't. 2001 is a special case as the book was written with not from the movie. S>Any takers? Took. Tim Tulley [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 07:50:45 1995 Received: from portal.dx.net by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA73606; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 07:50:45 -0400 Received: from heartbeat.org (heartbeat.org [199.190.113.2]) by portal.dx.net (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id HAA02033 for < [log in to unmask]>; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 07:55:23 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Received: from MHS by heartbeat.org with MHS id $T100106 ; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 07:42:24 EST Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 07:41:08 +0500 Subject: Re: written vs. films To: [log in to unmask] X-Wg-Gmid: -1300195958/419624 X-Wg-Thrid: 1902792979 X-Wg-Rplto: -1300195958/419393 S>>>I just don't agree that they [media books] are the Great Creeping Evil S>out to destroy science fiction.<< S>The Great Creeping Evil out to destroy science fiction is economics. S>Media books are just one of its weapons. S>-- Mike Resnick Agreed! I'm trying to start writing myself (it sure was easier when I was muttering "I could write better stuff than this crud" than applying fingers to keyboard) However _if_ I do get published and Paramount/Lucas offers me $ to do a Star Dreck/Wookie bookie. I'd probably take the money. Of course if I made enough to eat & pay the rent (my 2nd & 3rd favorite hobbies) I might let my principles take over & tell them to " put it where there is no chance of solar radation impacting upon the object in question." Tim Tulley [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 08:16:19 1995 Received: from ulkyvm.louisville.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA29452; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 08:16:19 -0400 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Received: from ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU by ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9251; Tue, 27 Jun 95 08:18:57 EDT Received: from ULKYVM (RAROEH01) by ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU (Mailer R2.10 ptf000) with BSMTP id 7345; Tue, 27 Jun 95 08:18:57 EDT Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 08:18:56 EDT From: Bob Roehm <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Sharecropping (was: Wookiebooks) In-Reply-To: note of 06/26/95 20:32 To: "SF & Fantasy Discussion Forum" <[log in to unmask]> To say that Duane, Foster, and David "made their initial niche in writing Trek stuff," as Gary Warren said, is not so. Both Duane and Foster had already published substantial novels (Tar-Aiym Krang, Bloodhype, etc. for Foster; Door into Fire for Duane).I am not familiar with Peter David's work, so Gary's point may be valid for him. For quite a while, Foster was king of the sf novelizers, much to the detriment to his career (artistically, if not financially). Duane seems to have found her true talent writing young adult fantasys. In both these authors' cases, their tie-in work was the low point of their writing lives. Bob Robert A. Roehm Asst., Office of Collection Mgmt., Ekstrom Library Univ of Louisville, Louisville KY 40292 [log in to unmask] - (502)852-8715 From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 08:18:57 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA38835; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 08:18:57 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 13:18:23 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Tue, 27 Jun 95 13:18:20 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: 2001 and Blade Runner Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 13:17:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 19 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 >I have to agree with Mr. Scott; to dismiss a film as simply "too long" is >extreme. However, there is a classic example; namely, that of Frank >Herbert's Dune - both too long in the book form, and entirely out of place in >a film setting. > >Lisa Adams But if the film had been about three times the length it was eventually hacked down to, maybe it would have made some kind of sense. In a vaguely analogous war/politics context, Kurosawa's epic film Kagemusha does a pretty good job . I think it lasts well over three hours, and even with subtitles it remains gripping and coherent. (I can't remember exactly offhand, though - one thing about films of this length is that you don't get to see them that often!) Dave From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 09:05:37 1995 Received: from gate.bmgmusic.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA83374; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 09:05:37 -0400 Received: from in1vines.bmgmusic.com by gate.bmgmusic.com with SMTP id AA02296 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for <[log in to unmask]>); Tue, 27 Jun 1995 08:05:07 -0500 Received: by IN1VINES.bmgmusic.com; Tue, 27 Jun 95 9:11:40 EDT Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 9:06:26 EDT Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Bladerunner sequel & Alternate History The _Bladerunner_ sequel mentioned may be a reference to a book coming out this fall (which also ties this post into the ongoing work-for-hire debate) called _Bladerunner 2: The Edge of Human_ by K.W. Jeter. I've read it, and it doesn't completely stink, but it's really just more iterations of the same characters going much the same things, but for no good reason this time. As to the objection to my Alternate History post: yes, you got me. There is the weird bastard sub-genre of Alternate Histories with Magic (Randall Garrett's Lord Darcy stories being the other major example), which obviously cannot be considered SF. Oops. That's the kind of thing people who are making categories try to ignore as much as possible, 'cause it mucks exerything up. But I don't think those examples dump the whole Alternate History field into Fantasy, do they? Andy Wheeler From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 09:12:28 1995 Received: from relay.ubss.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA47171; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 09:12:28 -0400 Received: from na.ubs.com by relay.ubss.com with SMTP id AA12967 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for <[log in to unmask]>); Tue, 27 Jun 1995 09:12:23 -0400 Received: from uniblab.uniblab (uniblab.ubs.com [161.239.30.101]) by na.ubs.com (8.6.4/8.6.4) with SMTP id JAA05469 for <[log in to unmask]>; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 09:12:25 -0400 Received: by uniblab.uniblab (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06078; Tue, 27 Jun 95 09:12:20 EDT Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 09:12:20 EDT From: [log in to unmask] (Marina Frants) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: written vs. films > > The rest isn't worth arguing about any further, but your statement that "a > lot of writers aren't going to get published because of their > sex/race/economic status and who they know, too" is, in a word, bullshit. > Every writer you have read, of any gender, race, or economic status, > had to buck the same odds when breaking into the field. The good ones > managed; the bad ones didn't. Precisely. I guess that's why I have trouble believing that media books really shut out new writers, or kill the midlist, or whatever. If my first novel ends up languishing in a desk drawer, I'll be pretty bummed, but I wouldn't dream of blaming on Wookiebooks any more than I'd dream of blaming it on my gender. Either I'm good enough, or I'm not. Marina Frants [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 09:21:42 1995 Received: from obelix.WHU-Koblenz.DE by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA12790; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 09:21:42 -0400 Received: from localhost (cmergel@localhost) by obelix.WHU-Koblenz.de (8.6.8.1/8.6.4) with SMTP id PAA27493 for <[log in to unmask]>; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 15:21:51 +0200 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: SF/Fantasy and magic In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jun 1995 07:47:02 EDT." <[log in to unmask]> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 15:21:48 +0200 From: Corinna Mergelsberg <[log in to unmask]> >[log in to unmask] wrote: >Question: Is the "Alternate History" story taking place in an alternate >history at a higher technology level than our own? if so, it is SF. If not, >assuming that it contains no magic, it is neither SF nor fantasy Can I construe this to mean that the/a (?) defining element of fantasy is magic? Granted, I guess there are very few stories of this sort (I want to avoid the term fantasy here) without magic (can somebody think of an example? I can't offhand), but is magic really the necessary ingredient? If I were to write a novel set in, say, another universe with a medie- val or renaissance technology level (as opposed to the higher level you use), BUT without magic of any kind, would this be fantasy? Does another term exist or would we have to coin one? Corinna -- Corinna Mergelsberg [log in to unmask] WWW: http://www.whu-koblenz.de/~cmergel ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Es hat der Abend seine Netze ausgespannt, und von den blauen Bergen steig ich nieder. Li-tai-pe From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 09:22:36 1995 Received: from gate.bmgmusic.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA12624; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 09:22:36 -0400 Received: from in1vines.bmgmusic.com by gate.bmgmusic.com with SMTP id AA10585 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for <[log in to unmask]>); Tue, 27 Jun 1995 08:21:42 -0500 Received: by IN1VINES.bmgmusic.com; Tue, 27 Jun 95 9:28:10 EDT Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 9:24:47 EDT Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: sex/race/class & who you know As someone working in publishing, I'll second Resnick's remarks: everyone I know or have heard of doesn't care at all who a writer is, only how well he/she/it/they write. It's a business, not a popularity contest. Andy Wheeler From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 09:26:28 1995 Received: from cunyvm.cuny.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA30801; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 09:26:28 -0400 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Received: from CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2092; Tue, 27 Jun 95 09:25:17 EDT Received: from WAYNEST1 (NJE origin DKUIPER@WAYNEST1) by CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0762; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 09:25:52 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 08:46:15 EDT From: Doug Kuiper <[log in to unmask]> Subject: SF v F To: [log in to unmask] In a recent post, Ed McKnight wrote: >... I disagree with those that view SF as a subcategory of fantasy, a >subtype that happens to make use of science and technology, and which, >when it fails to do so correctly becomes simply fantasy. Instead, I view >fantasy (in the strict sense) as the narrower category, making (often >spectacular) use of a limited repertoire of motifs drawn from mythology, >legend, and history in contrast to SF, which is free to introduce any new >element that is not in open violation of scientific law as currently >understood. Ummm, well, let's disagree agreeably about this. I wouldn't say that SF becomes fantasy when it "fails" to make use of science and technology correctly. I guess I imagine it as a continuum with Fairy Tales on one end and hard, scientifically sound SF on the other. However, even if the principle of a SF story is scientifically sound, but the actual hardware does not exist, it is (somewhat) fantastic in the truest sense of the word. Examples are endless. Some are more fantastic, some are less. I think that part of the reason that we are having a hard time agreeing on a clear dichotomy between F and SF is due to the area that overlaps on that continuum. Perhaps a new term *is* necessary to describe the group. I think it is more than convenience or ingnorance that drives people to file F and SF on the same shelves. The fields share many commonalities. I'll save that for later, though, after I've thought this through a bit more. As for a limited repetoire of motifs drawn from history, mythology, etc., I think one could argue that all literature has to draw from this limited pool of plots, motifs, etc. I have to paraphrase, but I believe Shakespeare wrote 'There is nothing new under the sun'?. -doug -dkuipe[log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 10:48:24 1995 Received: from tolten.puc.cl by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA89073; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:48:24 -0400 Received: from tronador.puc.cl by tolten.puc.cl with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #10) id m0sQbvs-000bpTC; Tue, 27 Jun 95 10:48 CST Received: by tronador.puc.cl (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA26440; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:47:36 -0500 From: [log in to unmask] (Topicos Especiales) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re:Women in Sci-Fi To: [log in to unmask] Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:47:35 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Internet Chile Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1232 Greetings: I think that it is true that in the 99% (relatively) of the cases, when an author put a female character like a protagonist, he (the author) is going to put a sexual encounter (or at least some kind of romance) in the story. And the problem is that is not true for a male protagonist, there are many stories where the hero is a man and he never think about sex or love. But somebody in this list said that "Susan Calvin was such a sterotypically frigid female scientist"because she never think about sex or love (I know, IMHO), but then whatever man in the sf literature that seems to have no sexual interest is a stereotype? Given that we are looking for female protagonist that not appear involved in affairs, it is imposible that we could say a name that can not be signaled like an stereotype (well, maybe if the character is so strange, but probably in this case the sex of it would be not a matter of interest)(IMHO, of course). Thanks. Rodrigo Juri [log in to unmask] PD: I have been problems with the access to my mail, I think it was for the very long digest that you are sending me. Someone that could know more about computers would say me if that is posible? And if it is so, what could be done? From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 10:51:51 1995 Received: from Kitten.mcs.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA31129; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:51:51 -0400 Received: from nsls1.nslsilus.org (nsls1.nslsilus.org [192.160.127.70]) by kitten.mcs.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA02459 for <[log in to unmask]>; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 09:51:49 -0500 Received: by nsls1.nslsilus.org (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.5) id <[log in to unmask]>; Tue, 27 Jun 95 09:51 CDT Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 09:51:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Roberta Johnson <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: 2001 makeup oscar To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 23 Jun 1995, D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple wrote: > > >This is a good point in general, but I specifically disagree with you about > >2001. The movie is slow-paced, often corny(especially in the part with the > >guys in ape suits who are supposed to be early humans and look more like > >mutated chimps), and in some ways behind its time. The only good parts are > >those involving HAL. > > > Let me get this right - the award-winning (it was, wasn't it?) makeup stuff > with the apes was terrible,>snip> Actually, I remember reading that the Oscar for best makeup that year went to Planet of the Apes (!!), and I can confirm that John Chambers won a special award for makeup on that movie, but 2001 won the Special Effects Oscar. Maybe they thought the proto-humans were real? At any rate, I agree, they were the best part of the movie. Roberta From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 11:19:48 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA87299; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 11:19:48 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA130166387; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 11:19:47 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 11:19:47 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF and Fantasy Fantasy of Sci-Fi...A Conn. Yankee in King Arthur's Court After reading twice, two movies and the stag show, I can't decide! From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 12:11:48 1995 Received: from Kitten.mcs.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA13232; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 12:11:48 -0400 Received: from nsls1.nslsilus.org (nsls1.nslsilus.org [192.160.127.70]) by kitten.mcs.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA04380 for <[log in to unmask]>; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 11:11:47 -0500 Received: by nsls1.nslsilus.org (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.5) id <[log in to unmask]>; Tue, 27 Jun 95 11:11 CDT Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 11:11:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Roberta Johnson <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Films/tv/written tie-ins and the field? To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 25 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > I don't think these books have done the field any service. They > certainly haven't helped new writers who refuse to work in someone > else's universe. > > -- Mike Resnick > I must add that as a librarian with a tiny budget for SF and Fantasy, it is very frustrating to have to spend those few dollars on the media tie-ins which no one will care about in two years or less. I won't buy the wookiebooks (love that descriptor) in cloth--the patrons just have to wait for paperbacks. Roberta From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 12:18:15 1995 Received: from Alice-Thurman.tenet.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA93937; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 12:18:15 -0400 Received: (from teriw@localhost) by Alice-Thurman.tenet.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA05005; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 11:18:13 -0500 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 11:18:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa J Warren <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: "Non-sexist language" - pointless wild goose chase. In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In various articles I've written on- and offline (mostly in my *disABILITY NEWS-letter*, :::brief plug:::), I *have* adapted for the past three years one of Ursula LeGuin's pronoun usages (from, I think, LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS)--that of using "s/he" in place of "he or she did blah-blah-blah." To me, "s/he" reads a heck of a lot better than unnecessarily placing "he and she" in a given sentence. In addition, since we're on Political Correctness, I don't use "physically challenged" and only sometimes use "mobility impaired" in my newsletter and other writing. "Disabled" and "handicapped" are okay for me, as long as no one calls me "crip" or "crippled." Just my two cents on the whole PC ordeal! Gary L. Warren On Mon, 26 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > I have to respond to Dave's opinion on the apparent silliness of > hypersensitivity to sexist language. > > I am also tired of the pervasiveness of political correctness. It's getting > so that no one listens to what you say and only to how you say it. > > However, I do agree that all language has its roots in patriarchy because > language was created under patriarchal regimes. It is, therefore, inherently > skewed toward the masculine. Such words as "history" and "seminal" would, of > course, have masculine undertones because those who created the language used > themselves -- and naturallly, their own masculinity -- as a point of > reference. > > This doesn't, however, mean that there was anything inherently evil in the > creator's intention. That's just the way it was. I doubt if anyone would > say that the urban black dialect has anything inherently evil in it, either. > It's the way that they use the language -- they've adapted white language > to their own needs. In this same way, American English differs from British > English. It's a language that comes from a particular point of reference. > > So I guess what I'm trying to say is that, although by necessity any > language is created from a certain point of view, there is nothing mean or > oppressive in that. That's just the way it is. > > So then, I would suppose that women's effort to create their own language is > the first step in this direction. The other thing that I would advise is for > all people to stop being hypersensitive to people's word choice and pay more > attention to the message. > > AllGrill > > From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 12:22:37 1995 Received: from Alice-Thurman.tenet.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA93913; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 12:22:37 -0400 Received: (from teriw@localhost) by Alice-Thurman.tenet.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA12767; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 11:22:34 -0500 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 11:22:33 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa J Warren <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Fatherland In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks for clearing up FATHERLAND (the book) for me as opposed to the HBO show, Ed. As I implied in my first message, the end of that movie seemed to be another brainless tribute to the Kennedy's regardless of any historical proof one way or another. I probably WILL get a paperback of FATHERLAND to see for myself. Appreciation galore! Gary L. Warren :D On Tue, 27 Jun 1995, Ed McKnight wrote: > Gary L. Warren wrote: > >One other example of an Alternate History was FATHERLAND (in which Hitler > >is still alive in the 1960's, Joe Kennedy, Sr. is president of the US and > >the US and Germany are at a stalemate from WWII). I saw the HBO movie > >adaptation and thought, frankly, it stunk [partly due to a > mischaracterization of Joseph Kennedy, whom historians have shown to have > been anti-Semitic himself] > > > >I can only hope the book was better researched than the HBO presentation. > > Indeed it was. Robert Harris was a correspondent for the TIMES of London > and the author of a book about the selling of the forged Hitler diaries. > FATHERLAND contains actual quotes from Joseph Kennedy Sr. regarding the > similarity of attitudes toward the Jews in Germany and the US. The point of > making Kennedy president (and Lindbergh the US ambassador to Berlin) was to > underscore the potential for detente between the US and Nazi Germany, a > point that was pretty much lost in the HBO movie. > > Ed McKnight - [log in to unmask] > > > From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 13:10:27 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA74078; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 13:10:27 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA22933; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 12:10:06 -0500 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 12:10:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950627120810.19973A-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In a word, yes. Or we can always bandy the term Science Fantasy around, another in the line of SF acronyms. Having dead guys talk to you is not necessarly a fantasy device. Having bad guys miss you all the time isn't either, that is a function of Hollywood, including John Wayne, etc. You could call the Force a fantasy device. Then again, you could call any use of psionic abilities a fantasy device. Not necessarily true. AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place On Mon, 26 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > Leaving aside the fact that all these computer-operated weapons keep > missing the good guys, and that the Force, such as it is, is a fantasy > device, consider the end of the third movie: poor Luke is going to > be a table for 4 wherever he goes for the rest of his life. You think > that's sf and not fantasy? > > -- Mike Resnick > From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 13:17:45 1995 Received: from palantiri.spb.su by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA15762; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 13:17:45 -0400 Received: from palnet.UUCP (uuneot@localhost) by bar.palantiri.spb.su (8.6.8/8.6.12) with UUCP id VAA07573 for [log in to unmask]; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 21:11:00 +0400 Received: from palantiri.spb.su by palantiri.spb.su (UUPC/extended 1.12b) with UUCP; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 21:15:14 EDT Received: by palantiri.spb.su (FIDO2UU 1.92b [OS2]); Tue, 27 Jun 1995 21:15:12 +0300 To: [log in to unmask] From: Serge Berezhnoy <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Alternate Histories and SF Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 21:15:12 +0300 Gary L. Warren <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > One other example of an Alternate History was FATHERLAND (in > which Hitler is still alive in the 1960's, Joe Kennedy, Sr. is > president of the US and the US and Germany are at a stalemate > from WWII). While I didn't read the book itself, I saw the HBO > movie adaptation and thought, frankly, it stunk. There was a > "pivotal scene" in the last 15 minutes (:::spoiler time!:::) in > which Kennedy, Sr. looks at several photographs of the > concentration camps and, therefore, refuses to meet with Hitler. Screenwriter's work indeed. There was a paragraph in the Harris' novel in wich Joseph Kennedy, Sr. anti-Semitic modes are mentioned. Good SF! Serge V. Berezhnoy St.Petersburg, Russia [log in to unmask] ... Welcome Here! (Hangman's oldest joke) --- GoldED 2.50.Beta5+ * Origin: Camelot-89. Voice call (812)-310-6007 (2:5030/207.2) From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 13:47:39 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA94849; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 13:47:39 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA25421; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 12:47:17 -0500 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 12:47:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Sharecropping (was: Wookiebooks) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950627124724.19973I-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Peter David is famous for his comics work, definitely. AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 13:48:37 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA38911; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 13:48:37 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA055385316; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 13:48:36 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 13:48:36 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Alternate Histories and SF Does anyone know of a good publication that will push horror, sci-fi or fantasy poetry? I know, the money's in the stories, but I've quite a few poems written, and very little time to write an actual story that resembles not a gigantic cliche from some netherworld dimension. Also, has anyone read the new book by Modesitt Jr? I think tis called the Order War. Thanks! Donna From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 13:51:25 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA82431; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 13:51:25 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA25764; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 12:51:03 -0500 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 12:51:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Sharecropping (was: Wookiebooks) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950627125019.19973J-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII So, how do they get comments by other writers on the back/dustjackets of all those books then? Violence? Money? Or is it the semantic distinction of commenting on the *book/work* and not the author? I can think of both cases... AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place On Tue, 27 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > Foster was a very popular sf writer -before- he did the Trektoon stuff. > > And never ask a writer to comment on the quality of other writers. We > don't do it. They might comment on -us- in return. > > -- Mike Resnick > From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 14:53:35 1995 Received: from bos1h.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA74061; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 14:53:35 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 14:53:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 14:53:30 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Pulp books series - good or bad? To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I'm not directing this at you, but at everyone who has commented on this subject: Until you actually work in this field, until you compare advances and royalty checks with your peers, until your agent tells you who is buying and who isn't, until you see sales reports from Bantam and Pocket on their Wookiebooks and Trekbooks, until you talk to talented newcomers and find out what kind of responses they are getting from editors, you haven't the knowledge or background to agree -or- disagree with me. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 15:00:31 1995 Received: from bos1h.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA92447; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 15:00:31 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 15:00:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 15:00:30 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF vs. Fantasy, Alternate History Division To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >>If they have no superior technology and they take place now or before, why should they be [SF]? << Depends whose definition of sf you accept. Malzberg's, for instance, states that "Science fiction is that branch of imaginative literature dealing with an alternate past, an altered present, or an imagined future." -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 15:03:21 1995 Received: from cunyvm.cuny.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA96696; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 15:03:21 -0400 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Received: from CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4697; Tue, 27 Jun 95 15:02:11 EDT Received: from WAYNEST1 (NJE origin DKUIPER@WAYNEST1) by CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9612; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 15:02:38 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 14:46:48 EDT From: Doug Kuiper <[log in to unmask]> Subject: SF v F To: [log in to unmask] lambor wrote: >In other words, I am wrong because lots of people disagree with me? Sorry, >I just don't think that way. I guess I don't see how you could be wrong. Not because I agree with you (I don't), but because you have presented an irrefutable hypothesis. It appears to be: "Whatever I say is SF is SF to me." Now, if I am wrong (which happens alot) and your hypothesis is "Whatever I say is SF is SF for everyone", then I would say you are wrong because I tend to disagree with some of your categorizations. I don't think that literature is physics. You can point to a book and say 'it is X', but that will never mean you are *right*. The thing that makes this debate interesting is that unlike, say, the force of gravity on Earth, it is debatable. You will never be able to prove that Agent of Byzantium is not SF *to me* by the force of your opinion, whereas you could prove to me what the terminal velocity of a rock dropped off of the Empire State Building is by repeatable experiments. I feel like we are trying to take a softly rolling stream, pick up a handful of water, point at it and say 'It's a creek, not a stream.' I don't understand why the distinction is important. It's all good. -doug [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 15:08:09 1995 Received: from bos1h.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA44482; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 15:08:09 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 15:08:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 15:08:04 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: titles... To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I've only allowed one title change in all my hundreds of stories and my 70+ sf books: I let Tor change YES, WE HAVE NO NIRVANAS to STALKING THE UNICORN after Beth Meacham, my editor, convinced me that no one under 35 would understand the former, and that the word "unicorn" in the title would mean an extra 15,000 sales. Seems to have worked. As for people misquoting my titles, makes no difference: first, it's more important that they read and enjoyed them, and second, its more important still that they remember the author's name. Furthermore, most people -do- remember titles. My award winners include hard-to-spell hard-to-remember titles like "Kirinyaga", "The Manamouki", "Seven Views of Olduvai Gorge", etc...yet enough people remembered them and spelled them properly to put them onto ballots. The book title of mine that I find most people forget isn't one of the more sophisticated or exotic ones, but rather the longest: WILL THE LAST PERSON TO LEAVE THE PLANET PLEASE SHUT OFF THE SUN? This is followed, in terms of forgetfulness, by THE BEST ROOTIN' TOOTIN' SHOOTIN' GUNSLINGER IN THE WHOLE DAMNED GALAXY. Short stuff they remember, and whenever I think of it, I try to keep my titles short. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 15:39:57 1995 Received: from knox.knox.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA17997; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 15:39:57 -0400 Received: by knox.knox.edu (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA110971988; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 14:39:48 -0500 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 14:39:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Matt Bogen <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Tie in books In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 27 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > I am obviously in a minority as a newbie, and as someone who will admit to > reading Trek tie in books, but I felt I had to say something. Even if Trek > spinoffs are head candy, they do get people to read. Unfortunately, I have found that when someone starts off reading books of this "quality", they rarely progress to better forms of literature. As a bookseller, I find that parents like to justify buying _Babysitter Club_ or _Goosebumps_ books for their kids by saying that "At least they're reading". Unfortunately, I have yet to meet someone who moves beyond that level of storytelling, moving from young adult books of that caliber to adult books by Danielle Steel and Stephen King. Entertaining, but vapid storytelling. > I know this doesn't address the stifling of teh 'midrange' that Mike Resnick > has complained of, but I haven't noticed a large drop in new authors in SF/F > at *my* bookstore.... I'm still buying them by teh dozen. I must agree with Mr. Resnick. I live in Galesburg, Illinois, a town of about 33,000 people with one bookstore and a small liberal arts college. The majority of our SF sales are Star Trek/Wars (both front- and backlist), with the biggies cleaning up the rest (Jordan, mostly; even old stalwarts like Brooks and Eddings are falling out of favor). It is very hard to sell anything of greater qulaity; books by Resnick, Bear, Benford, and the like collect dust. On a somewhat unrelated topic, may I offer _Galatea 2.2_ by Richard Powers as a qualified recommendation? It is not considered SF, but does deal (in part) with the attempt to construct an artificial intelligence capable of writing a Master's thesis as if written by a 22 year-old literature student. If you want to escape for a while, this book, although flawed in some ways, is quite a bit more entertaining than the Wars/Trek book of the month. (Also, this is a new book, i.e. hardcover, so you may want to request it of your library rather that spend $20.) Thank you for your time- Matt Bogen [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 16:17:14 1995 Received: from DEPAUW.EDU by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA87827; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 16:17:14 -0400 Received: from DEPAUW.EDU by DEPAUW.EDU (PMDF V4.3-10 #9248) id <[log in to unmask]>; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 15:16:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 15:16:21 -0500 (EST) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Re[2]: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" X-Vms-Cc: ICRONAY Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT This should really be under a heading like "Literary sf?" but this is the entry my finger landed on. This may be a point that few folks on the list are concerned with, but I guess we'll find if that's so once I get some responses. I am an academic, I teach sf in classrooms, and I co-edit a scholarly journal on sf. I pretty well fit the description of "librarians, researchers, and scholars working within the field of Science Fiction and Fantasy," that the List is said to be intended for. (It's in the List Description Notice.) I have to say that after reading what seems like hundreds of messages I can't recall very many that actually deal either with literary sf in the sense of sf-art, or with historical research. Basically, I have read a lot of chatter, and shot-from-the-lip opinions. I just want to get things straight. Is this a list for folks who are _studying_ sf, and consequently interested in hearing arguments supported by facts and thought-out theories, or is it fan chat list? Now, before the heat starts building up I want to be clear. I am not trying to stifle anybody or slam anybody. I know I have a delete key, and I know I can unsubscribe. But I am puzzled why it is that no sf list devoted to scholarly or artistic questions has managed to survive. The marketplace for sf and conditions faced by commercial sf writers is relevant and interesting for sf scholars, no doubt about it. But look at how much discussion there has been about mass market fiction, and how little about self-consciously artistic sf. As for the definitions, I would think people would get tired of trying to convince others of definitions they feel no compulsion to accept. People clearly ahve differing definitions. Institutions make ad hoc decisions. Then decisions change when critics or other influential people (like booklist managers) change their minds. Is appears that disagreeing about definitions is preventing people from actually talking about writing. I guess my question is: are there people lurking out there who would like to exchange messages about sf art, scholarship and research, but have felt pushed right off the screen by the chatter, or am I just barking up the wrong list? Istvan Csicsery-Ronay, Jr. From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 16:23:09 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA68321; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 16:23:09 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA010344589; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 16:23:09 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 16:23:09 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Fantasy and SF Replying to [log in to unmask] comment on [log in to unmask] statement: ""I would say that the basic difference is that in (good) SF, the improbable/impossible happening are (at least partially) supported by scientific explaination. Whereas in fantasy we must simply take everything on faith. Another way of saying this - in SF we put our faith in the science behind the event(s), in fantasy, the event(s) themselves."" Then: Based on the 'Fantasy takes it on faith' definition, I would agree that Heinlein's Stranger_in _a_Strange_Land is perhaps one of the most intelligent, thought provoking FANTASY novels I have ever read. Faith takes many forms, doesn't it? (If a book creates a type of faith, does that count too?) From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 17:22:31 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA07248; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 17:22:31 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA028348151; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 17:22:31 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 17:22:31 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re:Books to get hooked on I suspect this was Adams point. A brief question: would anyone out there have any suggestions as to other similarly light (lite?) fare? (I'm trying to encourage a friend who has [unbelievably] read only one complete novel in her lifetime -- _Restaurant at the End of the Universe_. She's presently working on _Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency_.) I'm at a loss for similar stuff beyond Adams that might keep her hooked. Suggestions anyone? **************** Anything by Terry Pratchet; and _I, Robot_ and _The Martian Chronicles_ are pretty easy reads. Perhaps you could try a collection of short stories? (My husband is really bad about reading *complete* novels also - but if he can put a book down for a couple of days and go back to it without having to start over he'll stick with it. Thus, I tend to suggest books that are either collections of short stories or organized like a colection of shorts...Pratchet is the exception because comedy tends to keep his attention. Perhaps the same will work for your friend.) At the risk of being tossed off this list, a non-science fiction author to suggest is Tony Hillerman (murder mysteries set on Native American Reservations in the southwest - well written, yet very fast and interesting reads). Luck! Adora [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 17:22:37 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA73563; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 17:22:37 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA028558156; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 17:22:36 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 17:22:36 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Everywoman (hey, I can't think of a single Everywoman. Can anyone come up with a woman who's role represents not just women, but the whole human race?). ***************** _The Search For Signs of Intellegent Life in the Universe_ A play with (apparently) several characters, but they're all played by one woman and, in the end, really represent the whole of humanity. If anyone would like to claim that this is *not* SF, I'd be curious to hear their reasons why (read: not a challenge, just pure intellectual questioning). Adora [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 17:26:57 1995 Received: from hisar.cc.boun.edu.tr by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA61779; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 17:26:57 -0400 Received: by hisar.cc.boun.edu.tr (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA15021; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 00:25:40 -0400 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 00:25:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Imagine More!!! <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Hello from Imagination! Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello! I am newcomer to your list. Wow what an e-mail traffic! :) I am the editor of Imagination E-Journal, a new non-profit e-journal on the marvellous world of Internet which is proposed by a group of students at Bogazici University (Turkey) and aimed to be managed by an international staff. I have seen an information about What If...? during an Internet Search and learned about this list from Eric A. Johnson and Colleen Stumbaush. Both personally and as an editor I am very interested in Science Fiction related topics. Moreover, we are planning to prepare a column for SF stories in Imagination E-Journal. SF is among the most important ways of expressing one's imagination and sharing it with other people. If anyone is interested just send me an e-mail and I shall send you more info. I am happy to join into your group. Looking forward for interesting discussions :) Best Regards, >##############################################################################> Ersin Beyret E-Mail : [log in to unmask] Editor, Imagination E-Journal Address: Bogazici University Bogazici University 80815 Bebek-Istanbul/TURKEY Istanbul/TURKEY Imagination, the skill to dream the different one... >##############################################################################> From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 17:55:11 1995 Received: from bos1h.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA33474; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 17:55:11 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 17:55:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 17:55:10 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: written vs. films To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT You continue to misunderstand the situation. If you are good enough, you can still be shut out of the market, not because of -your- gender, race, or economic situation, but because of the economics of the marketplace. If the media books have decreased the market for original books by 150 a year, you can very well be forced out of the market despite the quality of your writing. Again, I notice that no one who has to make a living writing sf has disagreed with me, yet they are the only ones with the proper background to understand and intelligently comment on the situation. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 17:56:16 1995 Received: from Alice-Thurman.tenet.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA78312; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 17:56:16 -0400 Received: (from teriw@localhost) by Alice-Thurman.tenet.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA13152; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 16:56:15 -0500 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 16:56:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa J Warren <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Sharecropping (was: Wookiebooks) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII If I was wrong about Duane, Foster and David's "initial niche" in TREK stuff, then I humbly apologize and will say little more. However, I'd still like to point out the EARLIEST Foster I read WERE his TREKtoon adaptations of 1973-4 (around the time the series was cancelled). And David, according to one of his own "But I Digress" columns in COMICS BUYER'S GUIDE, *started* his writing career as a gopher-type person at Marvel Comics (which may or may not be as bad as writing TREK-books--your mileage may vary!). Also, Duane a few months ago came out with a nice, easily swallowed (perhaps shallow) Spider-Man novel/adaptation. Gary L. Warren (who made HIS "initial niche" writing anti-cuss word letters in the late-but-not-forgotten THE LEGION OUTPOST fanzine--1973-5) ;D On Tue, 27 Jun 1995, Bob Roehm wrote: > > To say that Duane, Foster, and David "made their initial niche in writing Trek > stuff," as Gary Warren said, is not so. Both Duane and Foster had already > published substantial novels (Tar-Aiym Krang, Bloodhype, etc. for Foster; Door > into Fire for Duane).I am not familiar with Peter David's work, so Gary's > point may be valid for him. For quite a while, Foster was king of the sf > novelizers, much to the detriment to his career (artistically, if not > financially). Duane seems to have found her true talent writing young adult > fantasys. In both these authors' cases, their tie-in work was the low point of > their writing lives. > > Bob > > Robert A. Roehm > Asst., Office of Collection Mgmt., Ekstrom Library > Univ of Louisville, Louisville KY 40292 > [log in to unmask] - (502)852-8715 > > From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 18:30:32 1995 Received: from hisar.cc.boun.edu.tr by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA59696; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 18:30:32 -0400 Received: by hisar.cc.boun.edu.tr (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA15308; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 01:29:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 01:29:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Imagine More!!! <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Some definitions of Science Fiction In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi! Since, I am a new member I am sorry if I am about to duplicate anything or if I have misunderstood the topic but below is the definitions of Science Fiction made by various persons. I hope it makes sense: -------------------------------oOo------------------------------------- Francis E. Abernethy ... just as science fiction is the manifestation of a rather noble and Faustian desire to know infinity, so it is also a symptom of a neurotic tendency to escape conditions on this earth at this time rather than to try to improve them. Gerald Heard Science fiction in the hand of character-draughtsman can create a new contemporary tension-of-choice, new moral decisions, and so indicate how they may be faced or flunked. In its [science fiction's] aim it is bound, by its extrapolation of science and its use of dramatic plot, to view man and his machines and his environment as a three-fold whole, the machine being the hyphen. It also views man's psyche, man's physique and the entire life process as also a threefold interacting unit. Science fiction is the prophetic ... the apocalyptic litterature of our particular culminating epoch of crisis. Frank Herbert Science fiction represents the modern heresy and the cutting edge of speculative imagination as it grapples with Mysterious Time---linear or non-linear time. Our motto is _Nothing_Secret,_Nothing_Sacred_. Hugo Gernsback By "scientification,"... I mean the Jules Verne, H. G. Wells, and Edgar Allan Poe type of story---a charming romance intermingled with scientific fact and prosphetic vision. Isaac Asimov Modern science fiction is the only form of literature that consistently considers the nature of the changes that face us, the possible consequences, and the possible solutions. James Gunn In science fiction a fantastic event or development is considered rationally. John Boyd Science fiction is story-telling, usually imaginative as distinct from realistic fiction, which poses the effects of current or extrapolated scientific discoveries, or a single discovery, on the behavior of individuals of society. Mainstream fiction gives imaginative reality to probable events within a framework of the historical past or present; science fiction gives reality to possible events, usually in the future, extrapolated from present scientific knowledge or existing cultural and social trends. Both genres ordinarily observe the unities and adhere to a cause-and-effect schema. Ray Bradbury Science fiction is really sociological studies of the future, things that the writer believes are going to happen by putting two and two together. Damon Knight What we get from science fiction---what keeps us reading it, in spite of our doubts and occasional disgust---is not different from the thing that makes mainstream stories rewarding, but only expressed differently. We live on a minute island of known things. Our undiminished wonder at the mystery which surrounds us is what makes us human. In science fiction we can approach that mystery, not in small, everyday symbols, but in bigger ones of space and time. --------------------------------oOo------------------------------------- Best Regards, >##############################################################################> Ersin Beyret E-Mail : [log in to unmask] Editor, Imagination E-Journal Address: Bogazici University Bogazici University 80815 Bebek-Istanbul/TURKEY Istanbul/TURKEY Imagination, the skill to dream the different one... >##############################################################################> From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 20:18:38 1995 Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA87358; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 20:18:38 -0400 Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Tue, 27 Jun 95 19:18:10 -0500 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 19:18:09 -0500 (CDT) From: Daniel S Goodman <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Women in SSF who don' To: [log in to unmask] In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 24 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > Has anyone ever read a scinece fiction story where the protagnist is a female > and doesn't have a sexual encounter? This isn't a question of prejudice, but > curiosity. I've jsut written such a story, and thought of this while editing > it for submission. > Elizabeth Moon has had several novels published in which the female protagonist has no apparent interest in sex. Marion Zimmer Bradley's fantasy mag prefers female protagonists, and discourages anything which might be considered unsuitable for children. Patricia Wrede's female protagonists aren't sexless, but Those Scenes are very much off-stage. Dan Goodman [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 20:54:07 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA93373; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 20:54:07 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA191380847; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 20:54:07 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 20:54:07 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Tie in books I think Connie Willis and Dave Wingrove (along with a lot of others) are extremetly creative writers and story tellers. I also like James Axler's DEATH LAND Series. Trash. Sure but he tells a story and I escape. All it takes is a little "willing suspension of dis-belief" From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 20:58:52 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA21555; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 20:58:52 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA079030943; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 20:55:43 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 20:55:43 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: "Non-sexist language" - pointless wild goose chase. Try Toni Morrisons Nobel lecture on the Abuse of Language. Listen to it as well. the power or her voice matches the power of what she says. From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 21:16:33 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA05095; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 21:16:33 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA137942003; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 21:13:23 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 21:13:23 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Pulp books series - good or bad? I disagree. I'm a book seller. Right now part time. But I have worked in NYC as manager of a large book store. There is more and better Science fiction today than there was 30 years ago. I can remember being called by Harold Robbins editor and asked if I thought he could get $6.95 in stead of $5.95 for his new book. Robbins latest is retailing for over $20. Good writers should succeed but as with all life things just ain't just sometimes. I'm not a writer but that does not mean I'm not creative and don't have the creative drive. I wish I have the obsession and creativity to write. Instead I read and enjoy what is done. I've seen potential best sellers die in NYC because the publisher guessed wrong, the book went out of stock and two weeks later it was fogotten. I ran a "tight" best seller accounting in my store in NYC. I found that a run away best seller would sell 300 copies a week in my store. I also found that a title need sell but five (5) copies to make the top ten. Amazing. Granted money is the award writers get in the cruel cruel world. However, I think the other award is within themselves and with their co-writers and peers. Book publishing is somewhat caparcious and sometimes hard to understand and sometimes downright stupid. Unfortunate. But so? Today we got Pat Conroy's BEACH MUSIC which retails for $27.50. Outrageous! We got 600 copies of this book. Waldenbooks, three doors away from us in the mall also got the book and put it out at 25% off so we did also. Crazy? Market and greed and all that retail stuff may hurt the writers. But without the market nobody succeeds. What I read is my choice. What others read is there choice. But as long as I'm selling books, which I love and which I'm very good at I be there pushing the writers I like and the literature I like. My choice. My reality and I'm happy with it Thanks. From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 22:02:29 1995 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA47212; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 22:02:29 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA138594949; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 22:02:29 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 22:02:29 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: RE: written vs. films (fw... We agree. We agree and we're not even making a living off of science-fiction. Believe us, not a penny. It's the big name publishing houses and magazines that ultimately control what people are allowed to read. Sincerely, Dan McNeill Kevin Morton VALHALLA Science Fiction and Fantasy From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 22:51:09 1995 Received: from mail.crl.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA65480; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 22:51:09 -0400 Received: from crl8.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA13234 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for <[log in to unmask]>); Tue, 27 Jun 1995 19:49:41 -0700 Received: by crl8.crl.com id AA22886 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for [log in to unmask]); Tue, 27 Jun 1995 19:49:38 -0700 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 19:49:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Joe DeRouen <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Pulp books series - good or bad? In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 27 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > Until you actually work in this field, until you compare advances and > royalty checks with your peers, until your agent tells you who is buying > and who isn't, until you see sales reports from Bantam and Pocket > on their Wookiebooks and Trekbooks, until you talk to talented newcomers > and find out what kind of responses they are getting from editors, > you haven't the knowledge or background to agree -or- disagree with me. That brings up one point: If there's no one who can agree or disagree with you (or almost no one) why're you discussing it? I'd agreed with most of what you'd said on the subject. Pity that my responses are now to be considered irrelevant. Thanks, Joe DeRouen From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 22:59:07 1995 Received: from relay1.geis.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA94585; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 22:59:07 -0400 Received: by relay1.geis.com (1.37.109.11/15.6) id AA280968343; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 02:59:03 GMT From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 95 02:29:00 UTC To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Titles X-Genie-Id: 2359720 X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2 I learned some things early on about titles. My first novel was called WHAT ENTROPY MEANS TO ME. It got very good reviews and was a Nebula nominee, but lots of people had trouble remembering the title. I learned to use short, punchy titles, and not use words such as "entropy," which many people don't understand. I usually have my titles before I start writing or very soon thereafter. I've had one title changed by the publisher (DEATH IN FLORENCE, in hardcover, was changed in paperback to UTOPIA 3, because Playboy Press thought the original title was too literary). I sort of cringe when I hear my titles butchered, but there's no helping it. Gene Wolfe had THE CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH mangled as THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER, and eventually put out a book with that latter title. My Hugo and Nebula-winning novelette, "Schrodinger's Kitten" has been called "Schrodinger's Kitchen." Etc. Sometimes titles don't work the way you expect them to, because of factors you fail to anticipate. I wrote a non-SF disaster novel about a gang that loots a Louisiana town during a hurricane emergency; I called the book FELICIA (the name of the hurricane). The publisher put a picture of bending palm trees and the silhouette of a house with one light on upstairs on the cover. Coupled with the title, lots of people thought it was a romance novel. GAE From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 23:18:43 1995 Received: from bos1h.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA46780; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 23:18:43 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 23:18:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 23:18:42 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Sharecropping (was: Wookiebooks) To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Saying nice things for a dust jacket or an ad is a professional courtesy. I was referring to saying not-very-nice things. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 23:19:09 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA31699; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 23:19:09 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA103989549; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 23:19:09 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 23:19:09 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Some definitions of Scien... Since, I am a new member I am sorry if I am about to duplicate anything or if I have misunderstood the topic but below is the definitions of Science Fiction made by various persons. I hope it makes sense: James Gunn In science fiction a fantastic event or development is considered rationally. * * * I find this a very interesting definition. It becomes obvious to me as the debate goes on and on that no acceptable solution will be found to the SF/F thing (though people can certainly air their, and others', opinions). Perhaps part of this is because many works combine whatever criteria is chosen for a division system, making them hybrids. But I find the idea of a division (simply to create it, not for any practical use) using the above definition intriguing. A problem is that I'm not sure what the other side of the coin would be: "A fantastic event or development that is considered..." Normal? Mystically? Instinctively? NOT considered? Accepted? But horror, I believe, would definitely belong in this second catagory. So would Kafka. (OK, I don't even have a title for this catagory yet, but I have a vague idea.) Some modern "SF" might be too. So where would Tolkien-vein fantasy (I mean today's Fantasy Market) be placed? This is all quite vague. Might anyone have a better idea of what I'm talking about than I do? Sean D. From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 23:19:12 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA38874; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 23:19:12 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA291969551; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 23:19:11 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 23:19:11 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF v F >I have to paraphrase, but I believe Shakespeare wrote 'There is nothing new under the sun'?. That was Ecclesiastes, traditionally Solomon. But in line with what you're saying (and I don't agree with this), it has been said that all stories have already been used, by Shakespeare. Sean D. From [log in to unmask] Tue Jun 27 23:39:58 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA71385; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 23:39:58 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA175450798; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 23:39:58 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 23:39:58 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Books to get hooked on >A brief question: would anyone out there have any suggestions as to other similarly light (lite?) fare? (I'm trying to encourage a friend who has [unbelievably] read only one complete novel in her lifetime -- _Restaurant at the End of the Universe_. She's presently working on _Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency_.) I'm at a loss for similar stuff beyond Adams that might keep her hooked. Suggestions anyone? Well, there are light political satires like _Mr. Stupid Goes To Washington_ by Jamie Malanowski or _Night of the Avenging Blowfish_ by John Welter (I'm in the middle of it). Vonnegut may or may not be suitable (his _Cat's Cradle_ is a fast, wild read). Though not all light, some children's or young adult's are quite good, especially if you consider the time you have to spend on them. (I love to go to the library and grab a couple of paperbacks from the young adult's section. You would be surprized at the quality hidden there.) _The Magic Circle_ by Donna Jo Napoli is a captivating, short retelling of the Hansel and Gretel fairy tale. It's not perfect, but I recommend it highly. _The Giver_ by Lois Lowry and _The Hero and the Crown_ by Robin McKinley, both winners of the Newberry, are also good. I've found people more open to "children's" books. They're very unthreatening. They can also be great reads. Sean D. Oh, Dave Berry books are often funny, and they move very fast. You know, that's not really SF literature... From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 00:05:25 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA94572; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 00:05:25 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA144702325; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 00:05:25 -0400 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 00:05:25 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Vonnegut I have read two novels of his, _The Sirens of Titan_ and _Cat's Cradle_, and have a question for someone who has read him more widely. His style is troubling. Sometimes it seems his work is to some degree planned. Sometimes it seems that a highly imaginitive mind is sitting at a keyboard and making it up as it progresses. So, once again, the question is hard to phrase. Does the man know what he's doing? Is it planned out? Is this literature or fun writing that will make money? Is this style or a refusal to flesh out his work? I don't need someone to tell me if it is art or not so I don't have to think. I'm planning to read more of his work and get a better idea, but I would like to hear other opinions. So, if you would, pick the question that makes sense and doesn't offend you. Sean D. From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 01:08:48 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA93496; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 01:08:48 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA182643055; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 00:17:35 -0400 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 00:17:35 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Everywoman _The Search For Signs of Intellegent Life in the Universe_ A play with (apparently) several characters, but they're all played by one woman and, in the end, really represent the whole of humanity. Huh. Who wrote it? From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 01:52:40 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23353; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 01:52:40 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA08952; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 00:52:19 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 00:52:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Pulp books series - good or bad? In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950628004843.4481B-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII So, Mike, are you allowed to share this info with us? Not your personal income or anything, but profits made by original book X versus original series book Y. That would be interesting. Now, what is your opinion on young struggling writers trying to get published? I know a couple of them who have written books you would dismiss as creativity stifling, but is it a good thing for them to get published and noticed, and hence perhaps more work? Or will editors/publishers scorn anything else they do and pigeonhole them as such? Obviously if they need money, they don't have the luxury that an experienced writer like you has who has enough income and can say thanks but no thanks, or piss off I won't write that dreck, or whatever other phraseology you can think of. AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place On Tue, 27 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > I'm not directing this at you, but at everyone who has commented on > this subject: > > Until you actually work in this field, until you compare advances and > royalty checks with your peers, until your agent tells you who is buying > and who isn't, until you see sales reports from Bantam and Pocket > on their Wookiebooks and Trekbooks, until you talk to talented newcomers > and find out what kind of responses they are getting from editors, > you haven't the knowledge or background to agree -or- disagree with me. > > -- Mike Resnick > From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 02:22:57 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA66193; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 02:22:57 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA10071; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 01:22:35 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 01:23:04 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: RE: SF v. Fantasy In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950628011907.6969A-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 26 Jun 1995, Brian Attebery wrote: > Are genres really categories, or are they ways of reading and > writing? If the latter, it doesn't make sense to argue about whether > a particular story is SF or fantasy. Instead, a book like Gene > Wolfe's _Book of the New Sun_ can be approached by saying, "Well, it > functions like fantasy in these ways and like SF in those other > ways." > Genres are arbitrary designations for economic reasons, as far as I can see, and you are right, here. A story with a group of werewolf hunters using sophisticated technology not available know after a werewolf as a suspected killer ending up being transported to a medieval world where a war is happening and dumped in the middle of an espionage plot could have several 'genre' designations. Only real useful thing about them is they can make things quicker to find, but, then again, that is an economic reality. The library here is not even consistent, putting some of it in Young Adult, and some in Adult, and some even in 'different' genre subclassifications. From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 02:25:03 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA90809; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 02:25:03 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA10096; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 01:24:42 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 01:25:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: written vs. films In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950628012356.6969B-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > The Great Creeping Evil out to destroy science fiction is economics. > Media books are just one of its weapons. > > -- Mike Resnick > Yup, this is true for any variety of media, generally speaking. Richard From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 02:25:03 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA90809; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 02:25:03 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA10096; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 01:24:42 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 01:25:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: written vs. films In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950628012356.6969B-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > The Great Creeping Evil out to destroy science fiction is economics. > Media books are just one of its weapons. > > -- Mike Resnick > Yup, this is true for any variety of media, generally speaking. Richard From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 02:29:51 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA66299; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 02:29:51 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA10172; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 01:29:30 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 01:29:59 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: 2001 and Blade Runner In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950628012642.6969C-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 27 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > I have to agree with Mr. Scott; to dismiss a film as simply "too long" is > extreme. However, there is a classic example; namely, that of Frank > Herbert's Dune - both too long in the book form, and entirely out of place in > a film setting. > > Lisa, you'll get definite disagreement here. Dune was too short in book form, if you ask me. :) I loved the stuff. Same with the movie. It was fine in showing the first part of the book, then tried to stuff 75% of it into half an hour and that part ended up a horror. Should have been four movies, or a mini-series or tv series, perhaps. The book about the Making of the Movie Dune is quite good, too. Amusing anecdotes about importing large quantities of prophylactics, as well as DiLaurentis' struggles to get it to the screen, and the huge amounts of material they had to remove, etc. Might have been better off like the LOTR to make the first part, then fail to make any more. From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 02:29:51 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA66299; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 02:29:51 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA10172; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 01:29:30 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 01:29:59 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: 2001 and Blade Runner In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950628012642.6969C-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 27 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > I have to agree with Mr. Scott; to dismiss a film as simply "too long" is > extreme. However, there is a classic example; namely, that of Frank > Herbert's Dune - both too long in the book form, and entirely out of place in > a film setting. > > Lisa, you'll get definite disagreement here. Dune was too short in book form, if you ask me. :) I loved the stuff. Same with the movie. It was fine in showing the first part of the book, then tried to stuff 75% of it into half an hour and that part ended up a horror. Should have been four movies, or a mini-series or tv series, perhaps. The book about the Making of the Movie Dune is quite good, too. Amusing anecdotes about importing large quantities of prophylactics, as well as DiLaurentis' struggles to get it to the screen, and the huge amounts of material they had to remove, etc. Might have been better off like the LOTR to make the first part, then fail to make any more. From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 02:31:05 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23301; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 02:31:05 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA10190; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 01:30:44 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 01:31:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: 2001 In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950628013052.6969D-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, all movies will be flawed then, most likely. :-) As will all books. AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place On Tue, 27 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > >To dismiss a film as too long is also catering to attention spans that > are very short and Hollywood/movie theatre desires to hvae sub 2 hour > stuff so they can make more money, too. If it is too long and _boring_ > and padded that is different, but length is not a bad thing in and of itself. > > I am very sensitive to lengths of movies. I mean I find the majority too > long and boring. Many is the time a movie has been ruined because I can feel > my brain cells dying at the useless parts. > You can call this a short attention span, but I can't stand any > self-indulgent material which does not add to the movie in some way. > There were many such spots in 2001. I did not find watching those apes for > what felt like forever or the funny, waving, unending colors > thought-provoking; these parts were pointless and should have been removed. > They deaden the brain, making one less alert for the important parts. > Understand, I liked the movie, but that was in spite of its flaws and > Kubrick's addiction to imagery in preference to substance. > > Sean D. > From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 02:31:53 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA66074; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 02:31:53 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA10196; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 01:31:31 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 01:32:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Fantasy and SF In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950628013146.6969E-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII No technological basis for what parts? AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place On Tue, 27 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > In far-ahead SF, there is often no technological basis. The perfect examples > include "Star Wars" and "Buck Rogers in the 25th Century". > From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 02:32:51 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23334; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 02:32:51 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA10336; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 01:32:30 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 01:32:59 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: 2001 and Blade Runner In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950628013220.6969F-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The _first_ one is cheesy? And three foot high teddy bears and bandannas aren't cheesy _or_ Disneyish? AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place On Tue, 27 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > I don't understand how you can like a movie as boring as 2001, and, at the > other end of the scale, one as corny, Disneyish and action-packed as Star > Wars. I love the second two Star Warses, but the first one is way too cheesy > for me. > From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 02:35:09 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA87391; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 02:35:09 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA10385; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 01:34:47 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 01:35:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950628013402.6969G-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII SW is very possible, wrt a lot of SF. :-) Look at the interesting accomplishments in Doc Smith's Lensman books, with weaponry. On the planetary scale. AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place On Tue, 27 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > SF does not have to be realistic. Star Wars is some of the least-possible > SF. > From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 02:39:40 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA80503; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 02:39:40 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA10495; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 01:39:19 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 01:39:47 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Films In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950628013926.6969H-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII No Hubbard, please. How about The Dark Phoenix Saga? :-) AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place On Tue, 27 Jun 1995, Mr A.P. Sawyer wrote: > In the last mail Moonbeam said: > > > > > On Wed, 7 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > > > > > > > I propose yet another "Best Of" list for consideration: Which novel, novella > > > > or short story in the SF genre would you most like to see given a top-shelf, > > > > feature grade cinematic treatment? > > > > I would like to see Battlefield Earth done - though it might take a > > miniseries to do it well. > > > I can think of nothing more horrendous - apart from having to read the book > again. So I suspect that this is going to happen someday :-) > > -- > Andy Sawyer, > Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection > Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool > PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK > 0151-794-2733/2696 > [log in to unmask] > http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html > > "Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) > From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 02:46:05 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23490; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 02:46:05 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA10772; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 01:45:43 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 01:46:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: sex/race/class & who you know In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950628014440.6969I-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ok, then why do bad Star Trek books get written, and good original authors don't get published if this is true? Money, right? So this statement is very true for your first part of your second sentence, but not the first sentence or second part of the second sentence. AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place On Tue, 27 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > As someone working in publishing, I'll second Resnick's remarks: everyone I > know or have heard of doesn't care at all who a writer is, only how well > he/she/it/they write. It's a business, not a popularity contest. > > > Andy Wheeler > From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 04:55:29 1995 Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA38852; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 04:55:29 -0400 Received: from uxa.liv.ac.uk by mail.liv.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 28 Jun 1995 09:55:19 +0100 From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy (fwd) To: [log in to unmask] Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 09:55:17 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "[log in to unmask]" at Jun 27, 95 01:33:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2552 In the last mail [log in to unmask] said: > > What makes you think that Star Trek is fantasy? To me, Star Trek is the > quintessential SF. Why? The only argument against would be that it lacks > scientific bases, It seems to me that that would set it against a lot of other material published as science fiction! There is still much which is written with a view to scientific speculation, working out, in fictional forms, a possibility based on science as we know it ("hard" science fiction, although I'd include in this category fiction based on the historical, sociological, and psychological sciences - or "sciences", if you will). but in this day and age, only an idealistic purist would > apply that test to all works and call them fantasy if they do not pass. It's not a matter of passing tests but of how the imagery and structure of a story functions. > SF has come to mean, "Fiction taking place in the future or in a more advanced > world than that in which it is written." By whom? This is actually one of the narrowest definitions of SF. I think you are arguing in a circular logic, and taking your own preconceptions and turning them into generalisations. Exactly WHY is this the case? As such, Star Trek is SF. I repeat, exactly WHY? (Apart from the setting and the imagery). Because you say? Because thousands of Trek fans take ST as their baseline when they think about SF? (BTW, the British press is FULL of Star Trek imagery at the moment because John Redwood, the challenger to John Major who has just resigned as leader of the Conservative Party in an attempt to gain the electoral support of his MPs and defeat his critics, is caricatured as a Vulcan) But you have replied to a posting saying that an argument based on majorities is invalid. I think this argument is becoming sterile and taking up too much bandwidth. > As someone (I forget who) recently posted: texts may work as SF in some ways and Fantasy in another. Genres are not always exclusive: Horror for example is CALLED a genre but the effect of horror can be applied in any other (except, possibly the Barbara Cartland type of Romance)* *Well, it's pretty horrific reading Barbara Cartland, but I think my meaning is clear:-) -- Andy Sawyer, Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK 0151-794-2733/2696 [log in to unmask] http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html "Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 05:29:14 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA91078; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 05:29:14 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 10:28:58 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 95 10:28:54 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Poetry Date: Wed, 28 Jun 95 10:28:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 13 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Just a quick thing, reminded to me by the mention of The Anatomy of Wonder. >There are useful discussions of science fiction poetry in both Anatomy of >Wonder, 4th edition, edited by Neil Barron and Clute and Nichols Encyclope- >dia of Science Fiction. Why is it that I can't get this book? It's obviously available. Is it not available in the UK yet? I've had it on order for approximately a decade. No-one in the shops seems willing actually to tell me what the situation is. Am I just dealing with useless shops? I want to see it! Dave From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 05:29:14 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA91078; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 05:29:14 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 10:28:58 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 95 10:28:54 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Poetry Date: Wed, 28 Jun 95 10:28:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 13 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Just a quick thing, reminded to me by the mention of The Anatomy of Wonder. >There are useful discussions of science fiction poetry in both Anatomy of >Wonder, 4th edition, edited by Neil Barron and Clute and Nichols Encyclope- >dia of Science Fiction. Why is it that I can't get this book? It's obviously available. Is it not available in the UK yet? I've had it on order for approximately a decade. No-one in the shops seems willing actually to tell me what the situation is. Am I just dealing with useless shops? I want to see it! Dave From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 06:03:31 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA25401; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 06:03:31 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 11:02:54 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 95 11:02:52 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: Fwd: re: Lambor's definition of SF Date: Wed, 28 Jun 95 11:01:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 38 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Lambor: >In other words, I am wrong because lots of people disagree with me? Sorry, i >just don't think that way. > I don't think so. I think you're just wrong in ways that a lot of people have simply noticed. There's a James Blish short story called Surface Tension which involves no technology whatever. It's about (well, something like this - it's been a long time) a primitive bunch of ex-humans who have evolved and adapted to live within very small bodies of water. (And they can't get out - hence the title.) From the evidence of your arguments it appears that the primitive level of technology but the non-realistic setting would make it a fantasy. Then again, I believe that it's nominally set in the future, which would, by itself, suddenly turn it into SF in your view (you haven't made it obvious why SF would win out in this way, by default, but that seems to be the result implied by some of your statements). The problem here is that that is a distinction that simply doesn't interest many readers. I would think that most of us would class the thing as SF for more visceral reasons than the purely superficial and disposable one that the writer implies that it's our future. If it had started with the words "Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away" then you would apparently recategorise it as fantasy, although the story would not have altered in the slightest and the rest of us would presumably not have bothered. The argument that *I* have with your view is that any categorisation so entirely prone to the presence or absence of completely superficial features is just pointless. If it works for you, then that's fine for you - some views here, however, seem to be trying politely to point out that it doesn't, on the whole, do much for many others. It seems shallow and to achieve nothing. By all means carry on using it for your own purposes, but don't expect everyone else to feel enlightened by it and don't imply that you're being browbeaten when so many point out that it doesn't work for them. Dave From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 06:14:08 1995 Received: from plym.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA20398; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 06:14:08 -0400 Received: from cs_fs23.csd.plym.ac.uk (actually cs_fs23.cs.plymouth.ac.uk) by plymouth.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 28 Jun 1995 11:11:46 +0100 Received: from CS_FS23/SMTP_MAIL by cs_fs23.csd.plym.ac.uk (Mercury 1.20); 28 Jun 95 11:15:11 GMT+1 Received: from SMTP_MAIL by CS_FS23 (Mercury 1.20); 28 Jun 95 11:15:01 GMT+1 From: Ruth Ballam <[log in to unmask]> Organization: University of Plymouth To: [log in to unmask] Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 11:18:26 GMT Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy Reply-To: [log in to unmask] Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Mac (v2.1.2) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask] said "To me, Star Trek is the quintessential SF." Unfortunately that seems to be a common view. Trek is SF, SF is Trek. You ask someone if they like SF and they say "no, I don't like Trek" ! Trek may not be fantasy but it's not hard SF either. I'd call it soft SF with poor science (spot that technobabble) and little internal consistency. Ruth Ballam, Computing Service, University of Plymouth, England From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 06:24:40 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA20230; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 06:24:40 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 11:24:26 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 95 11:24:23 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: 2001 makeup oscar Date: Wed, 28 Jun 95 11:23:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 34 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 >> >This is a good point in general, but I specifically disagree with you about >> >2001. The movie is slow-paced, often corny(especially in the part with the >> >guys in ape suits who are supposed to be early humans and look more like >> >mutated chimps), and in some ways behind its time. The only good parts are >> >those involving HAL. >> >> >> Let me get this right - the award-winning (it was, wasn't it?) makeup stuff >> with the apes was terrible,>snip> > >Actually, I remember reading that the Oscar for best makeup that year >went to Planet of the Apes (!!), and I can confirm that John Chambers won >a special award for makeup on that movie, but 2001 won the Special >Effects Oscar. Maybe they thought the proto-humans were real? > >At any rate, I agree, they were the best part of the movie. Oops - bang. I think you're right. (There goes another one...) All the same my real point here is that without the "protohumans" the film could not possibly be about what it actually was about. It was quite adventurous and obviously not to everyone's taste for the film to dwell on them the way it did, but surely the message of all that is that we ARE those grunting, near-extinct beasts, having been helped out in some way by the monolith. HAL really is strictly optional in this respect. A bit of fun. Dave Dave From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 06:40:29 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA12573; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 06:40:29 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 11:40:09 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 95 11:40:07 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: The Importance of Non-sexist Language Date: Wed, 28 Jun 95 11:37:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 35 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 >On Mon, 26 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: >> I have to respond to Dave's opinion on the apparent silliness of >> hypersensitivity to sexist language. [snip, snip, snip] >> So then, I would suppose that women's effort to create their own language is >> the first step in this direction. The other thing that I would advise is >for >> all people to stop being hypersensitive to people's word choice and pay more >> attention to the message. >> AllGrill > >But "the medium IS the message." > >***************************************************************** >patricia monk (dr) [log in to unmask] > "just visiting this planet" >***************************************************************** To an extent that's certainly true. My objection, though, was initially to do with people confusing the two in such a way as to perceive opression as a product of language itself. A shovel or a rock can be the "medium" of a killing blow, but that doesn't mean that we should ban them. The uses to which language is put are to do with the things people want to do with it. Arguments based on the idea that "if there's no word for it, people can't think about it" are just wrong. We should be educating people (which is possible), not trying to censor the language (which is not). I wrote a long and detailed and, frankly, boring response to AllGrill's message, and then mailed it personally to save the list as a whole from being subjected to it. If anyone's interested then let me know. It's not at all SF, but it is a bit LIT. Dave From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 07:06:52 1995 Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA79751; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 07:06:52 -0400 Received: from uxa.liv.ac.uk by mail.liv.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:06:25 +0100 From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Re[2]: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner To: [log in to unmask] Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:06:23 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "[log in to unmask]" at Jun 27, 95 07:10:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1215 In the last mail [log in to unmask] said: > > > I guess my question is: are there people lurking out there who would like > to exchange messages about sf art, scholarship and research > > Istvan Csicsery-Ronay, Jr. > Yes there are - (but I think you knew I'd say that!) I think this list has several functions, but I'd like to think that the exchange of knowledge about the areas you mention is central to it. Of the lists I belong to, Ive had the best responses to general inquiries that I've put out in this one (and it's had the fewest instances of the "has anyone read - ?" type of inquiry. Perhaps we should throw some bait into the field. If you'll leak the next issue of SF STUDIES I'll leak FOUNDATION (issue 63 is, I gather being printed right now). And if you'll say what you thought about Virtual Futures 95 I'll throw in a report about the Time Machine Symposium next month. -- Andy Sawyer, Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK 0151-794-2733/2696 [log in to unmask] http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html "Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 07:07:51 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA79813; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 07:07:51 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:07:30 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 95 12:07:28 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: written vs. films (fwd from moderator) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 95 11:56:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 21 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Mike Resnick: >Again, I notice that no one who has to make a living writing sf has >disagreed with me, yet they are the only ones with the proper background >to understand and intelligently comment on the situation. > This is a specious point. I was nowhere near WWII, but I feel I know rather more about it now than most of the people who were fighting in it at the time did then. Or later, come to that. I wonder how many writers really do take a scholarly interest in the market around them. And in any case, it seems unfair to suggest that no-one else can produce a reasoned opinion. Presumably you'd expect others to take your points on board, and defer to your experience, but never repeat them to others because they aren't qualified through publication...? Personally I've lost track of what the argument is really about, anyway. Dave From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 08:16:13 1995 Received: from bos1h.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA66700; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 08:16:13 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 08:16:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 08:16:11 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Pulp books series - good or bad? To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >>If there's no one who can agree or disagree, why are you discussing it?<< Good point. I'll stop if everyone else stops. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 08:17:47 1995 Received: from bos1h.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA88581; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 08:17:47 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 08:17:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 08:17:45 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Titles To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Re: FELICIA George: Could be worse. Could be mistaken for a Bee-Line title. <g> -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 08:23:29 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA06748; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 08:23:29 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 13:23:02 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 95 13:23:00 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: Vonnegut Date: Wed, 28 Jun 95 13:22:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 19 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 > I have read two novels of his, _The Sirens of Titan_ and _Cat's Cradle_, >and have a question for someone who has read him more widely. > His style is troubling. Sometimes it seems his work is to some degree >planned. Sometimes it seems that a highly imaginitive mind is sitting at a >keyboard and making it up as it progresses. > So, once again, the question is hard to phrase. > Does the man know what he's doing? > Is it planned out? > Is this literature or fun writing that will make money? > Is this style or a refusal to flesh out his work? The last Vonnegut I read was Hocus Pocus about four or five years ago. It was still pretty new then, I believe. It's borderline SF, at best - really more of a mainstream thing - but in any case it's very clearly planned out. A very confident little job. I've always been prettty sure he knows what he's up to. Dave From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 08:23:47 1995 Received: from bos1g.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA77429; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 08:23:47 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 08:23:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 08:23:46 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Pulp books series - good or bad? To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT No, of course I'm not allowed to share info that was given to me in confidence with you. Is it a good thing for young writers to get published and noticed, even with sharecrop books? Well, that's a two-edged sword. It's good to get published, get paid, and get some experience. With most sharecrop books, it's better if they're not noticed. Once you start writing them, it's awfully easy to get labelled as a hack who can't do anything BUUT sharecrop books. Believe me, it's happened to a helluva lot more than one or two promising writers. There's no easy answer. Counting 1995, 8 of "my" discoveries from my anthologies have made the Campbell ballot, and one of them, my daughter, has won the award. Not surprisingly, she is the only one of the 8 to receive a lucrative sf book contract, though some of them -- especially Nick DiChario and Barbara Delaplace -- continue to produce award-quality stories almost every time out of the box. It was always tough to make a living as a writer; mediabooks have simply made it tougher. Less slots left for talented writers who won't sell out. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 08:49:48 1995 Received: from gw2.att.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA62969; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 08:49:48 -0400 Received: from hellas.nw.att.com by ig1.att.att.com id AA03335; Wed, 28 Jun 95 08:46:33 EDT Received: by hellas.nw.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA25036; Wed, 28 Jun 95 07:46:37 CDT Received: by hellas.nw.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA25032; Wed, 28 Jun 95 07:46:36 CDT Date: Wed, 28 Jun 95 07:46:36 CDT From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Everywoman > _The Search For Signs of Intellegent Life in the Universe_ > A play with (apparently) several characters, but they're all played by one > woman and, in the end, really represent the whole of humanity. > > Huh. Who wrote it? > I can't tell you who wrote it, but I can tell you that I have seen it live, and it is a wonderful show. Lily Tomlin did a marvelous job portraying all of the characters in the play, shifting roles constantly. I highly recommend it if it comes around your way. Joe Karpierz From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 09:04:21 1995 Received: from portal.dx.net by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA104166; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 09:04:21 -0400 Received: from heartbeat.org (heartbeat.org [199.190.113.2]) by portal.dx.net (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id JAA13436 for < [log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 09:09:00 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Received: from MHS by heartbeat.org with MHS id $T100228 ; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 08:55:54 EST Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 08:55:22 +0500 Subject: Vonnegut To: [log in to unmask] X-Wg-Gmid: -1300195958/420120 X-Wg-Thrid: 930583400 X-Wg-Rplto: -1300195958/420100 S> I have read two novels of his, _The Sirens of Titan_ and _Cat's Cradle_, S>and have a question for someone who has read him more widely. S> His style is troubling. Sometimes it seems his work is to some degree S>planned. Sometimes it seems that a highly imaginitive mind is sitting at a S>keyboard and making it up as it progresses. S> Does the man know what he's doing? My vote is yes. S> Is it planned out? exquisitly. S> Is this literature or fun writing that will make money? The Upstate returns arn't in on this yet - I don't like Vonnegut, but other wiser heads that mine say he's great. S> Is this style or a refusal to flesh out his work? Style - I used to think it was just bat writing till I tried to write that way my self once- much harder than it appears. S> I don't need someone to tell me if it is art or not so I don't have to S>think. If you can find a copy of Niven & Pournell's _Inferno_ there is a wonderful comment on Vonngut as Carpentier & company travle through Dis. Hope this helps. Tim Tulley [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 09:04:47 1995 Received: from portal.dx.net by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA103936; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 09:04:47 -0400 Received: from heartbeat.org (heartbeat.org [199.190.113.2]) by portal.dx.net (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id JAA13440 for < [log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 09:09:29 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Received: from MHS by heartbeat.org with MHS id $T100229 ; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 08:56:24 EST Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 08:55:26 +0500 Subject: Re: Everywoman To: [log in to unmask] X-Wg-Gmid: -1300195958/420121 X-Wg-Thrid: 1702955427 X-Wg-Rplto: -1300195958/420101 S>_The Search For Signs of Intellegent Life in the Universe_ S>A play with (apparently) several characters, but they're all played by one S>woman and, in the end, really represent the whole of humanity. S>Huh. Who wrote it? Lilly Tomlin <sp?> wrote & starred in it. From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 09:22:42 1995 Received: from relay.ubss.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA19453; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 09:22:42 -0400 Received: from ny.ubs.com (ns1.ny.ubs.com) by relay.ubss.com with SMTP id AA08392 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for <sf-lit%loc.gov@internet>); Wed, 28 Jun 1995 09:21:31 -0400 Received: from na.ubs.com (smtpmail) by ny.ubs.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06698; Wed, 28 Jun 95 09:21:12 EDT Received: from uniblab.uniblab (uniblab.ny.ubs.com [161.239.30.101]) by na.ubs.com (8.6.4/8.6.4) with SMTP id JAA02980 for <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 09:21:16 -0400 Received: by uniblab.uniblab (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09741; Wed, 28 Jun 95 09:21:09 EDT Date: Wed, 28 Jun 95 09:21:09 EDT From: [log in to unmask] (Marina Frants) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF/Fantasy and magic > Can I construe this to mean that the/a (?) defining element of fantasy > is magic? > Granted, I guess there are very few stories of this sort (I want to > avoid the term fantasy here) without magic (can somebody think of an > example? I can't offhand), but is magic really the necessary ingredient? Magic-less fantasies do exist, though they're few and far between. The ones I think of immediately are _Swordspoint_ by Ellen Kushner and _The Lions of Al-Rassan_ by Guy Gavriel Kay. Robin McKinley's _The Outlaws of Sherwood_ was marketed as fantasy, but I'm not sure if it really is. Felt more like a historical adventure novel to me. Marina Frants [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 10:20:04 1995 Received: from gilbert.ucc.hull.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA41673; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 10:20:04 -0400 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Received: from humus.ucc.hull.ac.uk (actually host adelphi-le0.ucc.hull.ac.uk) by gilbert.ucc.hull.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 28 Jun 1995 15:19:38 +0100 Received: from humus.computer-centre.hull.ac.uk by humus.computer-centre.hull.ac.uk id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 15:19:34 +0100 Subject: literary sf? To: [log in to unmask] Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 15:19:32 +0100 (BST) From: Andy Butler <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "[log in to unmask]" at Jun 27, 95 07:10:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 5479 Sender: [log in to unmask] Hi Istvan, I've found that when any group of sf / science fiction /sci-fi fans / readers / critics gather together, there's an initial period of argumentation about terminology. People who say "sci-fi" are jumped upon. Speculative v. science, fiction v. fantasy is argued. And then the definition. This is a difficult stage to get past. (An example from the real rather than the virtual: the Hull SF Group is planning to have a meeting on Real Fantasy rather than Tolkien [we've talked about Tolkien before] and we keep on saying how we won't mention Tolkien because it isn't Real Fantasy. Bugger, we've just mentioned Tolkien. What is Real Fantasy? Anything Tolkien and Tolkien clones. Damn, mentioned again. [Actually I have nothing against Tolkien]) Of course discussion groups have new members all the time, who all have their version of the True Definition of SF. And the First SF Novel. And so the discussion goes on. Some discussion groups (not just devoted to sf) then decide to have everyone read the same book or story. People argue which one. A call for nominations goes out. People argue about which choice to read. A decision is taken - then silence. I think the medium is to blame, although I've had many fruitful one-to-one discussions (for example with your own good self). So what "self-consciously artistic sf" do you want to discuss? How about Jeff Noon, whom we've talked about briefly before? I think that Vurt is one of the best new novels I've read in the last year or so. It's a cyberpunk-flavoured thriller, set very firmly in south Central Manchester. It's very poetic, with recurring images of rainbows, particularly cast by shards of broken glass, and I think that you really care for Scribble's plight and the fate of his sister. But there are other views. Gwyneth told us that she didn't feel happy with the protagonist's character, and someone I lent the book to felt that he was a bit of a wimp. Does the book stand or fall on whether you sympathise with Scribble or not? I know he's not perfect, and I feel that he is a little self-centred in his desires for his sister, but I think the novel works because of this. The main characters are the Stash Riders, who take hallucinogenic Vurt feathers to obtain an experience which is part way between a drug trip and a computer game. After taking a feather called Curious Yellow within a feather called English Voodoo, Desdemona has disappeared, and in her place as an exchange, there is the feather growing Thing-From-Outer-Space. Scribble, her brother and lover and the narrator of most of the novel, is determined to get her back. When he eventually finds her, he remains and she returns home whilst he looks likely to become the controller of Vurt. His narration alternates with the hints, tips, and evasions of Game Cat, which reads like a column from a computer games magazine. This is a descent to the underworld story, in particular the Orpheus myth. Orpheus' wife Eurydike was bitten by a snake and died. Orpheus, a champion musician, then entered the underworld and won her back. And then, according to which version is being read, they left together or he broke the rules by looking back and lost her again. Sometime later he is dismembered, and his head floated down stream, mourning and prophesying. But this retelling resists the expectations of those who recognize the myth. It is modernised: Scribble is a musician, but is a dj rather than a lyre player. Scribble is the one who gets bitten by the snake, whilst in a Vurt hallucination. And finally, when he actually locates Desdemona, he releases her and stays behind himself. "'I don't belong there, sister,'" he tells her of the real world, "'This is my place, this is what I am'" [V 358]. Of course, within the logic of the novel, he has to stop behind. Desdemona had been swapped for The-Thing-From-Outer-Space, who is now dead. Instead Scribble swaps himself, and stays behind to write his story, and perhaps even become the controller of Vurt. Since I've spoken to you last, I've read Pollen, the sequel to Vurt. The viewpoint shifts: whereas before the story was of users of Vurt feathers, afraid of Vurtcops and Shadowcops, here the main protagonist is a Shadowcop, or at least a cop, Sibyl Jones, who is investigating a murder of a cab driver. A character named Persephone has come through to reality from the Vurt, as the pollen count rises and people are suffering from hay fever. (Noon is not [aaahhhhcccchhhhhhhoooooooo] quite convincing with this, and I don't think he ever really describes the experience). It's less poetic than Vurt, and more concerned with reality than the vurt - whereas Vurt is a harrowing of hell, a visit to the underworld, for most of Pollen hell is harrowing Earth. There's a mother-daughter relationship, and a mother-son relationship, which with the brother-sister relationship in Vurt, suggests that Noon is interested in writing about the family (his short story in GQ magazine is about a family). I could go on - the eventual visit to hell is amazing, and it is truly harrowed - but let's have your comments on what you find literary about Noon. Cheers Andy Butler Joint co-ordinator Academic Fantastic Fiction Network English Department University of Hull Hull UK [log in to unmask] "We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?" From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 10:30:07 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA59076; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 10:30:07 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 15:29:52 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 95 15:29:50 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy Date: Wed, 28 Jun 95 15:18:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 20 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Very true. And besides, there can be an important difference between realism and "possibility". Neither automatically implies the other. Dave >SW is very possible, wrt a lot of SF. :-) Look at the interesting >accomplishments in Doc Smith's Lensman books, with weaponry. On the >planetary scale. > >AussieVamp >Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) >Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. >--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place > >On Tue, 27 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > >> SF does not have to be realistic. Star Wars is some of the least-possible >> SF. From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 11:00:11 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA21706; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 11:00:11 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA152831611; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 11:00:11 -0400 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 11:00:11 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Bab5 Novels Hi, Richard. You said: >>Brenda, you mentioned there are three B5 novels. Are all three out now? Melissa and I were talking about this yesterday, and she has the first two. If there are three, we need to keep a lookout! :)<< Actually, I don't know if #3 is out yet. I know #1 and #2 are. I said all three because 1) I intend to buy it and 2) it's probably going to be the last B5 novel, barring JMS writing the story of the origin of the Babylon Project like he keeps threatening to. ;) ===== Brenda Daverin [log in to unmask] Nibelung Code: N48 l+ a(-) f- n- e d+ m+ b g(-) v u+ w+ From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 11:52:51 1995 Received: from raven.benedictine.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA80983; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 11:52:51 -0400 Received: from gnicholas.benedictine.edu by raven.benedictine.edu with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA12175; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 10:57:35 -0500 Message-Id: <v01510100ac172afe424c@[198.248.38.28]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 10:55:00 -0500 To: [log in to unmask] From: [log in to unmask] (George Nicholas) Subject: Ancient Fantasy / Lucian's Metamorphoses The posters who have identified the author of _The Metamorphoses_ as Ovid are correct. The original poster, who identified Lucius Apuleius' _The Golden Ass_ as _The Metamorphoses_, is also correct. These are alternate titles for the same work. Now for God's sake, let's don't drag Kafka into this. George E. Nicholas [log in to unmask] English Department (913)367-5340 xt. 2572 Benedictine College Atchison KS 66002 From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 12:01:41 1995 Received: from bos1h.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA43915; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:01:41 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:01:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:01:40 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: sex/race/class & who you know To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Don't ask a question, and then answer it incorrectly. You ask why bad Star Trek books get written and sold. The answer is because there's a huge and undiscriminating market for them. There is -not- a huge market, discriminating or otherwise, for well-written, mature science fiction. Never has been, probably never will be. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 12:05:43 1995 Received: from bos1h.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA77633; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:05:43 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:05:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:05:42 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: written vs. films (fwd from moderator) To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Before we get on to sf, what makes you think you understand war more than a GI who has faced enemy fire, or a wife who has lost her husband on the battlefield? There's a difference between the classroom/library and the trenches, and I suggest there's also a difference between talking sf and living it. However, since you obviously don't agree, you make the pronouncements and I'll listen and take notes. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 12:30:27 1995 Received: from grim.kvatro.no by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA33701; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:30:27 -0400 Received: from odin.kvatro.no by grim.kvatro.no with SMTP id AA06863 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for <[log in to unmask]>); Wed, 28 Jun 1995 18:29:59 +0200 X400-Received: by mta odin in /PRMD=notis/ADMD=TELEMAX/C=NO/; Relayed; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 18:28:33 +0200 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 18:28:33 +0200 X400-Originator: [log in to unmask] X400-Recipients: [log in to unmask] X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=notis/ADMD=TELEMAX/C=NO/;58929 95/06/28 18:28] Content-Identifier: 58929 95/06/28 From: "Kjell M. Egerdal" <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <"58929.95/06/28.18:28*/G=Kjell/S=Egerdal/PRMD=notis/ADMD=TELEMAX/C=NO/"@MHS> To: [log in to unmask] In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: 19th Cent. SF > [log in to unmask] said: > > I am presently in the process of editing a collection of pre-twentieth > century SF to be used in high school classes. I will also be creating > learning activities to go with them. I have a list of 13 titles > presently (Wells, Hawthorne, Poe, Bierce, Voltaire's Micromegas, E.T. A > Hoffman, Melville, Twain). > > Any suggestions re: other authors, titles. THANKS! > The following two books contains SF from the 19th century: Book 1: ------- Anthology edited by Isaac Asimov, Martin H. Greenberg and Charles G. Waugh: "Isaac Asimov Presents the Best Science Fiction of the 19th Century" publised by Knightsbridge Publishing Company, New York, 1991. ISBN 1-56129-086-6 (originally published by Beaufort Books, Inc. in 1981) (published in Canada by Nelson, Foster and Scott Ltd. in 1981) The book contains the following stories: E.T.A. Hoffman: The Sandman (1817) (translated from the German by J. T. Bealby) Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley: The Mortal Immortal (1834) Edgar Allan Poe: A Descent into the Maelstrom (1841) Nathaniel Hawthorne: Rappaccini's Daughter (1844) Edward Page Mitchell: The Clock That Went Backward (1881) Robert Duncan Milne: Into the Sun (1882) Frank R. Stockton: A Tale of Negative Gravity (1884) Guy de Maupassant: The Horla (1887) J.-H. Rosny a^in'e: The Shapes (1887) (translated from the French by Damon Knight) Edward Bellamy: To Whom This May Come (1888) Sir Arthur Conan Doyle: The Great Keinplatz Experiment (1894) H. G. Wells: In the Abyss (1896) Grant Allen: The Thames Valley Catastrophe (1897) C. J. Cutcliffe Hyne: The Lizard (1898) Jack London: A Thousand Deaths (1899) Book 2: ------- C. I. Defontenay: Star (Psi Cassiopeia) published by DAW Books, Inc. 1975 Originally published in 1854 by Ledoyen, Paris, France, under the title: Star ou Psi de Cassiop'ee: Histoire Merveilleuse de l'un des Mondes de l'Espace Other 19th century SF books/stories are mentioned in the preface to each story in book 1 (all mentioned as SF unless otherwise noted): Mary Shelley: Frankenstein: or The Modern Prometheus (1818) (novel) Mary Shelley: The Last Man (1826) (novel) Mary Shelley: Transformation (1831) (fantasy short story) Edgar Allan Poe: The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket (1837) (short novel) Harold Beaver: The Science Fiction of Edgar Allan Poe (1976) Nathaniel Hawthorne: Twice-Told Tales (1837) (collection) Nathaniel Hawthorne: Mosses from an Old Manse (1846) (collection) Edward Page Mitchell: The Crystal Man (1973) Robert Duncan Milne: Into the Sun and Other Stories (collected by Sam Moskowitz, 1980) Frank R. Stockton: The Great War Syndicate (1889) (novel) Frank R. Stockton: The Vizier of the Two-Horned Alexander (1889) (novel) Frank R. Stockton: The Adventures of Captain Horn (1895) (novel) Frank R. Stockton: The Great Stone of Sardis (1898) (novel) Frank R. Stockton: The Science Fiction of Frank R. Stockton (1976) (coll) Edward Bellamy: Looking Backward, 2000-1887 (1888) (novel) Edward Bellamy: Mrs. Ludlington's Sister (1884) (novel) H. G. Wells: The Time Machine (1895) (novel) H. G. Wells: The Island of Dr. Moreau (1896) (novel) H. G. Wells: The Invisible Man (1897) (novel) H. G. Wells: The War of the Worlds (1898) (novel) H. G. Wells: When the Sleeper Wakes (1899) (novel) H. G. Wells: Thirty Strange Stories (1897) (collection) H. G. Wells: Twenty Eight Science Fiction Stories (1952) (collection) Grant Allen: Strange Stories (1884) (SF and fantasy collection) Grant Allen: Twelve Tales (1899) (SF and fantasy collection) C. J. Cutcliffe Hyne: The Adventures of a Solicitor (1898) (collection) C. J. Cutcliffe Hyne: Man's Understanding (1933) (collection) Kjell. Kjell M. Egerdal Internet: [log in to unmask] X.400 : S=egerdal;P=notis;A=telemax;C=no; From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 13:23:15 1995 Received: from ux1.isu.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA57261; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 13:23:15 -0400 Received: from LCS.ISU.EDU (fs.isu.edu) by ux1.isu.edu with SMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA093490109; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 11:21:49 -0600 Received: from LCS/MAILQUEUE by LCS.ISU.EDU (Mercury 1.13); Wed, 28 Jun 95 11:30:36 -0600 Received: from MAILQUEUE by LCS (Mercury 1.13); Wed, 28 Jun 95 11:30:19 -0600 From: "Brian Attebery" <[log in to unmask]> Organization: Idaho State University To: [log in to unmask] Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 11:30:19 MST Subject: every(wo)man Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> I've been intrigued by the question in an earlier post (which I didn't save, so I can't quote or cite author) about the nonexistence of everywoman characters. It seems to me that one thing feminist criticism has done is to take apart some of the assumptions about such concepts as everyman. I suspect that any character you could propose as a potential everyman, including the Medieval guy of that name, is actually an every-Man--a character that speaks so strongly to the experience of males (usually of a particular social group) that those same male readers conclude that the character must be universal. Granted, some male characters are more Every than others. Melville's Ishmael, for instance, works for some women readers. Jesus, Gilgamesh, and the Buddha have a pretty broad following among them. In science fiction, characters tend to invite all-purpose identification by having no character to speak of, like the heroes of fairy tales. I can think of some women characters that because of the plots they act in do stand for humanity in general. Maybe that's as good a definition of Everyperson as I can think of. Examples: Lilith Iyapo in Butler's _Dawn_ (although not in the following books), Joanna Russ's multiple J's in _The Female Man_, Orual in C. S. Lewis's _Till We Have Faces_. Maybe Cordwainer Smith's D'Joan. Whew, it's getting hard. Sheri Tepper's Beauty? Le Guin's Odo, in "The Day Before the Revolution"? I'm stuck. Anyone else have suggestions? From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 13:51:58 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA39668; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 13:51:58 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA223441713; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 13:48:33 -0400 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 13:48:33 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Lambor's definition > I think you're just wrong in ways that a lot of people have simply noticed. Nobody's definition is "wrong." (But some are odd.) Our definitions are not going to agree with what is called SF by the market because the stuff that is called SF is so broad, and even contradictory. Sean D. From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 13:54:58 1995 Received: from panix.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA07103; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 13:54:58 -0400 Received: (from hlavaty@localhost) by panix.com (8.6.12/8.6.12+PanixU1.1) id NAA23967; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 13:54:45 -0400 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 13:54:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Arthur Hlavaty <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Everywoman In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 28 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > S>_The Search For Signs of Intellegent Life in the Universe_ > S>A play with (apparently) several characters, but they're all played > by one > S>woman and, in the end, really represent the whole of humanity. > > S>Huh. Who wrote it? > > Lilly Tomlin <sp?> wrote & starred in it. > > Actually, it was written by Jane Wagner, who I believe is Lily Tomlin's companion. From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 14:58:31 1995 Received: from Kitten.mcs.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA29674; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 14:58:31 -0400 Received: from nsls1.nslsilus.org (nsls1.nslsilus.org [192.160.127.70]) by kitten.mcs.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA21849 for <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 13:58:31 -0500 Received: by nsls1.nslsilus.org (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.5) id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 95 13:58 CDT Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 13:58:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Roberta Johnson <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Nothing new under the sun... To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII snip> > As for a limited repetoire of motifs drawn from history, mythology, etc., I > think one could argue that all literature has to draw from this limited pool > of plots, motifs, etc. I have to paraphrase, but I believe Shakespeare wrote > 'There is nothing new under the sun'?. > > -doug > [log in to unmask] > I'm listening and learning to the complex SF/F debate, so won't comment on that. However, I believe that Ecclesiastes said "There is nothing new under the sun" Roberta From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 15:16:48 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA29626; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 15:16:48 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA17547; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 14:16:26 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 14:16:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: sex/race/class & who you know In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950628140945.4861D-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ok, well I was just trying to point out that someone from the publishing industry said that only stuff with talent gets published. In the case here, or lots of other books, not necessarily true, right? As you have said, it is a money issue. As to writing being a popularity contest, sometimes that will apply. Mike, you said someone offered you the chance to right some ST/SW books. Less likely to happen for a newcomer, isn't it? i.e. you are a 'name' writer whose name on a book will sell more, perhaps. You have said that you think decent writers shouldn't do this stuff. Do you think it would take noticeably less time to write one? The other question is if you have proven writers (disregarding the taking money from young talent issue for second) writing these books, will that improve the overall quality of the enterprise from a writing viewpoint, and is that or good/bad thing? I know you think they are a bad thing, period. Another issue that is slightly related to this I guess is a series of novels. If writer X writes a book that does well, then Publisher Y says more, then they write several more of them, does that contribute to less opportunity for new writers? AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place On Wed, 28 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > Don't ask a question, and then answer it incorrectly. > > You ask why bad Star Trek books get written and sold. The answer is > because there's a huge and undiscriminating market for them. > > There is -not- a huge market, discriminating or otherwise, for > well-written, mature science fiction. Never has been, probably > never will be. > > -- Mike Resnick > From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 16:01:10 1995 Received: from mail.jal.cc.il.us by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA87308; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 16:01:10 -0400 Received: from PORT20.AIXDIALIN.SIU.EDU (PORT20.AIXDIALIN.SIU.EDU [131.230.253.20]) by mail.jal.cc.il.us (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA07267 for <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 15:01:18 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 15:01:18 -0500 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: [log in to unmask] X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: [log in to unmask] From: [log in to unmask] (Ed McKnight) Subject: Re: Vonnegut Sean D. wrote: > I have read two novels of his, _The Sirens of Titan_ and _Cat's Cradle_, >and have a question for someone who has read him more widely. > His style is troubling. Sometimes it seems his work is to some degree >planned. Sometimes it seems that a highly imaginitive mind is sitting at a >keyboard and making it up as it progresses. > So, once again, the question is hard to phrase. > Does the man know what he's doing? > Is it planned out? > Is this literature or fun writing that will make money? > Is this style or a refusal to flesh out his work? > I don't need someone to tell me if it is art or not so I don't have to >think. I'm planning to read more of his work and get a better idea, but I >would like to hear other opinions. So, if you would, pick the question that >makes sense and doesn't offend you. > >Sean D. > Vonnegut is a very great, very funny, very dark and very life-affirming writer whose works are planned in great detail. The non-linear nature of some of his narratives sometimes gives one the impression that he is rambling, going in no particular direction; but the fact that these non-linear narratives finally fit together indicates careful planning on Vonnegut's part. As to his terse style, I would say that any further fleshing out of his characters would often make their ultimate fates too painful to bear. Other SF-related works by Vonnegut are Player Piano (his first, and perhaps most traditional, novel) and Galapagos. If you got something out of Cat's Cradle and are open to deep, dark, humorous literature that is not science fiction or fantasy read Mother Night, written about the same time as Cat's Cradle. Ed McKnight - [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 18:14:28 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA49924; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 18:14:28 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA29260; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 17:14:05 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 17:14:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Pulp books series - good or bad? In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950628171140.7010E-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hmm, genetic transmission of writing talents eh, Mike? Nifty. That's cool if you can get people published. Ok, seeing perhaps you didn't quite get it, or I wasn't clear enough. Are there any public sources for sales figures, at all, or is all of it in-house except when they want to advertise/publicise such as book blah has sold 300,000 etc. I know there are Best-Seller lists, but I suspect these are about as accurate or relevant in a lot of cases as music charts. Some will be better than others. Interesting thing was that I saw a Kim Stanley Robinson book in a local supermarket. Things like that you don't often find on supermarket book racks, unlike star trek books. A definite surprise. AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 18:17:11 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA92002; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 18:17:11 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA29372; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 17:16:48 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 17:17:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Pulp books series - good or bad? In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950628171555.7010F-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Another interesting thing if your daughter won an award with a famous in the field father, would that make it easier, i.e. your name recognition, like for sons/daughters of actors? Notwithstanding the 'having to live up to the ancestor' problem. AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 18:28:10 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA26967; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 18:28:10 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA29869; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 17:27:46 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 17:28:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: every(wo)man In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950628172606.7010J-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It is definitely hard trying to think of any, here. How about the protagonist in Donaldson's _Mordant's Need_? A fairly average sort, whatever you want to classify the book as. However, lots of the main characters in SF are remarkable in one way or another, or 'exceptional' even. Perhaps if there are less female characters, the ones you find/can think of are more likely to be exceptional? AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 19:03:59 1995 Received: from mailhost.pipex.net by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA86904; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 19:03:59 -0400 Received: from ns.cityscape.co.uk by pipe.pipex.net with SMTP (PP); Thu, 29 Jun 1995 00:03:57 +0100 Received: from cityscape.co.uk (ac151.du.pipex.com [193.130.242.151]) by ns.cityscape.co.uk (8.6.4/8.6.4) with SMTP id AAA06669 for <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 00:00:58 +0100 To: [log in to unmask] From: [log in to unmask] (Chris Terran) Subject: Light sf reads (Was Re: Mostly Harmless) Reply-To: [log in to unmask] References: <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 17:07:27 +0100 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Organization: BSFA X-Mailer: Archimedes TTFN Version 0.36 In message <[log in to unmask]> Debbie Jo Halstead wrote: > I suspect this was Adams point. A brief question: would anyone out there > have any suggestions as to other similarly light (lite?) fare? (I'm > trying to encourage a friend who has [unbelievably] read only one > complete novel in her lifetime -- _Restaurant at the End of the > Universe_. She's presently working on _Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective > Agency_.) I'm at a loss for similar stuff beyond Adams that might keep > her hooked. Suggestions anyone? I've found that the two great fireworks which Alfred Bester let off in the fifties -- the novels _Tiger! Tiger!_ (US: _The Stars My Destination_) and _The Demolished Man_ -- have great appeal to those who don't read much of anything, let alone sf. Possibly because they work on more levels than "merely" sf (a revenge tragedy and a murder mystery respectively). Best Chris -- Chris Terran ******************************************* Email: [log in to unmask] * Editor, 'Matrix' - The news magazine of * Voice: 0113 278 2388 * The British Science Fiction Association * Opinions mine ... mine, all mine! ******************************************* From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 19:18:59 1995 Received: from rgfn.epcc.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA06838; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 19:18:59 -0400 Received: by rgfn.epcc.Edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11965; Wed, 28 Jun 95 17:18:54 MDT Date: Wed, 28 Jun 95 17:18:54 MDT Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> From: [log in to unmask] (R. I. Martin) To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Literary Science Fiction Reply-To: [log in to unmask] Hi, Patricia. Thanks for the feedback. Your're right. All SF is "literary" to some extent just by virtue of the fact it's written. I'm trying to figure out what makes some work important and other work trivial. *The Martian Chronicles* was an important book for me. I never saw the world quite the same way afterward. *Lord of the Rings* (fantasy, I know) was another. Contrast that with (to use an example from current discussions) Wookiebooks and Trekbooks. Do they really affect anybody? Is any one going to remember a single one of them fifty years from now? What's the difference? That's what I'm after. Roger Martin ### From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 19:58:36 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA77534; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 19:58:36 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA116713916; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 19:58:36 -0400 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 19:58:36 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: One more burning question... Thanks to all for the comments back on the _Dune_ thing...the book was all right, I'll admit, but I did - for the first and only time - leave the movie before it was over. I've only been on the list server for a few days, and today was the first day that I had a chance to read all the mail. My compliments to the many authors that are participating in this - the volume alone would be incredible, let alone taking the time out of an otherwise hectic day to respond so often. My burning question, though, after reading the discussions of the last few days, is this: "Is there anyone - anyone, out there that reads almost any SF or fantasy book, just to be reading SF or fantasy?" I rarely put a book away unfinished. There have been quite a few that I really didn't care for, but I read them through anyway, just to be able to make an informed decision on them. I also don't quit reading an author just because his or her last book wasn't to my taste; I don't think that that is quite fair to the author. So, the issue that I would like to add to the discussion is that "Is it fair to categorize ANY type of SF/fantasy book {note the absence of the word 'genre'} and dismiss it out of hand?" Point: Trekbooks. I really have read quite a few of those, and since I have read a volume of them, I think that there are good ones and bad ones, just like everywhere else. I tend to shy away from the movie novellas, because I usually have seen the movie. My point is this: When I select a book to read/purchase/borrow, I simply read the description on the back cover, unless it is a series I'm already working on. If the description appeals to me that day, I'll buy or borrow it. If it doesn't, it might another day. Anyone else out there have the same feelings on this subject? Any dissension? Welcome your comments! Thanks Lisa Adams From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 20:43:28 1995 Received: from owlnet.rice.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA61471; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 20:43:28 -0400 Received: from great-gray.owlnet.rice.edu by owlnet.rice.edu (TAA10415); Wed, 28 Jun 1995 19:43:26 -0500 Received: by great-gray.owlnet.rice.edu (8.6.12/Rice Client-1.0) id TAA16271; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 19:43:20 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 19:43:19 -0500 (CDT) From: "John J. Ronald" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Vonnegut To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 28 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > I have read two novels of his, _The Sirens of Titan_ and _Cat's Cradle_, > and have a question for someone who has read him more widely. > His style is troubling. Sometimes it seems his work is to some degree > planned. Sometimes it seems that a highly imaginitive mind is sitting at a > keyboard and making it up as it progresses. > So, once again, the question is hard to phrase. > Does the man know what he's doing? > Is it planned out? > Is this literature or fun writing that will make money? > Is this style or a refusal to flesh out his work? Kurt Vonnegut is indeed problematic. Some of the short stories he writes I would definitely consider SF, while others..... Vonnegut gained acceptance by literary academics before most other SF authors, with most of the lit. crit. types declaring that "Vonnegut is too good to be Science Fiction!" Vonnegut's own thoughts are hard to nail down, exactly. He is part SF, but books like _Slaughterhouse 5_ slide over into the realm of Postmodernism. So in a certain sense he is ALSO a writer of Postmodern Fiction as well. The commentary inside the text of _Slaugterhouse 5_ (and other novels), through the recurring character of Kilgore Trout (who is actually a self-parody of Vonnegut himself) and Trout's fans is disturbing... ...on the one hand he seems to praise SF for its daring to explore areas of thought that other fiction won't touch....but also he satirizes SF by noting that Trout's prose is the most godawful stuff on the market (and his weird ideas are his only saving grace). Vonnegut seems to have fun making fun of SF fans who want to put him securely in their camp, as well as poking fun at regular Literary critcs who claim that "Vonnegut is too good for SF...." and also miss subtle points that SF readers will catch. It seems he won't allow himself to be pidgeonholed, but noted SF critic Barbara Puschmann-Nalenz asserts that over his career Vonnegut has drifted away from SF and become increasingly more and more distinctly postmodern. I myself haven't read enough of his works to make any sort of qualified judgement on this assertion, but I do know I absolutely love his stuff. Hope this helps. --John Ronald Rice University From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 21:04:07 1995 Received: from nohar.rcinet.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA79762; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 21:04:07 -0400 Received: (from smap@localhost) by nohar.rcinet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA06278 for <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 21:04:06 -0400 Received: from dmapub.dma.org(199.18.212.16) by nohar.rcinet.com via smap (V1.3) id sma006274; Wed Jun 28 21:03:47 1995 Received: by dmapub.dma.org (Smail3.1.28.1 #5) id m0sR81B-00028tC; Wed, 28 Jun 95 21:03 EDT Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 21:03:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Darryl Kenning <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: sex/race/class & who you know In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 28 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > Don't ask a question, and then answer it incorrectly. > > You ask why bad Star Trek books get written and sold. The answer is > because there's a huge and undiscriminating market for them. > > There is -not- a huge market, discriminating or otherwise, for > well-written, mature science fiction. Never has been, probably > never will be. > > -- Mike Resnick > Mike: Well of course, we couldn't get 3 fen to agree on what mature Science Fiction is ( or even isn't). darryl ............................................................ . . . Reality is NOT Linear . . =o&o> . ............................................................ From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 22:18:02 1995 Received: from palantiri.spb.su by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA27078; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 22:18:02 -0400 Received: from palnet.UUCP (uuneot@localhost) by bar.palantiri.spb.su (8.6.8/8.6.12) with UUCP id GAA11853 for [log in to unmask]; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 06:12:51 +0400 Received: from palantiri.spb.su by palantiri.spb.su (UUPC/extended 1.12b) with UUCP; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 06:15:16 EDT Received: by palantiri.spb.su (FIDO2UU 1.92b [OS2]); Thu, 29 Jun 1995 06:15:13 +0300 To: [log in to unmask] From: Serge Berezhnoy <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Some definitions of Science Fiction Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 06:15:13 +0300 Ersin Beyret wrote a lot of definitions, I like them all. But: Late Roger Zelazny once said, that when he founded new definition of sf, he wrote sf story that broke that definition apart... The borderlines between sf and fantasy, fantasy and horror, horror and mainstream literature are not clear and too subjective for possibility of objective and universal definition. And let it be forever -- or one fine moment our sf will be "procrusted" by one of those definitions... Good SF! Serge V. Berezhnoy St.Petersburg, Russia [log in to unmask] ... Welcome Here! (Hangman's oldest joke) --- GoldED 2.50.Beta5+ * Origin: Camelot-89. Voice call (812)-310-6007 (2:5030/207.2) From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 23:37:09 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA15742; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 23:37:09 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA225277028; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 23:37:08 -0400 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 23:37:08 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: every(wo)man > It seems to me that one thing feminist criticism has done is to take > apart some of the assumptions about such concepts as everyman. > I suspect that any character you could propose as a potential > everyman, including the Medieval guy of that name, is actually an > every-Man--a character that speaks so strongly to the experience > of males (usually of a particular social group) that those same male > readers conclude that the character must be universal. I found your answers interesting, but I did not mean to say that the everymen don't do an OK job of it. Being unfamiliar with feminist criticism, I am curious as to how this consensus was reached. Even the original Everyman (it's allegorical fantasy, thank you) did a pretty good job of representing the Christian view of all people, despite some obvious references to his gender. Also, I think I might have an answer. The pilgrim's wife, Christiana or something corny like that, with her children are the central characters of the second part of The Pilgrim's Progress. Having only the first part, I assume she represents everybody (but those who have read it, please verify/nullify). Sean D. From [log in to unmask] Wed Jun 28 23:52:40 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA72719; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 23:52:40 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA263927960; Wed, 28 Jun 1995 23:52:40 -0400 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 23:52:40 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Vonnegut Why can't literature be fun writing and make money? They are by no means exclusive, IMHO. From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 00:31:40 1995 Received: from elvis.vnet.net by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA93659; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 00:31:40 -0400 Received: from fredrickgrimm.vnet.net by vnet.net with SMTP id AA25824 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for <[log in to unmask]>); Wed, 28 Jun 1995 23:31:22 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 23:31:22 -0500 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: [log in to unmask] X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: [log in to unmask] From: [log in to unmask] Subject: RE: Vonnegut > >> I have read two novels of his, _The Sirens of Titan_ and _Cat's Cradle_, >>and have a question for someone who has read him more widely. >> His style is troubling. Sometimes it seems his work is to some degree >>planned. Sometimes it seems that a highly imaginitive mind is sitting at a >>keyboard and making it up as it progresses. >> So, once again, the question is hard to phrase. >> Does the man know what he's doing? >> Is it planned out? >> Is this literature or fun writing that will make money? >> Is this style or a refusal to flesh out his work? sometimes the hardest thing to do is to make what your doing look easy. Look at the dancer who seems to naturally know where thier partner will be. He has a very comfortable style but, even if he doesn't outline his books in detail, I can't imagine he just "wings it" For a fun book that seems almost like random thoughts - try Breakfast of Champions Fred G ==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==`==~== Fredrick Grimm [log in to unmask] Someday - I'll hav a sig of My Very Own ...then you'll ALL be sorry! HA HAHAhahahahaaa!!!!! From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 01:18:58 1995 Received: from sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA87948; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 01:18:58 -0400 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id PAA01494 for [log in to unmask]; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 15:18:47 +1000 Received: from msmailgw.isc.gov.au by utilities.isc.gov.au; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Oct94-1214PM) id AA19400; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 14:59:52 +1000 Received: by msmailgw with Microsoft Mail id <2FF31E12@msmailgw>; Thu, 29 Jun 95 14:41:38 PDT From: "Allen, Grant" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy Date: Thu, 29 Jun 95 14:53:00 PDT Message-Id: <2FF31E12@msmailgw> Encoding: 19 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 >>[log in to unmask] said >>"To me, Star Trek is the quintessential SF." >Unfortunately that seems to be a common view. >Trek is SF, SF is Trek. You ask someone if they like SF and they >say "no, I don't like Trek" ! > >Trek may not be fantasy but it's not hard SF either. I'd call it >soft SF with poor science (spot that technobabble) and little >internal consistency. > >Ruth Ballam, I agree with your definition of trek, Ruth. What do think of it's portrayal of the future as some sort of homogenous, harmonious, bland universe? Grant From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 04:19:10 1995 Received: from dorsai.dorsai.org by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA20994; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 04:19:10 -0400 Received: by dorsai.dorsai.org (5.67b/23Dec93-Dorsai Embassy) id AA25452; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 04:17:47 -0400 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 04:17:46 -0400 (edt) From: Terry McGarry <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Poetry In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 26 Jun 1995, set chaos/total wrote: > I have occasionally come across some selections of SF poetry, e.g., David > Gerrold's "The Badlands", some stuff by Joe Haldeman, but only very > occasionally. Are there any anthologies of or sources for SF poetry out there? > > Nancy > I'll add to Mark Levy's and both Andys' replies regarding STAR*LINE by saying that joining the Science Fiction Poetry Association is basically the same thing as subscribing to STAR*LINE (a sort of SF-poetry literary magazine), with two added benefits: you can nominate poems from any publication for the Rhysling Award, and you get a copy of the Rhysling Anthology, which reprints all the nominees and amounts to an anthology of quality SF poems. STAR*LINE also runs reviews of poetry collections, so is a good source of information about what's out there. ASIMOV'S runs poems in every issue, and ABORIGINAL has run a good deal of poetry, if you can find back issues. (It's on hiatus at the moment.) Terry McGarry [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 05:05:01 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA88683; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 05:05:01 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 10:04:44 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 29 Jun 95 10:04:42 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: written vs. films (fwd from moderator) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 95 10:03:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 65 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Mike Resnick: >Before we get on to sf, what makes you think you understand war >more than a GI who has faced enemy fire, or a wife who has lost her >husband on the battlefield? There's a difference between the classroom/library >and the trenches, and I suggest there's also a difference between talking >sf and living it. This is a moot point, pretty much the same as the discussion (which I'm sure we'll get to) about whether a critic who doesn't write for a living can ever make a valid statement about the stuff being criticised. Some (presumably including all the critics) can't understand why those opposed can't see the value of dedicated scholarship, refusing to recognise it as worthwhile or even valid; others (presumably in large part writers) belittle the "knowledge" of people who are not themselves taking part. I'm sure you know that this kind of disagreement exists only because of prejudice on one side or both and therefore cannot sensibly be resolved. Actually there are quite a few things in which I take an interest to the extent of believing that I know something about them. I would think the same goes for pretty much everyone. The argument that actively working with something automatically gives you privileged insight into it compared to that of someone who has not done so is, as I said, specious. Some who are involved in a particular field have considered and rational ideas about it; the same goes for some outside it. On both sides also are prejudiced people who do not. As to war itself, however, one need only glance at The Forever War or the Dorsai books or Dune or Hammer's Slammers or any number of other SF books to find a viewpoint speculating that those units on the ground are the last people you would expect to know anything significant about why things happen the way they do. You certainly get to experience getting shot at, yes. But Platoon (so it's not SF - shame), for instance, seems to be partly about how that perhaps shows you the dark side of yourself only, if anything. Born on the Fourth of July goes on to suggest that once you have been shot at and killed history can be rewritten around you to cast you as others see fit by people who actively delude themselves as to what really might have happened. On the other hand there are the people who spend time examining the broader picture in the belief that that is valuable scholarship (and some of them, in passing, making films like this, containing ideas whose validity can then be considered). This kind of idea is open for discussion, and probably always will be. To say, however, that there is "a difference" between classroom/library and the trenches, and another between "talking sf and living it" is a clear rhetorical truth that obviously says nothing whatever about the relationship between these pairs of things except that they aren't identical. >However, since you obviously don't agree, you make the pronouncements >and I'll listen and take notes. You are misrepresenting me. I didn't agree with your idea that it was helpful to tell people "the answer" and then also tell them that their particular experience made them incapable of understanding it (that is, of agreeing or disagreeing - I believe that's how you put it). I don't think I've taken part in the discussion of authors' fates at all, merely questioned the usefulness of putting a point of view this way. But I think you said that the original discussion was over. I think I've answered your specific points, and it seems couterproductive to resurrect the earlier discussion by trying to discuss /it/. Dave From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 07:34:47 1995 Received: from ulkyvm.louisville.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA85763; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 07:34:47 -0400 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Received: from ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU by ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6900; Thu, 29 Jun 95 07:37:24 EDT Received: from ULKYVM (RAROEH01) by ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU (Mailer R2.10 ptf000) with BSMTP id 8961; Thu, 29 Jun 95 07:37:24 EDT Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X Date: Thu, 29 Jun 95 07:37:24 EDT From: Bob Roehm <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Vonnegut In-Reply-To: note of 06/29/95 07:29 To: "SF & Fantasy Discussion Forum" <[log in to unmask]> I, too, am a great admirer of Vonnegut, particularly his earlier books (say, up to, but not including, Breakfast of Champions). A new novel, titled Timequake, was announced by Putnam seems like a couple years ago, postponed, then withdrawn from their list entirely. Anyone know of any further details of this? Bob Robert A. Roehm Asst., Office of Collection Mgmt., Ekstrom Library Univ of Louisville, Louisville KY 40292 [log in to unmask] - (502)852-8715 From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 08:19:37 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA82026; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 08:19:37 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 13:18:53 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 29 Jun 95 13:18:50 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: RE: Literary Science Fiction Date: Thu, 29 Jun 95 13:18:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 33 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 >Your're right. All SF is "literary" to some extent just >by virtue of the fact it's written. I'm trying to figure >out what makes some work important and other work trivial. > >*The Martian Chronicles* was an important book for me. I >never saw the world quite the same way afterward. *Lord >of the Rings* (fantasy, I know) was another. > >Contrast that with (to use an example from current >discussions) Wookiebooks and Trekbooks. Do they really >affect anybody? Is any one going to remember a single one of >them fifty years from now? I'd like to think I'll remember Barbara Hambly's ST novel Ghostwalker. I read it a couple of years back because of the author and as an experiment, having given up on ST novels generally many years ago because they really did seem to exist only to generate money from an established and safe audience. This one concentrated on the "villain" and his society in a way that I found truly interesting, taking advantage of the familiar setting and the tediously familiar main characters to address that focus with particular care. In fact I've just bought another of her ST novels on that basis. No idea whether it will support this view of her writing, but it will be interesting to find out. This doesn't, I think, make me any more interested in ST per se than I was before (that is, not very much...), but it's interesting to me to see someone using something so monolithic for comparatively delicate purposes. Speaking more broadly, it is by no means a particularly great novel. As an example of the kind of thing it is, though, I thought it achieved some interesting things. Dave From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 09:19:25 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA100162; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 09:19:25 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA036681964; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 09:19:24 -0400 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 09:19:24 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Everywoman _The Search for signs of intelligent life in the universe_, by Jane Wagner, Harper and Row Publishers. The play premiered on September 26, 1985 at the Plymouth Theatre in New York City and was performed by Lily Tomlin. Adora [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 10:06:06 1995 Received: from vnet.ibm.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23214; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 10:06:06 -0400 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Received: from CLTVM1 by VNET.IBM.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 3877; Thu, 29 Jun 95 10:06:00 EDT Date: Thu, 29 Jun 95 10:03:38 EDT From: [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Dune >Thanks to all for the comments back on the _Dune_ thing...the book was all >right, I'll admit, but I did - for the first and only time - leave the movie >before it was over. I would recommend you find a copy of the "Uncut" version of Dune. It's around three hours long, but much better than the theatrical release. It still falls short of the book, (or books, since some of the occurances in the movie happen in later volumes) but it is much better. IMHO of course. Later, Robert D. Bair IBM Charlotte RDBAIR at CLTVM1 CSP Test Engineering Support [log in to unmask] AR: WB3AHC, 1st Class FCC: P1-3-17298, Tripoli: #2253, NAR: #60163 From cstu Thu Jun 29 10:53:52 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA103999; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 10:53:52 -0400 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 10:53:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: humorous books Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It may be hard to find these in the bookstore, as they may be out of print, but the humor books I like are: _The Princess Bride_, by William Goldman, 1973. _Doone_, put out by Harvard Lampoon _Bored of the Rings_, also by Harvard Lampoon The last two are paradies of _Dune_ and _Lord of the Rings_. I personally find these books amusing and will re-read them when I am a bit blue. Colleen _________________________________________________________________________ Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian [log in to unmask] Library of Congress (202) 707-4132 Washington, DC 20540-4861 FAX: (202) 707-4142 These opinions are mine, Mine MINE! __________________________________________________________________________ From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 11:19:01 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA27728; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 11:19:01 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA16345; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 10:18:37 -0500 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 10:19:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: humorous books In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950629101828.642E-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hmm, maybe the Stainless Steel Rat would be a reasonable place to start, too, for 'light' entertainment? AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 11:35:02 1995 Received: from Kitten.mcs.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA86435; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 11:35:02 -0400 Received: from nsls1.nslsilus.org (nsls1.nslsilus.org [192.160.127.70]) by kitten.mcs.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA17748 for <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 10:35:00 -0500 Received: by nsls1.nslsilus.org (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.5) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 29 Jun 95 10:34 CDT Sender: [log in to unmask] (Roberta Johnson) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 10:34:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Roberta Johnson <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Roberta Johnson <[log in to unmask]> Reply-To: Roberta Johnson <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: humorous books To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Thu, 29 Jun 1995, Colleen Stumbaugh wrote: > It may be hard to find these in the bookstore, as they may be out of > print, but the humor books I like are: > > _The Princess Bride_, by William Goldman, 1973. > _Doone_, put out by Harvard Lampoon > _Bored of the Rings_, also by Harvard Lampoon > > The last two are paradies of _Dune_ and _Lord of the Rings_. I > personally find these books amusing and will re-read them when I am a bit > blue. > Colleen So happy to report that Bored of the Rings is back in print, for those of you that missed the adventures of Frito and his sidekicks Moxie and Pepsi the first time around. They're calling it the Fifty-first Anniversary Edition--can this be true? Or is it part of the joke? Couldn't find Doone, but _Princess Bride_ is available in cloth and paper, and IMO (I'm rarely humble) the movie is better than the book. Roberta> > > From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 11:47:39 1995 Received: from bukula.enternet.com.au by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA69028; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 11:47:39 -0400 Received: from e1c30.can.enternet.com.au (e1c30.can.enternet.com.au [203.63.44.30]) by bukula.enternet.com.au with SMTP id BAA20759 (8.6.11/IDA-1.6 for <[log in to unmask]>); Fri, 30 Jun 1995 01:47:34 +1000 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 01:47:34 +1000 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: [log in to unmask] X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: [log in to unmask] From: [log in to unmask] (Garry Wyatt) Subject: 19th Century SF, SF/F definitions, SF Thesaurus & SF Movies 19th Century SF: I've consulted Graham Stone (Australian Science Fiction Index 1925-1967, Notes on Australian Science Fiction, and contributor to Twentieth Century Science Fiction Writers) and he advises me that there's not much Australian short-story work from this era worth reprinting. He does recommend some of the extracts from novels in Australian Science Fiction edited by Van Ikin (ISBN 0-89733-103-6). SF/F definitions: I've noticed that we've got about 500 on the good ship SF-LIT and I fully expect that we'll have at least twice as many definitions! I have to admit that I don't like the term speculative fiction - I feel that its too vague. My Sirius colleagues tend to agree (Sirius has "The Australian magazine for readers of science fiction, fantasy and the macabre" in its banner...). A discussion of SF/F definitions is always a wonderful ice-breaker though! SF Thesaurus: We're very keen to see the 40 page version of Cameron's system, decribed in a previous message from Michael Bowman, and put it to work. Gayle Lovett's The Four-Part Trilogy (a checklist of series and sequels in science fiction, fantasy and horror. ISBN 0-646-21164-1) is already in database form (We use Microsoft Access 2.0) and we'd like to incorporate the classification system into the database. I should explain that the Sirius team consists of Gayle Lovett (librarian and bookseller), Robyn-Cecilia Grieve (IT professional), Christine Arthur (librarian), and myself (IT professional) - and we're all technophiles/software & database junkies. Graham Stone (see above) and Colin Steele (University Librarian, Australian National University) are our sources of inspiration and contribute regular columns to Sirius. SF Movies: Sci-Fi Universe reports that Robert A. Heinlein's Starship Troopers may appear in cinema form. I can't resist any film with the potential for dialogue like: "Bugs, Mr Rico! Zillions of 'em!" Discussion point: What constitutes modern fantasy? I've always suspected that a modern-day form of fantasy is lurking out there somewhere without the need of quasi-medieval settings and the obligatory dragon (who's really just misunderstood...) At Sirius we've speculated on 'intrusive fantasy' (if this term hasn't surfaced before it belongs to Christine Arthur...) on how elements of fantasy impact on or can be part of the modern-day world - Stalking the Unicorn by SF-LIT's own Mike Resnick is sort of heading in the general direction but it's not quite there - a unicorn was still needed... Robert Jordan (of Wheel of Time fame) felt that the closest thing to modern fantasy at the moment is the modern horror genre. I can see the argument, but it doesn't really satisfy me. Garry Wyatt, Editor Sirius: The Australian magazine for readers of science fiction, fantasy and the macabre ph: (06) 231 8975 (AH) fax: (06) 282 5995 (BH) From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 12:12:00 1995 Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA59997; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 12:12:00 -0400 Received: from uxa.liv.ac.uk by mail.liv.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 29 Jun 1995 17:11:33 +0100 From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: My www home-page To: [log in to unmask] Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 17:11:30 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Colleen Stumbaugh" at Jun 23, 95 12:12:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 643 Could one or two people do be a favour? Since I annnounced my web page some people have got through and some haven't. If some of you in the US could try, and let me know the results, I might be able to identify the problem. Don't put yourself out to do it, but I'd appreciate knowing if it's working properly. Thanks a lot -- Andy Sawyer, Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK 0151-794-2733/2696 [log in to unmask] http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html "Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 12:20:51 1995 Received: from DEPAUW.EDU by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA77131; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 12:20:51 -0400 Received: from DEPAUW.EDU by DEPAUW.EDU (PMDF V4.3-10 #9248) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 11:19:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 11:19:55 -0500 (EST) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: literary sf? To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" X-Vms-Cc: ICRONAY Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Andy Sawyer is seducing me to reveal the contents of the latest issue of _Science-Fiction Studies_. Resistance appears to be futile (and the issue is almost out, if not already on your local Laputan newsstand). Here's the T of c: George Slusser and Daniele Chatelain: "Spacetime Geometries: Time Travel and the Modern Geometrical Narrative" (emphasis here is on Borges, Hein- lein, and pre-deconstructionist French literary theory) Andrea Bell: "_Desde Jupiter_:Chile's Earliest Science-Fiction Novel" (a lovely piece of scholarship, Borges could have written it) Rob Latham: "Subterranean Suburbia: Underneath the Smalltown Myth in the Two Versions of _Invaders from Mars_" James W. Maertens: "Between Jules Verne and Walt Disney: Brains, Brawn, and Masculine Desire in _20,000 Leagues Under the Sea_" Marie-Noelle Zeender: "The 'Moi-peau" of Leto II in Herbert's Atreides Saga" (a fascinating and unexpected psychoanalytic reading, NOT for the anti-postmodernists) David Seed: "The Postwar Jeremiads of Philip Wylie" (the first study of Wylie's work, I think) Thomas A. Bredehoft: "The Gibson Continuum: Cyberspace and Gibson's Mervyn Kihn Stories." The review articles are Samuel R. Delany's _Silent Interviews_ (by David Samuelson) and Keithe Booker's _Dystopian Impulse_ and _Dystopian Literature_ (by Peter Fitting). The Virtual Futures Andy is referring to was a conference at the Univer- sity of Warwick at the end of May -- I guess it's becoming an annual gathering sponsored by Warwick's Philosophy Dept. The governing statement begins with "We have gathered you here this weekend to bury the 20th century and begin work on the 21st... We will not know the results of the tumultuous global changes we are undergoing and creating for a hun- dred years or more, if we can survive them, but we are less interested in knowledge than in experiencing these changes..." The "theme" of this year's conference was "Cyberevolutions." I went to give a paper (on VR and the future of religion), to pontificate on a panel on cyberpunk, to meet some writers, to drink gallons of bitter with friends, and to simply be in England. Postmod conferences are like all conferences -- loads of pretentious bs, but memorable moments of intense and friendly intellectual communication. Virtual Futures was more like this than others for me. The governing group follows the ideas of the wild French philosophers, Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari. Those ideas are unsystematic, erudite, difficult, extremely provocative, and hard to talk about, let alone organize conferences around. I can say this for the confe- rence, my previous grudging respect for D-G turned to real admiration. Anyway, the conference... So the scene is England, 1995, the hippest of the youth. People are wearing more black than the Japanese Diet. Huge quantities of gold are displayed arrayed along earlobes, ear-cartilage, nostrils, lips, tongues, and no doubt other less visible spots -- the safety-deposit zones. Doc Martins on every hoof. Faces white, hearts and intentions multicult. More cigarette smoke than I seen in years in the U.S. A lot of the featured talks aspired to beatnik cafe poetry -- missing were the bongos, noodling saxes and "man" at the end of every sentence, but the intentions were clear. There actually were several multi-media performances, but the sound of choice backing the talkers was a sort of electro-orgasmic panic, the noises an airplane must make when it hits violent turbulence at 30,000 feet. ("Whooooa! Wow!") It was a sort of Nihilists' Ball. I didn't go to the rave (how many philosophy departments adjourn for a rave?), but a certain buzzing ecstasy was evident among all the black cloth. There were a few talks devoted specifically to science fiction, but that wasn't the point. It was pretty clear that the whole attending crowd had read deeplt in sf and knew its cyberpunk lit, film and music backwards and for- wards. PC and Net usage terms were part of the vocabulary. The point was that everything those two or three hundred people thought and did they conceived as living sf. An outsider would probably have considered the group prime material for sf. The most intriguing things at the conference were the multimedia and experimental performances. Multi-media was very crude, but full of heart. Typical example: the group "Orphan Drift" did a (to me) incomprehensible slide show/video/music/reading called "Death Simstim." Is Death-Simstim good or bad? Doesit matter? I didn't catch that part, but I won't forget the phrase. The Australian performance artist Stelarc (a lovely down-to-earth guy) explained and demonstrated the use of his prosthetic third arm, and his newer work in stimulating the movements of his left arm through computer-generated myoelectric stimulations. But the piece de resistance had to be the French performance artist, Orlan's presentation on her "surgery art." Orlan is a "surgery artist," don't ya know. She has plastic surgery done according to certain abstract specifications, has it videotaped while it is being performed in the o.r., and then discusses it live while the video is played behind her on the big screen. This is Big Art, and gets Big Funding from international arts' funding institutions. The experience of watching an operation on Orlan's facial skin was definitely weird sf. It isn't so much the blood (not much of it, actually) or the cutting, or even the forceps loosening the epidermis from the rest of the tissue from undeneath, like some crazy geometrical mole on speed making square molehills, it's the combi- nation of all this with the fact that Orlan has designed the o.r. uniforms herself to make a fashion statement (her sign-language inter- preter (!) wore a sort of neo-Golden Temple Kundalini Sikh turban-robe combination with accents of Elsa's Bride of Frankenstein), and the fact that, being French, Orlan is talking throughout the whole operation, even when her lips have been anaesthetized and they're customizing them. A hilarious, weird, troubling, and unforgettable experience. Enuff. Ya had to've been there. Still, it's important to me that there are so many people (mainly young) who consider sf to be a valid commentary on their lives. We now return control of your pc set. Istvan From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 13:00:06 1995 Received: from whistler.sfu.ca by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA37212; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 13:00:06 -0400 Received: from monashee.sfu.ca ([log in to unmask] [142.58.101.11]) by whistler.sfu.ca with ESMTP (8.6.11/SFU-2.6H) id KAA01433 for <[log in to unmask]> (from byfield); Thu, 29 Jun 1995 10:00:04 -0700 From: Bruce Byfield <[log in to unmask]> Received: by monashee.sfu.ca (8.6.10/SFU-2.3C) id KAA28746 for [log in to unmask] (from byfield); Thu, 29 Jun 1995 10:00:02 -0700 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: every (wo)man To: [log in to unmask] Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 10:00:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1256 The original posting on this topic asked if there were any stories featuring a female protagonist who didn't have a sexual experience in the story. My first thought was that this was a pretty meaningless question. Now, I've reconsidered. There are hundreds of stories in which men do non-sexual things. However, apparently, the orginal poster (and perhaps many others) has the impression that, when a woman is a protagonist, a sexual encounter is automatically part of the story. If this impression is correct, then it might follow that many SF writers think of women as being defined by sexuality in a way that men aren't. If true, then this idea points to a major failure of imagination, although I'm not sure that SF writers are unique in this failure. I don't go around compiling statistics, but my impression is that a lot of SF does portray women in this way. However, there have always been exceptions. A notable early one is Asimov's Susan Calvin. And, just last week, I read Eleanor Arnason's Ring of Swords, whose central character is a female researcher whose main concern is her research. -- Bruce Byfield ([log in to unmask]) English Department, Simon Fraser University Burnaby, B. C. Canada V5A 1S6 604-291-3136 From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 13:15:45 1995 Received: from ux1.isu.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA40531; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 13:15:45 -0400 Received: from LCS.ISU.EDU (fs.isu.edu) by ux1.isu.edu with SMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA294876062; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 11:14:22 -0600 Received: from LCS/MAILQUEUE by LCS.ISU.EDU (Mercury 1.13); Thu, 29 Jun 95 11:23:32 -0600 Received: from MAILQUEUE by LCS (Mercury 1.13); Thu, 29 Jun 95 11:23:23 -0600 From: "Brian Attebery" <[log in to unmask]> Organization: Idaho State University To: [log in to unmask] Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 11:23:21 MST Subject: Re: every(wo)man Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Remember what Huck Finn said about _Pilgrim's Progress_: "It's about a man who leaves his wife and kids--it didn't say why." The first part of the book is supposed to represent everybody--except women and children. Brian Attebery > Also, I think I might have an answer. The pilgrim's wife, Christiana or > something corny like that, with her children are the central characters of > the second part of The Pilgrim's Progress. Having only the first part, I > assume she represents everybody (but those who have read it, please > verify/nullify). > > Sean D. > From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 13:47:01 1995 Received: from whistler.sfu.ca by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA55382; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 13:47:01 -0400 Received: from monashee.sfu.ca ([log in to unmask] [142.58.101.11]) by whistler.sfu.ca with ESMTP (8.6.11/SFU-2.6H) id KAA05784 for <[log in to unmask]> (from byfield); Thu, 29 Jun 1995 10:46:58 -0700 From: Bruce Byfield <[log in to unmask]> Received: by monashee.sfu.ca (8.6.10/SFU-2.3C) id KAA29654 for [log in to unmask] (from byfield); Thu, 29 Jun 1995 10:19:07 -0700 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Writers and Non-Writing Specialists To: [log in to unmask] Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 10:19:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2275 Mike Resnick wrote (in a reply on another subject to someone else): Before we get on to sf, what makes you think you understand war more than a GI who has faced enemy fire, or a wife who has lost her husband on the battlefield? There's a difference between the classroom/library and the trenches, and I suggest there's also a difference between talking sf and living it. I'd like to use this comment as a spring board to another topic. I may be completely wrong, but in Mike Resnick's last sentence, I seem to hear echoes of sentiments held by many writers about critics and other non-writing specialists. As a sometime academic (and soon to be an ex-one, given budget cuts), I have to confess that much of the resentment towards critics by writers is completely justified. Critics are often thwarted writers themselves, and I think that they compensate by adopting an air of arrogance. Often, they erect elaborate critical structures, full of jargon, which serves little purpose beyond sounding impressive. All but the best forget that theirs is a secondary art, that their purpose is add insight and enjoyment to a primary art. However, I also question the need for first-hand experience implied by Mike Resnick's last comment. Writers aren't always the best judges of their own work; often, they're too close to it. Some don't want to investigate their work too closely, in case self-consciousness will prevent them from working. And, while any decent critic has a lively sympathy for the writer's viewpoint, there's many examples of teachers and editors who, while showing no particular talent for writing themselves, know how to bring out the best in others. There's also a few non-writing specialists who, by their interest in a writer, help to keep interest in the writer's work alive, as August Derleth did with Lovecraft. It seems to me, then, that there's something to be said on both sides. But, if I had to place the blame, I'd put in on the non-writing specialists, who not only assume an unwarranted air of superiority, but who also receive far more money than the average writer for doing so. -- Bruce Byfield ([log in to unmask]) English Department, Simon Fraser University Burnaby, B. C. Canada V5A 1S6 604-291-3136 From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 14:40:23 1995 Received: from bos1h.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA43991; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 14:40:23 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 14:40:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 14:40:21 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Nothing new under the sun... To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Ecclesiastes did indeed say "There is nothing new under the sun." Also, the US Patent office was closed for a year, circa 1868, because there was nothing left to invent. I suspect neither ever heard of the transistor, the silicon chip, or Glad-Wrap. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 14:45:23 1995 Received: from bos1h.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA51030; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 14:45:23 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 14:45:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 14:45:21 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Pulp books series - good or bad? To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Re: my daughter. She's done all 15 of her romance novels (and she's won a couple of awards in that field, including Best Novel) under pseudonyms. She's written her sf under her own name -- Laura Resnick -- and I don't think anyone will ever know if the name helped her or hurt her when she won the Campbell (along with recognition, there had to be some resentment, too). She just signed a very lucrative 2-book fantasy contract with Tor, and British rights are already sold to MacMillan, and Tor didn't throw money at her just because of her name, so I have to assume she's found her proper market level, at least as of this moment. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 15:36:22 1995 Received: from gate.bmgmusic.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA43816; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 15:36:22 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Received: from in1vines.bmgmusic.com by gate.bmgmusic.com with SMTP id AA16075 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for <[log in to unmask]>); Thu, 29 Jun 1995 14:27:05 -0500 Received: by IN1VINES.bmgmusic.com; Thu, 29 Jun 95 15:34:17 EDT Date: Thu, 29 Jun 95 15:29:58 EDT Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: re: Vonnegut Kilgore Trout is, yes, something of an alter ego for Vonnegut himself. But he's much more a fairly accurate depiction of Philip K. Dick. The fact that Vonnegut would have been that familiar with Dick argues that he was conversant enough with the SF field to know that his early novels (and many of his short stories -- "Harrison Bergeron" is a minor dystopian classic) were solidly within the field, despite his demurrals. Vonnegut's SF-ness has been fodder for much academic squabbling over the years, thoug not as much lately, since (sadly) neither side seems terribly much interested in laying claim to his recent novels. Andy Wheeler From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 15:45:50 1995 Received: from ns.pilot.net by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA93359; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 15:45:50 -0400 Received: from Altera.COM by mail.pilot.net (4.1 1/7/93 /SMI-4.1) id AA15586; Thu, 29 Jun 95 12:45:49 PDT Received: from rodan.altera.com by Altera.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA10022; Thu, 29 Jun 95 12:47:00 PDT Received: from martinw by rodan.altera.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06783; Thu, 29 Jun 95 12:47:32 PDT From: [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] Subject: SF Academia (was Written vs. Films) Reply-To: [log in to unmask] Date: Thu, 29 Jun 95 12:35:38 PDT Message-Id: <9506291935.265DE4@martinw> X-Mailer: SelectMAIL 1.2 Istvan Csicsery-Ronay, Jr. ([log in to unmask]) wrote: |I guess my question is: are there people lurking out there who would like |to exchange messages about sf art, scholarship and research, but have felt |pushed right off the screen by the chatter, or am I just barking up the |wrong list? Hello Istvan (I believe it may be Dr. Istvan?). I think and hope that you are on the right list. I can't speak from the experience of having visited many other lists, but I have seen posted to this list several thoughtful examples of (what I would consider to be) scholarly explorations into SF. My greatest interest in participating in this list is to propose and pursue ideas that are related to the study and research of SF, not unlike what might be found in SCIENCE-FICTION STUDIES and EXTRAPOLATIONS. |But I am puzzled why it is that no sf |list devoted to scholarly or artistic questions has managed to survive. As I mentioned, I haven't explored many other SF lists, and what you say here is somewhat distressing. When I recently went looking for academic SF journals and found only two (those I mention above), I had hoped that I could find some other scholarly discussion of SF on the Net. I would welcome any information you have on any other lists that are focused on SF study. -Martin S. Won [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 15:46:52 1995 Received: from gate.bmgmusic.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA52784; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 15:46:52 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Received: from in1vines.bmgmusic.com by gate.bmgmusic.com with SMTP id AA07432 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for <[log in to unmask]>); Thu, 29 Jun 1995 14:39:22 -0500 Received: by IN1VINES.bmgmusic.com; Thu, 29 Jun 95 15:26:20 EDT Date: Thu, 29 Jun 95 15:14:58 EDT Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: re: sex/race/class & who you know To respond to Mr. Scott, I actually _do_ think publishers try to get the best writers and best books they can. We went into the business, most of us, because we really love books, though we do occasionally shake our heads ruefully at each other over the things we find ourselves selling... I'm sure the fine people at Pocket do their best to get the best writers for their Star Trek books that they can. Ditto Bantam with Star Wars; ditto everyone else. Mr. Resnick (and many others) won't write sharecropped books, for various respectable reasons. Pocket has a big program: I think it's now two paperbacks a month, plus several hardcovers a year. That's a lot of books to be written. Someone is going to be found to write those books, and the editors start at the top of their own individual piles and work down from there. We can bemoan the fact that Pocket is publishing Trek instead of its long- lamented Timescape SF line, but the fact is 1) Trek is a very attractive property, so someone would be doing it, and 2) the higher level powers that be (non-SF types) killed Timescape, since the Trek program would clearly make more money for them. But every individual editor and publisher is looking for the best work he/she can, and hoping (when he/she finds it -- and here I speak from personal experience) there will be a way to sell it to an often uninterested public. I don't want to tell you about all the times I read a book I really liked and then spent weeks racking my brains for a "hook" to sell it with. If you want good books, buy them, read them, tell all your friends about them. And don't buy books you think are bad. Otherwise, you're just encouraging us to do things you don't like. Andy Wheeler From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 16:00:29 1995 Received: from relay1.geis.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA93420; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 16:00:29 -0400 Received: by relay1.geis.com (1.37.109.11/15.6) id AA016716016; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 20:00:16 GMT From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 95 19:47:00 UTC To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Trek/Star Wars Books X-Genie-Id: 2130923 X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2 Mike, I know that Barbara Hambly takes her Trek and Star Wars very seriously, and expends the same amount of effort on them as she does her other books. She's very careful about plotting and characterization, and always finds ways of doing something new and different that the Roddenberry regime would've hated. I don't imagine that all the Trek and Star Wars authors are this committed (I know for a fact that some aren't), but it is possible to write a very good novel that's all your own within these narrowly circumscribed universes. I'm sorry for not going "hear, hear" to all you've been saying, but you're doing such a good job--and I'm incredibly busy now--I've just let you speak for me (and a lot of our colleagues). Your pal, George -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 16:00:30 1995 Received: from relay1.geis.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA71918; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 16:00:30 -0400 Received: by relay1.geis.com (1.37.109.11/15.6) id AA016786024; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 20:00:24 GMT From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 95 19:47:00 UTC To: [log in to unmask] Subject: "Talent" in SF X-Genie-Id: 4342793 X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2 Richard, if only talent gets published, please explain Lionel Fanthorpe. Or any of dozens of others I could mention. A pleasant stroll down the pathway of near-illiteracy is Neil Gaiman's (and somebody else) GHASTLY BEYOND BELIEF, which is a compendium of spectaculary bad paragraphs from genuine fantasy and SF books. Some of these were written by authors who were writing at the top of their form (but they were incompetent to begin with), some by average writers who now and then mess up in print, and some by SF stars such as Isaac Asimov. That's a wonderful book to search out from a used bookstore or dealer. The first thing I did when I got the book was check to see if anything of mine was quoted. Thank God, no (although some of my stuff could've been). (signed) "Moderately Literate in New Orleans" From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 16:00:32 1995 Received: from relay1.geis.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA54777; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 16:00:32 -0400 Received: by relay1.geis.com (1.37.109.11/15.6) id AA016846026; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 20:00:26 GMT From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 95 19:47:00 UTC To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Metamorphosis X-Genie-Id: 7732951 X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2 Re: Dragging Kafka into this discussion. In Barbara Hambly's topic on GEnie, there's been a lot talk about sequels that didn't need to be written. I think that if a book is superlative (or at least, very popular, or both), and the story comes to a good, natural, and satisfying ending, the sequel is usually something I don't want to know about--particularly if the sequel is someone other than the original book's author. I might mention SCARLETT, the unnecessary sequel to GONE WITH THE WIND. I posted in Barbara's topic that I'd seen the paperback of MINA, the unnecessary sequel to DRACULA, and hoped sincerely that someone wouldn't write RENFIELD. I suggested that Andrew Lloyd Webber would get hold of that and make it into a Broadway musical called RENFIELD! Someone said that they hoped no one combined RENFIELD and Kafka's METAMORPHOSIS. I said immediately that there's a pretty good funny story in that idea, and I intend to write it--as a short story, not a novel. Back to fantasy and SF, two sequels that might not have needed to be written have turned out to be excellent--MARY REILLY, a major bestseller by my good friend, Valerie Martin. It's DR. JEKYLL AND MR. HYDE told from the point of view of one of the doctor's servants. It's being made into a major motion picture. The other is a sequel to WIND IN THE WILLOWS, and I don't have the book handy to mention title and author. It, also, is excellent. Valerie has always been an extremely intelligent and fine writer; the WIND sequel surprised me. (signed) "Sequels? Who me?" From eaj Thu Jun 29 19:07:44 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA07344; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 19:07:44 -0400 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 19:07:44 -0400 (EDT) From: "Eric A. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Literary SF & LC Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII As the Library of Congress Recommending Officer for Science Fiction, I get to spend all of 2 or 4 hours a week working on SF (the rest of my time is spent on my real job). The fact that the Library lets me spend even that much official time on SF is probably amazing--but it does mean that I have to make serious decisions about how I will spend my time. For my first year or so on the job, I spent my SF hours mainly working on the Library's Collections Policy Statement for Fantasy & Science Fiction with the help of seven fellow LC fen/staff (the Library has "statements" for every single subject or format in which it collects material--which means we have one for just about everything except for clinical medicine and technical agriculture which are the responsibility of the National Library of Medicine and the National Agricultural Library respectively and for genre literature which has been traditionally ignored). A few weeks ago, the Library of Congress officially adopted the Collections Policy Statement for Fantasy & Science Fiction which means that we are now officially in the business of collecting and preserving SF--a minor miracle that was about four years in the making. Problems remain (like the "small" problem that LC does not catalog, process, or bind mass market paperbacks) but at least SF at LC is finally getting somewhere. The Library's collections policy statement for F&SF helps me define my job as the SF Recommending Officer. Basically, it states that I am to try to acquire SF (broadly defined) of literary, artistic, or cultural merit published throughout the world for the Library's collections. (Another "small" problem is that I have no book budget so I have to rely on the copyright law for acquiring US publications--which doesn't always work well especially with small presses, on exchange for foreign publications, and on gifts). As I only have 2 or 4 (I forget which :-) official hours a week to officially worry about SF, I have to chose what it is I do carefully. (And of course I am biased in my personal preference for literary SF which I why the Library selected me for the job in the first place.) As a result, I spend exactly zero seconds per week worrying about whether or not we have every single StarTrek, Star Wars, DragonQuest/Lance/Whatever book, and other such books published in never ending series. I just don't have the time or the interest to worry about these book products (and much of this material ends up by default being fully cataloged by the Library because the Library will catalog just about anything it acquires in hardcover--which saddens me when I think of what SF is NOT getting cataloged--and because much of this material ends up in what is called the Copyright Paperback Collection which will be around for a long while for those who want to study popular fiction published in the 20th century). I spend my remaining 2 or 4 hours worrying about foreign SF, SF periodical publications, and literary SF. I am not going to try defining literary SF as I don't really have a definition and I wouldn't really use it (as GAE pointed out butterflies are more beautiful just fluttering by than they are stuck on pins after a trip through the killing jar). Instead, what I will do is append a list of literary, signficant, or classic SF writers whom I am now officially allowed to worry about (the list also includes some fantasy and horror as I am by default responsible for those collections as well but does not include writers like Jules Verne and Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. whom the Library treats as mainstream writers). The list is far from perfect and far from complete (the 8 SF fen at LC who compiled it referred to various publications and similar lists by groups like NESFA and others). We tried to focus on award-winning writers, on writers of classic SF, and on those who have otherwise made a significant contribution to the field. This list is just one of the five appendices to the F&SF Collections Policy Statement, so between the other appendices (they list SF awards and things like that) and the rest of the statement, I can basically find a justification for adding almost any SF title of literary or cultural merit. All the appenidices to the policy statement are loose-leaf and they are intended to be updated periodically. What you see below is the first cut as of June 1994 and it has a definite anglophone bias. If you have any suggestions for literary or classic or significant SF writers who should be added to the list, you can post them on SF-LIT or send them directly to me ([log in to unmask]) for consideration. As the Library by no means has complete collections of any of the authors listed below (our tradition of not processing mass market paperbacks is a real stick in the spokes of SF), most of my job will be focused on improving our collections of these authors as well as any significant new (and old) works by other writers who are what SF should really be about. EAJ ----------------------------------------------------------------- APPENDIX V. (last updated June 1994) The Library of Congress should attempt to collect all the works by the following authors who have won multiple- awards within the genre or have otherwise achieved distinction in the field: Aldiss, Brian Anderson, Poul Asimov, Isaac Ballard, J.G. Bear, Greg Bester, Alfred Bishop, Michael Bisson, Terry Blish, James Bradbury, Ray Bradley, Marion Zimmer Brin, David Brown, Fredric Brunner, John Bryant, Edward Budrys, Algis Bujold, Lois McMaster Burroughs, Edgar Rice Butler, Octavia Cadigan, Pat Card, Orson Scott Charnas, Suzy McKee Cherryh, C.J. Clarke, Arthur C. Clement, Hal Crowley, John Dann, Jack Davidson, Avram de Camp, L. Sprague del Rey, Lester Delany, Samuel R. Dick, Philip K. Dickson, Gordon R. Disch, Thomas Dozois, Gardner Effinger, George Alec Ellison, Harlan Farmer, Philip Jose Gerrold, David Gibson, William Haldeman, Joe Harrison, Harry Heinlein, Robert A. Herbert, Frank King, Stephen Knight, Damon Koontz, Dean Kornbluth, C.M. Kress, Nancy Lafferty, R.A. Le Guin, Ursula K. Leiber, Fritz Leinster, Murray Lem, Stanislaw Lovecraft, H.P. Martin, George R.R. May, Julian McCaffrey, Anne McEvoy, R.A. McIntyre, Vonda Miller, Jr., Walter Murphy, Pat Niven, Larry Norton, Andre Pohl, Frederik Pournelle, Jerry Resnick, Mike Robinson, Kim Stanley Russ, Joanna Scheckley, Robert Sheffield, Charles Shepard, Lucius Silverberg, Robert Simak, Clifford Smith, Cordwainer Spinrad, Norman Sterling, Bruce Sturgatsky, Arkady & Boris Sturgeon, Theodore Swanwick, Michael Tiptree, James, Jr. Tolkein, J.R.R. Van Vogt, A.E. Varley, John Vinge, Joan Vinge, Vernor Waldrop, Howard Wilhelm, Kate Wolfe, Gene Zelazny, Roger From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 19:30:26 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA93897; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 19:30:26 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA106798625; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 19:30:25 -0400 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 19:30:25 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Quantum Leap Looking for someone who has seen "The Leap Home." What do you think about the bartender? Is he the "leaper controller", G-d, or just a bartender? Is everyone in that room "leapers?" From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 19:59:05 1995 Received: from class.class.org by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA57802; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 19:59:05 -0400 Received: (from sanjocro@localhost) by class.class.org (8.6.10/8.6.6) id QAA24221; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 16:58:33 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 16:58:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeff Crosby <[log in to unmask]> To: SF-LIT <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Sharecropping, Wookiee Books, or whaterver this thread is now. Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I would like to approach this discussion from a new angle. For the record I would note that I am in total agreement with Mike Resnick about the worth of serialized novels of TV series and movies. That said, I should also note that I am a public librarian. I have noticed a number of librarians on the list, usually reflecting academic concerns. I have worked in public libraries for more thant twelve years, both in New York City and in California (where I belong). What I am about to say has been observed on both coasts. Public libraries face a serious problem when maintaining fiction. People use the books as coasters, they take them to the beach, they read them in the tub. In short, library fiction gets stained, burned, chewed (by animals), and Science Fiction seems to be treated worse than most (only Stephen King and V.C. Andrews are destroyed more frequently). This greatly shortens the life expectancy of books. For example: I have replaced Dune twice in the last five years. Paperbacks don't last even half as long as a hard cover, even when we give it a rebinding (the paper is no good). What the propigation of Trek, Luke, Battletech, Robotech, Dragonlance, TSR, Forgotten Realms, etc. has done is squeeze reprints of quality novels right out of the market. Even Heinlein, Asimov, Clarke and Herbert are hard to find, let alone H. Beam Piper, Eric Frank Russell, James Gunn, C.L. Moore, Henry Kuttner or Mike Resnick. I am less concerned about the opportunities for new writers (although I would like to see those increase) than I am the loss of may great writers who have made Science Fiction what it is. As a final note: The Star Trek books circulate vary poorly in my Science Fiction Collection, but when put in the young adult collection with R.L. Stine's Goosebumps and Fear Street they rocket out of the building. Especially that triumph of academia: The Klingon Dictionary! - - - Jeff Crosby E-mail: [log in to unmask] Kings County Library Voice: (209) 582-0261 San Joaquin Valley Library System Fax: (209) 583-6163 - - - From eaj Thu Jun 29 20:10:21 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA52924; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 20:10:21 -0400 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 20:10:21 -0400 (EDT) From: "Eric A. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Literary SF Revisited Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Oh, yeah. I forgot to mention that if you do plan to start bombarding the list with names of SF writers who should be included on the Library of Congress' list, please also write something justifying WHY they should be added to the list. As there are those on this email list who may want to peg me as an SF "snob" (somewhat of an oxymoron as readers of "serious" literature tend to dismiss readers of SF as bottom-feeders--or should that be bottom-readers?), I promise that I will gather the Library's Working Group on Science Fiction Policy (as the 8 SF fen at LC are known) to review any nominations (all the other 7 members of the group are easily less "elitist" than I am). But I should point out that the authors' list will remain biased in favor of those who create literature as opposed to those who make book products. (You may notice some interesting "omissions" on the list like Piers Anthony and several others ...). The second thing to keep in mind is that the list attached to my last message was the "short" list. As the Collections Policy Statement for Fantasy & Science Fiction had to be approved by dozens of the most senior managers at LC, we did not want to present them with a list (or a policy statement) a mile long. We opted instead for the "foot in the door" approach. Also, there are many authors *I* would like to see added to the list--some sooner rather than later. There are some like Sherri Tepper, James Blaylock, or Tim Powers that should be on the list already and might have made it had the list been a little longer. There are others like K.W. Jeter whom I would love to see make the list (but little of his writing has been up to the standards of his own brilliant first novel DR. ADDER and he is now in the business of sharecropping BLADERUNNER novels--#2 will be followed by #3 and so on). And then there are young up-and-coming writers like Nicola Griffith and Jonathan Lethem who I have a feeling will eventually make THE LIST. And there are other writers that I could mention, but I think you get the idea. So, if you are going to send me (or SF-LIT) nominations, please explain why the writer you mention should be on the list. Some writers you name will be obvious oversights--other nominations will take a little--or a lot--of convincing on your part. Thanks in advance for your help. EAJ PS No list is ever going to be perfect and make everyone happy. PPS My real job (when I'm not Recommending Officer for Science Fiction 2-4 hours a week) is acquiring books on exchange from the former Soviet Union (and that takes at least 36-38 hours a week). Anyways ... *-------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Eric A. Johnson | *OPINIONS MINE* | | Senior Exchange Specialist (Baltics & CIS) | | | & Recommending Officer for Science Fiction | Voice: (202) 707-9498 | | Exchange & Gift Division (COLL/E&G/EES) | FAX: (202) 707-2086 | | Library of Congress, LM 632 | Email: [log in to unmask] | | Washington, DC 20540-4240 USA | | *-------------------------------------------------------------------------* "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Philip K. Dick, 1928-1982 From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 20:36:30 1995 Received: from sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA60750; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 20:36:30 -0400 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) with UUCP id KAA25041 for [log in to unmask]; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 10:36:18 +1000 Received: from msmailgw.isc.gov.au by utilities.isc.gov.au; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Oct94-1214PM) id AA19399; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 10:42:10 +1000 Received: by msmailgw with Microsoft Mail id <2FF43336@msmailgw>; Fri, 30 Jun 95 10:24:06 PDT From: "Allen, Grant" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Nothing new under the sun... Date: Fri, 30 Jun 95 10:35:00 PDT Message-Id: <2FF43336@msmailgw> Encoding: 21 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 "Everything that can be invented, has been invented." - Charles H. Duell, Director of U.S. Patent Office, 1899 Ciao Grant :-) ---------- From: sf-lit To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Nothing new under the sun... Date: Thursday, 29 June 1995 20:06 Ecclesiastes did indeed say "There is nothing new under the sun." Also, the US Patent office was closed for a year, circa 1868, because there was nothing left to invent. I suspect neither ever heard of the transistor, the silicon chip, or Glad-Wrap. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 21:09:46 1995 Received: from bos1h.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA90714; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 21:09:46 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 21:09:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 21:09:43 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Pulp books series - good or bad? To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT No, there's no place you can go to find out the sales figures. SF writers have a long history of communicating with each other, over their publisher's protests, and hence we tend to know what each book sold for and how well or poorly it did in the marketplace (or how well or poorly the publisher SAYS it did in the marketplace, which is not always the same thing). -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 21:16:24 1995 Received: from bos1g.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA44001; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 21:16:24 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 21:16:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 21:16:22 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: sex/race/class & who you know To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT There is not a set price on Trekbooks or Wookiebooks. I was offered a ton of money for the Wookie trilogy I turned down; the guy who accepted it was offered a nice wage, but substantially less. Even on junkbooks, names mean -something-. I did a junkbook once, in 1980. Bob Thurston was doing the Battlestar Galactica books, and his wife was dying of cancer, and he couldn't deliver on schedule, so I took him off the hook and did #5. It took 72 hours, I can't remember a thing about it, to this day I've never seen an episode of Battlestar Galactica, and I cringe to tell you that, to date, this piece of crap has sold over half a million copies and gotten me more worshipful fan mail than all my award winners and nominees put together. No, an author who is asked by a publisher to write one or more sequels isn't taking a penny out of anyone else's mouth, or keeping a newcomer off the racks, since that author would have written a book of some sort, even if not a sequel, and would almost certainly have sold it. Mediabooks hurt newcomers who are trying to break in, because they take a huge piece of rackspace that might otherwise have gone to legitimate sf books. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 21:20:58 1995 Received: from bos1g.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA61333; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 21:20:58 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 21:20:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 21:20:55 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Writers and Non-Writing Specialists To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Bruce Byfield> I've not argued with any critical assessments of sf writers here, or suggested that you must be a writer to understand or appreciate the various aspects of science fiction. That would be foolish. What I -have- said is that if you do not work in the field, if you have not seen hundreds of royalty statements from a wide cross-section of writers, if you do not know who gets large advances and who is hanging on by their fingertips, if you have not negotiated contracts, if you have not discussed the effect of mediabooks on the main body of science fiction with the publishers who have the figures, then you are probably not truly competent to make broad pronouncements on how the field works. I'll stand by that. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 21:25:22 1995 Received: from bos1g.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA33127; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 21:25:22 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 21:25:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 21:25:19 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: sex/race/class & who you know To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Andy> Pocket didn't go right from killing Timescape to publishing Trek. There was an intermediary step, in which they tried to turn over their science fiction line to the Scott Meredith Literary Agency. SFWA went to war over it because of the obvious conflict of interest, and Dick Shaeffer killed the sf line completely to punish us. The Trekbooks came along as an afterthought. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 21:32:02 1995 Received: from bos1h.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA21752; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 21:32:02 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 21:32:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 21:32:00 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Trek/Star Wars Books To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Most of the established pros I know wouldn't dream of working as hard on Trekbooks and Wookiebooks as on their own stuff. In fact, most of them view writing this stuff as stealing. I appreciate the fact that you're busy and you're letting me carry the ball...but there's so much misinformation about the way the field works appearing here each day, I can't begin to address it all, and to my knowledge you're the only other regular who can, so why not take a shot at it from time to time? -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 21:56:58 1995 Received: from [204.182.15.10] by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA75653; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 21:56:58 -0400 Received: from B17.Catch22.COM (espana@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by B17.Catch22.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA13001 for <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 19:01:31 -0700 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Url: http://www.Catch22.COM/ X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6 4/21/95 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Nothing new under the sun... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 29 Jun 1995 21:27:05 EDT." <2FF43336@msmailgw> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 19:01:31 -0700 From: Fan Atic <[log in to unmask]> > > "Everything that can be invented, has been invented." > - Charles H. Duell, Director of U.S. Patent Office, 1899 > LOL! Hehehehe.......Thanks for sharing that. I think I just found me my new .sig -- Espana N. Sheriff "Hip-Hop Bishop of Beat! The Cool, [log in to unmask] Gone Daddio of the Deva Dimensions!" http://www.Catch22.COM/~espana -Doom Patrol From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 22:04:22 1995 Received: from mail.crl.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA55572; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 22:04:22 -0400 Received: from crl10.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA15617 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for <[log in to unmask]>); Thu, 29 Jun 1995 19:02:54 -0700 Received: by crl10.crl.com id AA00854 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for [log in to unmask]); Thu, 29 Jun 1995 19:02:54 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 19:02:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Joe DeRouen <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Quantum Leap In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 29 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > Looking for someone who has seen "The Leap Home." > What do you think about the bartender? > Is he the "leaper controller", G-d, or just a bartender? > Is everyone in that room "leapers?" You know, I'm not even sure if Belasario, et al. knew. I hated that episode. Joe From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 22:13:27 1995 Received: from condor.CC.UMontreal.CA by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA88981; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 22:13:27 -0400 Received: from eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA (eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA [132.204.10.20]) by condor.CC.UMontreal.CA with ESMTP id WAA26115 (8.6.11/IDA-1.6 for <[log in to unmask]>); Thu, 29 Jun 1995 22:12:17 -0400 Received: by eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA (950221.405.SGI.8.6.10/5.17) id WAA26381; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 22:12:16 -0400 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 22:12:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]> Reply-To: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Literary SF & LC and talent in SF To: [log in to unmask] In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Thu, 29 Jun 1995, Eric A. Johnson wrote: > that was about four years in the making. Problems remain (like the "small" > problem that LC does not catalog, process, or bind mass market paperbacks) > but at least SF at LC is finally getting somewhere. > And later on: > acquires in hardcover--which saddens me when I think of what SF is NOT > getting cataloged--and because much of this material ends up in what is > called the Copyright Paperback Collection which will be around for a long > while for those who want to study popular fiction published in the 20th > century). So what happens to all those paperbacks? You just shelve them in chronological order of acquisition? How then does someone "study popular fiction"? By grabbing books at random? Do you produce some kind of author or title list which rules prevent you from calling a "catalog" because at LC "to catalog" can only be used when you apply the whole AACR3-LC classification-LC subject headings? Au revoir! PS: please pardon my previous posting on "talent in SF" . I would gladly take it back because it was composed for somebody's private mailbox and I it the reply function by mistake. DE: Alain Vaillancourt [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 22:14:23 1995 Received: from gw2.att.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA100274; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 22:14:23 -0400 Received: from hellas.nw.att.com by ig1.att.att.com id AA15954; Thu, 29 Jun 95 10:01:02 EDT Received: by hellas.nw.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA10889; Thu, 29 Jun 95 09:01:08 CDT Received: by hellas.nw.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA10883; Thu, 29 Jun 95 09:01:05 CDT Date: Thu, 29 Jun 95 09:01:05 CDT From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: One more burning question... > My point is this: When I select a book to read/purchase/borrow, I simply > read the description on the back cover, unless it is a series I'm already > working on. If the description appeals to me that day, I'll buy or borrow > it. If it doesn't, it might another day. > > Anyone else out there have the same feelings on this subject? Any > dissension? Welcome your comments! I used to buy books this way, and there are really only two reasons that I don't today: time and money. My discretionary spending money is way down from what it was, say 10 years ago. Of course, in the intervening years I've gotten married (to an SF&F fan no less), had two children, and bought a house. So how do I decide which books to buy these days? First is author loyalty. There are a few authors whose books I will buy the minute they come out. That's not to say that the author can do no wrong in my eyes. If there is a string of books by an author that I don't care for, I think about waiting until the book comes out in paperback or SF Book Club. And this does happen, as my wife and I have made a conscious decision to move an author out of the 1st hardback edition category down to the "We'll get it in paperback category" just very recently. Second and third, with no particular priority, is purchases due to book reviews (mainly read in Locus) and book descriptions in the SF Book Club. These two methods will tend to get us started on newer authors, or authors we've just never had the time to pick up. And the last main method for deciding which books to buy is the Hugos nominees list. Since we don't get a chance to read a lot of what is out there, there are invariably books that are nominated that I haven't read. And since my wife and I do vote for the Hugos, even when we can't attend WorldCon, as soon as I get the ballot I run out to the local bookstore and pick up what I haven't read or isn't even in the house yet. Some years I've read a few of the nominees, some not. This is another way for us to start reading authors we've never read before. As an aside, I find out more and more that my tastes in SF are really different from those who do manage to read and nominate. Even when I do read enough to nominate, the novels I nominate only occasionally make it to the nominee list. Personal thanks to Mike Resnick for posting the nominees list here several weeks earlier than I got my Hugo ballot. I discovered that while I had two of the nominees in the house, I had read NONE of the five. Since I'm a slower reader, I got a much needed head start. I hope that sheds some light on the issue you raised. Joe Karpierz From cstu Fri Jun 30 07:35:59 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA66681; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 07:35:59 -0400 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 07:35:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Literary SF & LC and talent in SF In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Alain, I will answer this, as I deal with collection more closely than Eric. The Rare Book & Special Collections Division has a collection called the Copyright Paperback Collection, which contains books published originally in paperback. Since such items are not routinely kept at LC, this is the often the only place you will find such works (please notice my hedging, some items do make it into the general collection, just not many). The current estimate at the size of this collection is 70,000 and growing. Most of these items are unprocessed, meaning there is no control or list of items. Roughly 1400 have records on our on-line database and you can find these by searching for the corporate body "Copyright Paperback Collection". The rest are being sorted by publisher and year, placed in boxes and (for now) that is their arrangement. Personally, I hope to someday see at least an author, title, and series list for this collection. Unfortunately, not all the staff here see this collection as being as valuable as I do. Keep in mind, it includes the "worst" of paperback publishing and our collection Specialists do not study popular culture that extensively. But at least the collection exists and is being arranged in some manner. Perhaps in the future, I will be able to seek out grant funds to create a item level guide to this collection (an on-line guide, so it is searchable). That seems a dream right now, but it could happen over time. I want to encourage anyone interested to please use the collection and comment to the Chief of this Division (in writing, please) about it's value and need for a finding aid. Only through the pressure of users can we justify the collection and making it more accessable. Colleen _________________________________________________________________________ Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian [log in to unmask] Library of Congress (202) 707-4132 Washington, DC 20540-4861 FAX: (202) 707-4142 These opinions are mine, Mine MINE! __________________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 30 Jun 1995, Vaillancourt Alain wrote: > > that was about four years in the making. Problems remain (like the "small" > > problem that LC does not catalog, process, or bind mass market paperbacks) > > but at least SF at LC is finally getting somewhere. > > > > And later on: > > > > acquires in hardcover--which saddens me when I think of what SF is NOT > > getting cataloged--and because much of this material ends up in what is > > called the Copyright Paperback Collection which will be around for a long > > while for those who want to study popular fiction published in the 20th > > century). > > So what happens to all those paperbacks? You just shelve them in > chronological order of acquisition? > > How then does someone "study popular fiction"? By grabbing books at random? > > Do you produce some kind of author or title list which rules prevent you > from calling a "catalog" because at LC "to catalog" can only be used when > you apply the whole AACR3-LC classification-LC subject headings? > From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 22:16:14 1995 Received: from owlnet.rice.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA93904; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 22:16:14 -0400 Received: from great-gray.owlnet.rice.edu by owlnet.rice.edu (VAA28665); Thu, 29 Jun 1995 21:16:19 -0500 Received: by great-gray.owlnet.rice.edu (8.6.12/Rice Client-1.0) id VAA21435; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 21:16:12 -0500 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 21:16:12 -0500 (CDT) From: "John J. Ronald" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: SF Academia To: [log in to unmask] Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <9506291935.265DE4@martinw> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 29 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > Istvan Csicsery-Ronay, Jr. ([log in to unmask]) wrote: > > |I guess my question is: are there people lurking out there who would like > |to exchange messages about sf art, scholarship and research, but have felt > |pushed right off the screen by the chatter, or am I just barking up the > |wrong list? Istvan, This list is more specifically (as I understand it) devoted to literary explorations of SF than many other that I am aware of. I have been mass-deleting quite a bit of the chatter lately. It seems to me that well-meaning fans that lack real literary training always seem to clutter up the discussion. For instance, I can understand why an enthusiastic, well-meaning SF fan will argue passionately for the term "Speculative Fiction.", but any of you who are serious professional academic literary critics (like me) should know better. The reason "Speculative Fiction" is unacceptable to me as a term is because I know what other literary critics are going to do to me--namely, eat me alive. "Speculative Fiction", eh? Oooh, let's "speculate" what will happen to Madame Bovary if she commits adultery in 19th century France....(she gets caught, treated as a social outcast, and commits suicide)....how is this any less "Speculative" on the part of Gustav Flaubert, the author? No, my friends, I cannot go in to defend my master's thesis or present conference papers using that term...I'll be roasted alive. It has to be SCIENCE Fiction...For only when I invoke THAT term, and emphasize the important elements of Science & Technology as being legitimate sources for literary discourse do I have any ground to stand on in a Lit.Crit forum. It also intimidates the hell out of other Liberal Arts people who aren't as up on their basic science & technology as they should be (hehehe). A well meaning fan who is untrained in literature will gurgle on and on about the "what if?" function of that drives SF. What they aren't able to see is that this same engine rests in the heart of all literary fiction. "what if" Hamlet is convinced his Father's ghost is telling the truth and acts upon it? No, I'm sorry, but if you broaden the borders of SF to try to encompase too much, the whole genre implodes and is lost (and pushed aside by other academic critics, with a triuphant laugh). Fans who read exclusively science fiction (and nothing else), much less *literary criticism & theory*, suffer from a sort of inbreeding that mutates their ability to critically analyze the text and see connections. As for myself, I was reading up on Theordor Adorno's _Aesthetic Theory_ (Adorno is a critical thinker of the Frankfurt School, BTW) the other night, and had a flash of insight, inserting the term "Science Fiction" into Adorno's paradigm where Adorno himself only speaks of "Art" in general...the result was very illuminating to me indeed. Any serious academic out there who cherishes Science Fiction needs to be aware of the inherent dangers and pitfalls of using the term "Speculative Fiction" in an uncritical manner. To me at least, to use it is to try and stake out an ultimately untenable position in Academia. I feel on much more solid ground when I keep the SCIENCE in SF. It is one thing to talk to other fans about what is really cool stuff that we would all enjoy reading (and thus shouldn't exclude by our nit-picking definitions)...but quite another to get other literary academics to take you seriously. I have to unplug and separate my Fan-Self from my Academic-Self. An aside about the 'Trek books....yeah, some of this stuff is hack writer trash, but I've read some Trek books I really really enjoyed, too...especially John M. Ford's books. I like the vision of the Universe that Roddenbury & all the 'Trek writers present (though I am hesitant to extend the term "literary" to any one particular author in the 'Trek "Canon") and I enjoy reading about it sometimes. But after awhile I get bored of it because I know the limits of those books (No writer can let the Feds & Klingons just slug it out, or upset the fundamental balance of power or what not without OK from higher up...It kind of reminds me of Socialist Realist Fiction that I have read from the GDR...There are a few good stories, but none of them are allowed to violate the paradigms laid out by the communist party or question directly the party line.) I haven't read any of the recent Star Wars books, so I can't really comment on any of them in particular. I do know that Joseph Campbell (one of the world's leading experts on Mythology, who died in 1987) had high praise for George Lucas' rich incorporation of cross-cultural Mythic images and even gave a brief academic interpretation of the original Star Wars print/film text. Thus I think Lucus' original text is worthy of some note, but the others probably pale in comparison. As far as films go, Lucus' earlier _THX-1138_ (sp?) is a much more serious, "artistic" SF film than Star Wars ever was. It was a very clever dysopian piece that pondered the ultimate evils possible in a totalized consumer-capitalist utilitarian world, where religion is reduced to a placebo and if you are feeling bad you just need to take the right psychoactive drugs...As a film I really really really enjoyed it for its artistic merits and contemplation. As a literary academic, I prefer films that really make you THINK, not eye-candy and mindless entertainment (though a little of some of that makes for a fun diversion from the ever so serious real world from time to time). Anyhow, that's my $.02 worth. ---John Ronald Rice University Dept. of German & Slavic Studies From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 22:48:45 1995 Received: from bos1h.delphi.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23382; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 22:48:45 -0400 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #10880) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 22:48:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 22:48:42 -0400 (EDT) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Sharecropping, Wookiee Books, or whaterver this thread is now. To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Re: hard-to-find books. The emergence of the Barnes & Noble, Borders, and Joseph Beth superstores has been a boone for the backlists, since they tend to have 30 times the shelf-space of your typical independent store, or even the average Dalton's or Waldenbooks. A couple of years ago I would be lucky to find 5 or 6 of my titles in a store -- and I'm a reasonably popular and prolific author, not in Piers Anthony's league in either respect, but well above average. This week I made the round of the local superstores and, as always, checked to see how many of my titles they were stocking. Barnes & Noble has 14, Borders 17, Joseph Beth 12, and a Little Professor superstore, 18. And I'm sure every other author is experiencing the same longevity for his titles. It used to be that if you weren't a lead title, with the Whelan cover and the raised metallic type and so forth, your shelf life was perhaps 40 days; now, thanks to the sheer volume of books the superstores have to carry, it's more than 2 years. -- Mike Resnick From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 22:53:05 1995 Received: from gw2.att.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA102341; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 22:53:05 -0400 Received: from hellas.nw.att.com by ig1.att.att.com id AA29137; Thu, 29 Jun 95 11:10:04 EDT Received: by hellas.nw.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA14739; Thu, 29 Jun 95 10:10:09 CDT Received: by hellas.nw.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA14725; Thu, 29 Jun 95 10:10:07 CDT Date: Thu, 29 Jun 95 10:10:07 CDT From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Dune > > I would recommend you find a copy of the "Uncut" version of Dune. It's around > three hours long, but much better than the theatrical release. It still falls > short of the book, (or books, since some of the occurances in the movie happen > in later volumes) but it is much better. IMHO of course. I would tend to agree with you. I have both versions on tape, and haven't watched either of them in a long time. But if I were to watch Dune again, it would be the uncut version. As I understand it, the release of this version angered director David Lynch, so he removed his name from the film. There was also rumored to be a release of an even longer version of the movie, but to my knowledge it never happened. Joe Karpierz From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 23:36:03 1995 Received: from colin.muc.de by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA93748; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 23:36:03 -0400 Received: from uucp-m by colin.muc.de with UUCP id <25579-1>; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 05:35:51 +0200 Received: by uucp-m.muc.de (uzcopy); Fri, 30 Jun 1995 05:39:06 CET Return-Path: [log in to unmask] Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 22:50:00 +0200 From: [log in to unmask] (Timothy Slater) Reply-To: [log in to unmask] X-Mailer: CrossPoint v3.02 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: UK SF sites References: <[log in to unmask]> Organization: Z-Netz Network Area, Germany X-Gateway: NETCALL3.8 UM uucp-m.muc.de [UZERCP V4.52], ZCONNECT UM uucp-m.muc.de [CONNECT*UZERCP V0.94] Content-Length: 761 Lines: 17 25.06.95 / 25 Jun 95 I know I have read several stories set (at least partly) in Scotland. And in the first section, "Piper at the Gates of Dawn" (a marvelous piece, a lot better than the rest of the book), of Richard Cowper's "The Road to Corlay", the characters cross the Pennines through Wensleydale, and then go to York, stopping at locatable places. -- Tim Slater, B.A. (Nat. Sci.), MITI [log in to unmask] CIS: 1000024,2546 Eglinger Str. 15A, D-82544 Egling-Moosham, GERMANY _____ __ phone: +49-8176-1393 fax: -1722 | |__ Oeffentlich bestellter und allgemein beeidigter | RAN __| LATER Dolmetscher und Uebersetzer fuer die englische Sprache ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## From [log in to unmask] Thu Jun 29 23:45:27 1995 Received: from DEPAUW.EDU by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA60871; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 23:45:27 -0400 Received: from DEPAUW.EDU by DEPAUW.EDU (PMDF V4.3-10 #9248) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 22:44:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 22:44:36 -0500 (EST) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Literary SF & LC To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" X-Vms-Cc: ICRONAY Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT It's great that the LoC is now taking sf seriously. I hope that many of the best, but out of print, classics of sf are still available. But I suppose the LoC is a juggernaut when it puts its big buraucratic mind to it. One thing I notice on Eric's doubtless very prelimiary list is that it is biased not to Anglophone, but to US writing. I am not a Brit; I was born in the USA, and for much of my life I had little use for stuffy old England. Sympathized with the oppressed Celts, etc. But in the past few years it has become painfully clear to me that British sf has been mercilessly ignored by the US market forces and even critics. There are a few Brit names on Eric's list, but very few. This is a complex business. I turned to British sf when I got bored -- very bored -- with US sf, when even the most adventurous post-cyberpunk piece seemed like it was secretly angling for a movie option. Post- New Wave British sf seemed (not always of course) to be much more geared to an intelligent, literate, _reading_ public, I suppose because a British writer doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of being even read in the US, let alone picked up for a Hollywood movie. My enjoyment of even US sf, especially classic stuff that I was bored to tears with, was increased when I saw the field through another perspective -- I'm thinking of Christopher Priest, Keith Roberts, Gwyneth Jones, early Bob Shaw, Charles Platt's porno-sf masterpiece _The Gas_; I'll add Northern Irishman Ian MacDonald, the Scot-punks, and maybe even Aussie Greg Egan, who is much more readily available in the UK than here. I am not otherwise a fan of things British, but I think this is important. Even Geoff Ryman, who is relatively available here, really found his voice in England. So what gives? Andy Sawyet and Andy Butler will be able to justify these folks to US readers better than I can. In moments of missionary zeal (I guess this is one) I just wish US sf readers would pile some Brit books in a wheelbarrow and see what sf can be like in alternate universe that has no Wookiebooks. (It does have Dr. Who, though, which is a severe problem.) Case in point: Andy Butler brought up Jeff Noon's _Vurt_ in his last post. His summary was masterful. I know _Vurt_ is available in hardback in the States. _Vurt_ has much of the same seat-of-the-pants, delirious visionary quality that _Neuromancer_ had -- Noon is/was a young writer making it up as he goes along. It's an ecstatically weird universe (there are five categories of beings: vurts (virtual-reality beings), humans, dogs, robos, and shadows -- given the primal power of sex, these occasionally intermingle, creating a whole system of mixed-beings: robodogs, shadow-vurts, doghumans, und so weiter. The governing mores are captured in a grafitto that appears now and then: "Pure is Poor." Cyborg theory with a vengeance.) But the thing that makes _Vurt_ so good is the poetry -- Manchester post-punk acid-dub poetry without any attempt to appear hip. It's not even sf according to most of the definitions I've seen on this list, since the way the virtual-reality trips work is simply surreal (you tickle your mouth with a vurt feather). There's no science to speak of, since for a post-punk poet science is just a kind of white voodoo anyway. It IS sf, though, for a sf reader because you know that sf created the virtual universe; the Thing-from-Outer-Space, one of the most endearing aliens in sf, the Alien crossed with ET, is just there to let you know that this is sf. Obviously I'm infatuated with British sf at the moment (check out Gwyneth Jones's _White Queen_ and _North Wind_, which for all their romance titles are tough and sad). But even if I'm over-enthusiastic at the moment, I think all US readers who like challenging reads should pay more attention to post-New Wave British sf. Maybe the Brits on the list could comment? Istvan From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 00:53:30 1995 Received: from UWSTOUT.EDU by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA66628; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 00:53:30 -0400 Received: from UWSTOUT.EDU by UWSTOUT.EDU (PMDF V4.3-7 #4883) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 23:53:48 CST Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 23:53:48 -0600 (CST) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF Academia (was Written vs. Films) To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The International Association for the Fantastic in the Arts has a list which has published some interesting scholarly discussion. It tends to function rather fitfully though. Supposedly the IAFA and the Science Fiction Research Association are in the process of setting up a joing WWW page. Michael Levy [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 00:58:48 1995 Received: from UWSTOUT.EDU by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA93823; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 00:58:48 -0400 Received: from UWSTOUT.EDU by UWSTOUT.EDU (PMDF V4.3-7 #4883) id <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 29 Jun 1995 23:59:08 CST Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 23:59:08 -0600 (CST) From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Literary SF & LC To: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT To Eric Johnson: One writer that I'd like to strongly recommend that you add to your list is Eleanor Arnason, author of A Woman of the Iron People and Ring of Swords. The former novel won the Tiptree Award two years ago and the latter was a runnerup for 1994. For further recommendations see my article and bibliography on modern sf in the new, 4th edition of Neil Barron's Anatomy of Wonder. Mike Levy From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 01:11:57 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA83766; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 01:11:57 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA06547; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 00:11:26 -0500 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 00:11:57 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: written vs. films (fwd from moderator) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950630000836.22490D-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII re: war and living sf Hmm, how do you 'live' sf? I understand you can live it, as in your life revolves around you being an sf writer. Some of it is impossible to live though, with our technology level. Some astronauts and scientists may well come closer to this than writers, perhaps? Or someone trying something like Marshall Savage with his Millenial Project. Very hard to write what you know about stuff that you can't experience. Would a war historian be any better or worse off than an SF writer who has never been in a lab, space shuttle, or whatever? Depending on what type of writing you are doing, of course. AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 01:33:38 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA78124; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 01:33:38 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA07514; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 00:33:15 -0500 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 00:33:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: "Talent" in SF In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950630002907.22490H-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 29 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote: > Richard, if only talent gets published, please explain Lionel Fanthorpe. Or > any of dozens of others I could mention. This was my point, George. i.e. if Publishers want to publish the best stuff then it is fairly obvious that this is not always the case. Andy Wheeler explained it pretty well. Money talks, unfortunately. A pleasant stroll down the pathway > of near-illiteracy is Neil Gaiman's (and somebody else) GHASTLY BEYOND > BELIEF, which is a compendium of spectaculary bad paragraphs from genuine > fantasy and SF books. Some of these were written by authors who were > writing at the top of their form (but they were incompetent to begin with), > some by average writers who now and then mess up in print, and some by SF > stars such as Isaac Asimov. That's a wonderful book to search out from a > used bookstore or dealer. Never heard of that, sounds great! I've seen a book or two with deliberately turgid/bad intros all compiled, but a 'blooper' book as such would be a fun thing to have. Even great writers are bound to mess up occasionally, much like chess grandmasters will leave a piece en prise on the odd occasion. > > The first thing I did when I got the book was check to see if anything of > mine was quoted. Thank God, no (although some of my stuff could've been). > > (signed) "Moderately Literate in New Orleans" > So, which other Moderately Literate types made it, if your humble personage didn't? :-) Mr. Asimov you already mentioned. Good for Neil Gaiman. From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 01:37:59 1995 Received: from mail.coin.missouri.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA60756; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 01:37:59 -0400 Received: from bigcat by mail (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA07762; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 00:37:35 -0500 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 00:38:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> X-Sender: rscott@bigcat To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Sharecropping, Wookiee Books, or whaterver this thread is now. In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950630003628.22490J-100000@bigcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Another triumph of academia I noticed at Waldenbooks, even surpassing the Klingon Dictionary, was the Ferengi _Rules of Acquisition_, including space to write your own! The economics of Trek books is now becoming fixated on itself, like the media talking about advertising on news programs. Well, so called news. AussieVamp Richard Scott ([log in to unmask]) Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time.. --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 03:07:08 1995 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA83880; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 03:07:08 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA080666027; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 03:07:08 -0400 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 03:07:08 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Quantum Leap I prefer not to believe in god, but he was certainly a representation of the controlling entity/force behind the leaps that were going on. I think the key to the whole thing lay in what he said about Sam having been able to return home whenever he wanted. Sam never wanted to go home, he was simply too unselfish. He would give anything to help someone, anyone who needed it. I hate that episode, it leaves me unsatisfied. Sam deserved to leap home. Sam wanted to leap home, but there was always something keeping him one step away. Well life ain't fair, but I was hoping that we could fantasize it was, especially in this case. Take care -Alexander From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 04:59:48 1995 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA62690; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 04:59:48 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA289602788; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 04:59:48 -0400 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 04:59:48 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy >>>[log in to unmask] said >>>"To me, Star Trek is the quintessential SF." >>Unfortunately that seems to be a common view. >>Trek is SF, SF is Trek. You ask someone if they like SF and they >>say "no, I don't like Trek" ! >> >>Trek may not be fantasy but it's not hard SF either. I'd call it >>soft SF with poor science (spot that technobabble) and little >>internal consistency. >> >>Ruth Ballam, > >I agree with your definition of trek, Ruth. What do think of it's portrayal >of the future as some sort of homogenous, harmonious, bland universe? > >Grant Some of that homogenity (a product of G. Roddenbery) was thrown out the window with the introduction of "Deep Space Nine" and "Voyager." More interesting villains, more confrontational subject matter, etc. "ST:Next Generation" evolved away from the original series's harmonies as it went on. Sane Federation crewmembers were seen to disagree, even argue, something unimaginable on the original Enterprise (unless used as a plot device, e.g. starship captain goes insane and attempts to take over world/Enterprise/etc). And yet, the ST universe has always fallen short of expectation when it comes to meatier, disharmonious storylines. The Borg, for example, were the most imaginative (and dare I say it, *cool*) villian-groups to come along in ST in a very long time... but they were eventually watered down. The Ferengi were originally set up on ST:NG to be the "next" villian race, but they became strictly comic relief (at least until the more recent DS9). Perhaps the basis for that blandness lies in the fact that ST is a (albeit colorful) two-dimensional reality mascarading as an infinite universe. We're still dealing with 1-hour (give or take commercials) morality plays, which require simple and simplistic ideas, despite any technobabble frosting. (Not to denegrate Trek *too* much; I've been a Trekker since I saw my first episode of the original series way back when.) ST is a populist phenonmenon ultimately controlled by people who worry about offending some mythical creature called a Midwesterner ;-). And as such, the middle of the road is the safest route to be driving, even for a starship. But even so, the ST universe, in all its media, continues to metamorphose like the changing U.S. society generally. Call it desensitization, call it honesty, the country is pretty weirded out nowadays, even more so than usual, and ST has evolved to reflect it. As I've grew up and grew away from fanaticism regarding ST, I ceased to get so worked up over such minutia as inconsistencies, anachronisms, and blandness. In a sense, I stopped expecting so much out of the ST universe. And when that happened, the blandness just didn't matter that much anymore. Robert Daeley Redlands, CA [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 04:59:51 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23026; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 04:59:51 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA293242599; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 04:56:39 -0400 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 04:56:39 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: humorous books The Retief series would be good as well. Robert Daeley Redlands,CA [log in to unmask] ----------------- The terrorist and the policeman both come from the same basket. - Joseph Conrad, _Secret Agent_ From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 05:40:51 1995 Received: from ifi.uio.no by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23007; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 05:40:51 -0400 Received: from maud.ifi.uio.no ([log in to unmask] [129.240.74.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id <[log in to unmask]> ; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 11:33:58 +0200 Received: (from haavardf@localhost) by maud.ifi.uio.no ; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 11:33:57 +0200 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 11:33:57 +0200 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> From: H}vard Fosseng <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Nothing new under the sun... In-Reply-To: <2FF43336@msmailgw> References: <2FF43336@msmailgw> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Description: A MIME message created by the VM mailer. Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike Resnick: > Ecclesiastes did indeed say "There is nothing new under the sun." > Also, the US Patent office was closed for a year, circa 1868, > because there was nothing left to invent. I suspect neither ever > heard of the transistor, the silicon chip, or Glad-Wrap. Grant Allen: > "Everything that can be invented, has been invented." > - Charles H. Duell, Director of U.S. Patent Office, 1899 When this was brought up on alt.quotations some time ago, the following was posted: > From: [log in to unmask] (Mark Brader) > Date: Thu, 2 Dec 93 23:02:00 GMT Mark Brader was in turn quoting someone else: > From: [log in to unmask] (William Jacobs) > Subject: Patent office UL > Date: 25 Jun 1993 00:05:48 GMT > > At AFU West VI Bob O'Bob asked about the legend that an official of > the U.S. Patent Office had resigned believing that everything had > been invented. Another AFU'er (whom I don't recall) and I got into a > match of dueling references. Here's mine: Skeptical Inquirer Vol. 13 > Spring 1989. > > A Patently False Patent Myth by Samuel Sass > > "For more than a century there has periodically appeared in print > the story about an official of the U.S. Patent Office who resigned > his post because he believed that all possible inventions had > already been invented. Some years ago, before I retired as librarian > of a General Electric Company division, I was asked by a skeptical > scientist to find out what there was to this recurring tale. My > research proved to be easier than I had expected. I found that this > matter had been investigated as a project of the D.C. Historical > Records Survey under the Works Projects Administration. The > investigator, Dr. Eber Jeffery, published his findings in the July > 1940 Journal of the Patent Office Society. > Jeffery found no evidence that any official or employee of the > U.S. Patent Office had ever resigned because he thought there was > nothing left to invent. However, Jeffery may have found a clue to > the origin of the myth. In his 1843 report to Congress, the then > commissioner of the Patent Office, Henry L. Ellsworth, included the > following comment: "The advancement of the arts, from year to year, > taxes our credulity and seems to presage the arrival of that period > when human improvement must end." As Jeffery shows, it's evident > from the rest of that report that Commissioner Ellsworth was simply > using a bit of rhetorical flourish to emphasize that the number of > patents was growing at a great rate. Far from considering inventions > at an end, he outlined areas in which he expected patent activity to > increase, and it is clear that he was making plans for the future." > > Sass mentions another atribution of the quote to Commissioner of the U.S. > Patent Office Charles H. Duell, who didn't say it either. H=E5vard Fosseng S'il fallait tol=E9rer aux autres tout ce qu'on se= permet =E1 Informatics soi-m=EAme, la vie ne serait plus tenable. University of Oslo -- Georges Courteline [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 05:52:09 1995 Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA49833; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 05:52:09 -0400 Received: from uxa.liv.ac.uk by mail.liv.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Fri, 30 Jun 1995 10:50:38 +0100 From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <199506300950.KAA029[log in to unmask]> Subject: HOME PAGE To: [log in to unmask] Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 10:50:34 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 579 Thank you to everyone who took the trouble to help me out on this one. I have amended my signature file, which was part of the problem, and reported the result of my "survey" to our computer people to see what they can do about the rest of it. best wishes -- Andy Sawyer, Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK 0151-794-2733/2696 [log in to unmask] http://www.liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html "Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 06:32:22 1995 Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23530; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 06:32:22 -0400 Received: from uxa.liv.ac.uk by mail.liv.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Fri, 30 Jun 1995 11:31:41 +0100 From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: 19th Century SF, SF/F definitions, SF Thesaurus & SF Movies To: [log in to unmask] Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 11:31:30 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Garry Wyatt" at Jun 29, 95 12:41:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 3518 In the last mail Garry Wyatt said: > > > > SF Thesaurus: We're very keen to see the 40 page version of Cameron's > system, decribed in a previous message from Michael Bowman, and put it to > work. Gayle Lovett's The Four-Part Trilogy (a checklist of series and > sequels in science fiction, fantasy and horror. ISBN 0-646-21164-1) is > already in database form (We use Microsoft Access 2.0) and we'd like to > incorporate the classification system into the database. I should explain > that the Sirius team consists of Gayle Lovett (librarian and bookseller), > Robyn-Cecilia Grieve (IT professional), Christine Arthur (librarian), and > myself (IT professional) - and we're all technophiles/software & database > junkies. Graham Stone (see above) and Colin Steele (University Librarian, > Australian National University) are our sources of inspiration and > contribute regular columns to Sirius. Do keep us posted on this. i think there is a lot of duplicated work going on in this field and it would make sense if some of us didn't have to reinvent the wheel. I'd certainly appreciate knowing more about what you are doing. > > > Discussion point: What constitutes modern fantasy? I've always suspected > that a modern-day form of fantasy is lurking out there somewhere without the > need of quasi-medieval settings and the obligatory dragon (who's really just > misunderstood...) At Sirius we've speculated on 'intrusive fantasy' (if this > term hasn't surfaced before it belongs to Christine Arthur...) on how > elements of fantasy impact on or can be part of the modern-day world - > Stalking the Unicorn by SF-LIT's own Mike Resnick is sort of heading in the > general direction but it's not quite there - a unicorn was still needed... > Robert Jordan (of Wheel of Time fame) felt that the closest thing to modern > fantasy at the moment is the modern horror genre. I can see the argument, > but it doesn't really satisfy me. > Garry Wyatt, Editor > Sirius: The Australian magazine for readers of science fiction, fantasy and > the macabre I suspect that modern fantasy has its roots in other areas than Tolkien and quasi-medievalism. For example Jorge Luis Borges and Latin American "Magic realism", Kafka, ER Eddison (quasi-mediaeval, or rather renaissance, but very different from most others in that category, Mervyn Peake, etc.) This is all coming together mixed with science fiction in various forms: ie Mary gentle's "Rats and gargoyles", etc. take a lot from Renaissance hermeticism. For other elements of the Fantastic, try James Morrow or Jonathan Carroll as examples of people who are writing neither orthodox science fiction nor genre fantasy with elves and dragons. In the May New York Review of Science Fiction, Damien Broderick has an article about what he calls "Transrealism" (following Rudy Rucker, who he says coined the term in 1983) as a way of describing a lot of modern writing. "It is equally true that the transrealist writes about the fantastic, the invented, the inverted, the dementedly shocking . . . " he does quote from a number of horror fictions, but also from, for example the later writings of Philip K Dick - another fine example of the mode. -- Andy Sawyer, Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK 0151-794-2733/2696 [log in to unmask] http://www.liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html "Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 06:45:41 1995 Received: from ns.cityscape.co.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA78184; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 06:45:41 -0400 Received: from cityscape.co.uk (ac129.du.pipex.com [193.130.242.129]) by ns.cityscape.co.uk (8.6.4/8.6.4) with SMTP id LAA02730 for <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 11:43:55 +0100 To: [log in to unmask] From: [log in to unmask] (Chris Terran) Subject: Re: SF Academia (was Written vs. Films) Reply-To: [log in to unmask] References: <9506291935.265DE4@martinw> In-Reply-To: <9506291935.265DE4@martinw> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 11:39:03 +0100 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Organization: BSFA X-Mailer: Archimedes TTFN Version 0.36 In message <9506291935.265DE4@martinw> Martin S. Won wrote: > When I recently went looking for academic SF journals and found only > two (those I mention above) [SCIENCE-FICTION STUDIES and EXTRAPOLATIONS], > I had hoped that I could find some other scholarly discussion of SF on > the Net. I would welcome any information you have on any other lists > that are focused on SF study. I'm sure Andy Sawyer will supply the details, but _Foundation: The Review of Science Fiction_ is the UK's leading critical sf journal, and is well worth a look. Regarding sf mailing lists, there's one which is meant to be for UK sf studies, though it seems extremely quiet at the moment. Send a message to [log in to unmask] with the body containing only the text: SUBSCRIBE UK-SF-BOOKS your-name Best Chris -- Chris Terran ******************************************* Email: [log in to unmask] * Editor, 'Matrix' - The news magazine of * Voice: 0113 278 2388 * The British Science Fiction Association * Opinions mine ... mine, all mine! ******************************************* From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 07:11:08 1995 Received: from coral.bucknell.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA11114; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 07:11:08 -0400 Received: from fwilson.bucknell.edu by coral.bucknell.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/29Aug94-0956AM) id AA05141; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 07:11:04 -0400 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 07:11:04 -0400 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> From: [log in to unmask] (Frank Wilson) X-Sender: [log in to unmask] (Unverified) Subject: New sf discussion List: LARRYNIVEN-L ANNOUNCING a Listserver based Internet discussion forum: ***************** LARRYNIVEN-L ***************** The aim of this List is to provide a forum for the discussion of the works of Larry Niven, and to encourage both the reading of Niven's works and the development of informed literary, critical, and even scholarly responses to Niven's writings and ideas. This List discussion group is a special purpose List, not intended to compete with or exclude any of the other Lists or Newsgroups dealing with science fiction or to monopolize discussion pertaining to Larry Niven's writings. It is however intended to be a more focussed discussion of Niven's work than is found on such UseNet newsgroups as rec.arts.sf.written or such other Listserver groups as sf-lit or sf-lover's digest, etc. My own primary rationale for creating this List is my perception of Niven's works as possessing an inherently philosophical dimension and an interest, as a professional philosopher and student of literature, in exploring further the implications of such a viewpoint on his works. However, the acceptance of such an interpretive perspective on Niven's works is by no means a precondition for participation in the List discussion, and I advocate a broad and pluralistic approach to the discussion of both literature and philosophy. The list is open to anyone, from any discipline, with a serious interest in this area of study. TO SUBSCRIBE: send a message to the following address: [log in to unmask] containing in the body of the message the subscription line: SUB LARRYNIVEN-L <Yourfirstname Yourlastname> For example: SUB LARRYNIVEN-L Jerry Pournelle When you subscribe you will automatically receive explanatory information both about the group and about the "listserv" mechanisms you will use to communicate with the other members of the group. The Owner and Manager of the List is: Frank Wilson, Department of Philosophy, Bucknell University, Lewisburg, Pennsylvania, 17837; (717) 524-3461 [log in to unmask] . ****************************************************************************** Frank Wilson List Manager Department of Philosophy LOGIC-L Bucknell University KANT-L Lewisburg, PA 17837 HEGEL-L [log in to unmask] **************************************************************************** ** From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 07:12:18 1995 Received: from mailhost.pipex.net by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA47267; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 07:12:18 -0400 Received: from ns.cityscape.co.uk by pipe.pipex.net with SMTP (PP); Fri, 30 Jun 1995 11:46:45 +0100 Received: from cityscape.co.uk (ac129.du.pipex.com [193.130.242.129]) by ns.cityscape.co.uk (8.6.4/8.6.4) with SMTP id LAA02718 for <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 11:43:51 +0100 To: [log in to unmask] From: [log in to unmask] (Chris Terran) Subject: Re: Literary SF & LC Reply-To: [log in to unmask] References: <[log in to unmask]> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 10:51:26 +0100 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Organization: BSFA X-Mailer: Archimedes TTFN Version 0.36 Re Eric A. Johnson's Library of Congress collecting list: Some interesting omissions in the LoC list, at least as seen from a UK perspective. Here are some names that instantly occurred to me, bearing in mind the criteria of multiple awards and / or distinction within the field: Iain (M.) Banks Both literary and high sf. Stephen Baxter Greg Egan Robert Holdstock Paul J. McAuley Ian McDonald Michael Moorcock Certainly influential, and he's made a significant mainstream impact. Terry Pratchett Achieves the remarkable synthesis of being popular _and_ critically admired. Christopher Priest Keith Roberts Geoff Ryman This omission was certainly surprising. Bob Shaw Brian Stableford Disregarding the 'entertainments' he wrote for Ace and others, he perhaps deserves to be in for the novel sequence _The Werewolves of London_, _The Angel of Pain_ and _The Carnival of Destruction_ (highly admired scientific romances of a metaphysical bent), and his critical writing. Ian Watson A true maverick; easy to admire, hard to love. But surely deserving of a place. (Better stop here; keep thinking of more.) Some of the inclusions strike me as a little strange, especially given the omissions. Such writers as Andre Norton, David Gerrold, Charles Sheffield, Murray Leinster, Lester del Rey, Dean Koontz (good grief) and Gordon R. Dickson do not seem to me to have any particular importance in the field, or, in my opinion, much literary merit (though I realise this may be arguable for one or two works). The factor in common there seems to be either longevity or productivity. Best Chris -- Chris Terran ******************************************* Email: [log in to unmask] * Editor, 'Matrix' - The news magazine of * Voice: 0113 278 2388 * The British Science Fiction Association * Opinions mine ... mine, all mine! ******************************************* From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 07:35:22 1995 Received: from adam.csd.unbsj.ca by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA82505; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 07:35:22 -0400 Received: from admin1.csd.unbsj.ca ([138.119.1.252]) by UnbSJ.CA (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA28882; Fri, 30 Jun 95 08:35:50 ADT Received: from ADMIN1/ADMIN_MAILER by admin1.csd.unbsj.ca (Mercury 1.21); 30 Jun 95 08:35:18 GMT-4 Received: from ADMIN_MAILER by ADMIN1 (Mercury 1.21); 30 Jun 95 08:35:01 GMT-4 From: "DENNIS ABBLITT UNBSJ" <[log in to unmask]> Organization: UNB Saint John To: [log in to unmask] Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 08:34:55 ADT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: SF Academia Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Hi Martin! You missed Foundation and Journal of the Fantastic in the Arts off your list of academic SF journals, although I have not received a copy of Foundation since 1992 (maybe A. Sawyer can explain this). Also HIT, the Highly Imaginative Technical Science Fiction group still manages to struggle on on the net after some years! This group is probably the most academic sf group that I know although it has a somewhat scientific bias. Dennis.---------------------------------------------------------------------- DENNIS ABBLITT ASSISTANT LIBRARIAN (also CURATOR F AND SF COLLECTION) WARD CHIPMAN LIBRARY UNIVERSITY OF NEW BRUNSWICK P.O.BOX 5050, SAINT JOHN NEW BRUNSWICK, CANADA E2L 4L5 E-MAIL: [log in to unmask] FAX: 506 648 5701 From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 08:21:53 1995 Received: from adam.csd.unbsj.ca by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23692; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 08:21:53 -0400 Received: from admin1.csd.unbsj.ca ([138.119.1.252]) by UnbSJ.CA (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29105; Fri, 30 Jun 95 09:22:21 ADT Received: from ADMIN1/ADMIN_MAILER by admin1.csd.unbsj.ca (Mercury 1.21); 30 Jun 95 09:21:51 GMT-4 Received: from ADMIN_MAILER by ADMIN1 (Mercury 1.21); 30 Jun 95 09:21:34 GMT-4 From: "DENNIS ABBLITT UNBSJ" <[log in to unmask]> Organization: UNB Saint John To: [log in to unmask] Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 09:21:24 ADT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: sflibraries,catalogues,binding and other stuff Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Greetings! I have noticed a number of messages on sf libraries /cataloguing etc. Our collection started in 1967 when I started employment here. It now consists of some 30,000 monographs and probably the same number of issues of fanzines magazines and journals. These are all catalogued and mostly borrowable. I have copies somewhere of Alastair Cameron's classification as well as one by I think Fred Lerner (at least I remember Fred giving me something around 1970. We decided not to use these as we use LC. Instead we took PZ, which was empty for us at the time and devised a whole SF and Fantasy classification within it's parameters. Further more we Plastic bind all of the paperbacks (well at least up until 12 months ago) Now, the budget as with everyone else is a problem; so binding tends to be delayed. Our annual Sf budget is only $7,500 and we have had two SHHRC grants totalling $28,000 over the years. We are also an SFWA depository. However, we have a new chief starting next week and she may cut or eliminate the budget; so keep your fingures crossed. If anyone found anything useful out of this and needs more info let me know. Dennis. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DENNIS ABBLITT ASSISTANT LIBRARIAN (also CURATOR F AND SF COLLECTION) WARD CHIPMAN LIBRARY UNIVERSITY OF NEW BRUNSWICK P.O.BOX 5050, SAINT JOHN NEW BRUNSWICK, CANADA E2L 4L5 E-MAIL: [log in to unmask] FAX: 506 648 5701 From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 08:46:04 1995 Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA84187; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 08:46:04 -0400 Received: from uxa.liv.ac.uk by mail.liv.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Fri, 30 Jun 1995 13:45:30 +0100 From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: SF Studies To: [log in to unmask] Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 13:45:27 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "[log in to unmask]" at Jun 29, 95 02:55:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2702 In the last mail [log in to unmask] said: > > Andy Sawyer is seducing me to reveal the contents of the latest issue > of _Science-Fiction Studies_. Resistance appears to be futile (and the > issue is almost out, if not already on your local Laputan newsstand). > Here's the T of c: Well, I started this. You showed us yours, I'll show you ours. The contents of the forthcoming FOUNDATION: THE REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION (no. 63, available real soon now) are as follows (and I really enjoyed reading your account of VF 95, which made it sound just like VF 94 except more so!): Editorial Edward James Features Amanda Boulter - Alice James Raccooona Sheldon Jr: Textual Personas in the short Fiction of Alice Sheldon John Moore - An Archaeology of the Future: Ursula leGuin and Anarcho- Primitivism K.V. Bailey - Spindley Mazes, dead Men and Doppels: Fred Pohl's Gateway Creations Stephen Baxter - The Profession of Science Fiction, 47: Inspiration and Research Catherine Mintz: Poetry, Poets and the rest of the World: An Interview with Steve Sneyd Pedro Gallard0-Torrano: Frankenstein's French Counterpart: Villiers de l'Isle-Adam's L'Eve Future Vlado Srpon: Dr Gustav Mauricus Reuss: The First Slovak Literary Fantasist Letter David A Drake - On Adolescent readers of SF Review Article Gwyneth Jones: The Brains of Female Hyena Twins: On the Future of Gender Reviews Gwyneth Jones - Sideshow, Plague of Angels, and Shadow's End by Sheri S Tepper Neal Tringham - Lucky's Harvest, The fallen Moon and The Coming of Vertumnus by Ian Watson Mavis Haut - Calenture by Storm Constantine Andy Sawyer - Romanian SF Anthology: Nemira 94 edited by Romulus Barbulescu and Georg Anania Andrew M Butler - Science Fiction and fantasy Literature 1975 - 1991 by Robert Reginald K.V. Bailey - The Unusual Life of Tristan Smith by Peter Carey and temporary Agency by Rachel Pollack Jack Cohen - feersum Endjinn by Iain M Banks Paul J McAuley - Voices of the Light by Sean McMullen Brian Stableford - The Narber of Aldebaran by William Moy Russell Chris Gilmore - A Tupelov Too Far and Somewhere East of Life by Brian Aldiss Jennifer Swift - A Bridge of years by Robert Charles Wilson Edward James - Fantasy, the Bomb and the Greening of Britain by Meredith Veldman Anyone interested in subscribing (well, you never know!) can contact me and I'll let you have details of rates, etc -- Andy Sawyer, Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK 0151-794-2733/2696 [log in to unmask] http://www.liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html "Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) From cstu Fri Jun 30 11:39:10 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA38848; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 11:39:10 -0400 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 11:39:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: sequel to Wind in the Willows (fwd by moderator) Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: sequel to Wind in the Willows (was Metamorphosis) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 14:03:27 +0100 (BST) In the last mail [log in to unmask] said: > > friend, Valerie Martin. It's DR. JEKYLL AND MR. HYDE told from the point of > view of one of the doctor's servants. It's being made into a major motion > picture. The other is a sequel to WIND IN THE WILLOWS, and I don't have the > book handy to mention title and author. It, also, is excellent. Valerie > has always been an extremely intelligent and fine writer; the WIND sequel > surprised me. > I'd be interested to know which it is if you remember: there are at least two sequels I know to WITW, one a very amusing story by Jan Needle which takes the viewpoint of the Weasels and Stoats of the Wild Wood (I think the book is called WILD WOOD) as representatives of the people whose labours allow Badger, Toad and Ratty (alias the English Gentry) to live their privileged lives. -- Andy Sawyer, Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK 0151-794-2733/2696 [log in to unmask] http://www.liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html "Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 09:08:50 1995 Received: from cunyvm.cuny.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA44313; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 09:08:50 -0400 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Received: from CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4285; Fri, 30 Jun 95 09:07:40 EDT Received: from WAYNEST1 (NJE origin DKUIPER@WAYNEST1) by CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1120; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 09:08:15 -0400 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 95 08:57:30 EDT From: Doug Kuiper <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Nothing new under the sun... To: [log in to unmask] Many thanks for the corrections of my misquotation. I think though, that my point is being misunderstood. I used the quotation in reply to a post (I won't guess at the author, I'd probably say Shakespeare ;)) which appeared to say that Fantasy relied on themes from history, mythology, legend, etc. I believe this to be true. I also believe it is true for all literature, including SF. For example, the recent post noting _Vurt_ as a retelling of the Orpheus myth. Or Mary Shelley's _Frankenstein_ as a modern retelling of the Prometheus myth. I'm not saying that original characters, styles, or ideas are impossible. What I would argue, is that there are a limited number of themes which all books can be broadly classified under. The skill with which an author operates under these themes has, IMHO, much more to do with whether a work is literary than the writing of a story which has a theme or plot no one has ever thought of before. -doug [log in to unmask] From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 09:18:02 1995 Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA82222; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 09:18:02 -0400 Received: from uxa.liv.ac.uk by mail.liv.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Fri, 30 Jun 1995 14:17:31 +0100 From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: SF Academia (was Written vs. Films) To: [log in to unmask] Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 14:17:29 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "[log in to unmask]" at Jun 30, 95 08:12:17 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 593 In the last mail [log in to unmask] said: > > The International Association for the Fantastic in the Arts has a list > which has published some interesting scholarly discussion. It tends to > function rather fitfully though. > Do you have an address for this?> Thanks -- Andy Sawyer, Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK 0151-794-2733/2696 [log in to unmask] http://www.liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html "Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 09:35:21 1995 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA48539; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 09:35:21 -0400 Received: from msmgate1.open.ac.uk by venus.open.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) id <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 14:35:05 +0100 Received: by msmgate2.open.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 30 Jun 95 14:35:01 BST From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]> To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Dune Date: Fri, 30 Jun 95 14:31:00 BST Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Encoding: 33 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Joe Karpierz: From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 10:12:31 1995 Received: from mail.liv.ac.uk by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA44399; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 10:12:31 -0400 Received: from uxa.liv.ac.uk by mail.liv.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Fri, 30 Jun 1995 15:12:05 +0100 From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Literary SF & LC To: [log in to unmask] Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 15:11:48 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "[log in to unmask]" at Jun 30, 95 08:06:04 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 8083 First, to save everyone's mailbox, thanks to Colleen and Eric for their accounts of their jobs, which I have not actually read properly yet (this will be my last mailing of the day as I have a lot of work to catch up on) but will read later on. In the last mail [log in to unmask] said: > > One thing I notice on Eric's doubtless very prelimiary list is that it > is biased not to Anglophone, but to US writing. I am not a Brit; I > was born in the USA, and for much of my life I had little use for > stuffy old England. Sympathized with the oppressed Celts, etc. That's OK. So do we all. Down with the South and the Norman Yoke! But > in the past few years it has become painfully clear to me that British > sf has been mercilessly ignored by the US market forces and even critics. > There are a few Brit names on Eric's list, but very few. > This is a complex business. I turned to British sf when I got bored -- > very bored -- with US sf, when even the most adventurous post-cyberpunk > piece seemed like it was secretly angling for a movie option. Post- > New Wave British sf seemed (not always of course) to be much more geared > to an intelligent, literate, _reading_ public, I suppose because a > British writer doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of being even > read in the US, let alone picked up for a Hollywood movie. My enjoyment > of even US sf, especially classic stuff that I was bored to tears with, > was increased when I saw the field through another perspective -- > I'm thinking of Christopher Priest, Keith Roberts, Gwyneth Jones, early > Bob Shaw, Charles Platt's porno-sf masterpiece _The Gas_; I'll add > Northern Irishman Ian MacDonald, the Scot-punks, and maybe even Aussie > Greg Egan, who is much more readily available in the UK than here. I > am not otherwise a fan of things British, but I think this is important. > Even Geoff Ryman, who is relatively available here, really found his voice > in England. There's also Iain M Banks, who is Scotland's finest; and a true Celt in Christopher Evans, whose AZTEC CENTURY is one of the best alternate-history novels of recent years. I could mention several others, many of whom are known to Us sf readers - or at least I would think so, but so many good writers from both sides of the Atlantic are slipping from consciousness. Thank you, Istvan, for your support! What I'm saying now is nothing new, but throwing a few possibilities which have been frequently noted about why UK sf is supposedly different. I do hear from some US fans that British SF is "downbeat", pessimistic, and - that dreaded term - "literary". I'm not altogether sure what any of these terms mean in the context of the discussion, because a downbeat fiction fiction doesn't necessarily mean a downbeat view of life anyway, and I can think of little more depressing that dewey-eyed optimistic dreams of going forth into the universe and zapping everything on six legs. And we may have JG Ballard but you Americans started it with William Burroughs! (One of the finest writers approaching the SF field though not necessarily part of it). Nicholas Ruddick has some interesting things to say about British SF - espacially Ballard - in ULTIMATE ISLAND (Greenwood Press). While its true that we have some fine writers - so does the USA and there are quite a number of US books which I wish were being published in the UK a lot quicker (or at all). Is it that the reading is better on the other side of the fence? Not necessarily; I think that many British writers tend to have that anarchistic touch which adds something to SF, and of course SF developed differently over here. The Wells tradition - of SF being something which was very much part of mainstream writing and not hived off into the specialist magazine market - hung on a lot longer, and is probably still more apparent over here. For example, Olaf Stapledon saw himself more influenced by Wells than the Pulps - apparently he never quite appreciated the pulp magazines or saw himself as part of a "science fiction" tradition. While CS Lewis wrote and appreciated "science fiction" it was very much from the perspective of an Oxbridge don with a background in a much wider area of imaginative literature. It's going at a tangent, perhaps, but some people have seen in Eric Frank Russell's wisecracking wit (Russell par excellence the British writer who wrote for the American market) the bolshie anti- authoritarian humour of the British ex-serviceman. Clarke loved the pulps (see his autobiograhical ASTOUNDING DAYS) but also saw Stapledon's LAST AND FIRST MEN as the novel which changed his life. The fact that Britain has this century gone from an Imperial power through two world wars to grudging membership of the European Union and a fairly minor role on the world stage is very much a cliche, but like all cliches there is some truth in this. You CAN, I think, look at Wyndham and see the loss of confidence of the British middle-class, redoubled in Ballard, and I won't even mention things like the New Wave and Michael Moorcock, who undoubtedly gave a lot of people in the late 60s the feeling that they could, and should, write with their OWN voices rather than an assumed Transatlantic style. It's possibly significant that jeff Noon, whom you rightly praise, comes from without the SF community but has been enthusiastically accepted within it. As you say in your report on VF 95, a lot of people in this country are living SF - seeing in their everyday lives what was written about as fantastic even so little as a decade ago. But this is, in a sense, a small renaissance. British SF writers have the same dwindling influence as Americans: people like Bob Shaw and John Brunner do not have sales to match their talent - I'm not even sure if Brunner has a current publisher - and the largest sales in the SF category are either fantasy-disguised-as-sf or Trek, etc. spin-offs. So why the genuine upsurge of new talent? It's partly, as I think I've said before, because the readership of SF in the UK may be small, but by and large it's pretty discerning. SF fandom in the UK is probably as riven with social inadequates and personal disagreements as fandom anywhere else, but there is a fairly large (in proportional terms) core of people who are extremely well-read in both SF and non-SF literature and who know what they are talking about. And - this is important - they are open to new influences. This is probably simply because British fandom is relatively small, but it is a genuine reason, I think. Plus there is a readership which you could describe as non-fannish which is made up of people who are similar in many ways to SF fans - who like the same music, share similar politics, have read pretty much the same (non-sf) books, are open to the new techologies, etc. etc. -and it's these people who are reading some of the books you mention. I was, for example, recently at an exhibition organised for librarians at which Iain Banks was speaking. Now Banks may be a special case, he's a writer who continually makes the best-seller lists here, but he makes no bones about the fact that he is an sf writer and his most recent book - the one he was promoting - was FEERSUM ENDJINN, a not particularly *easy* SF. And there were a lot of people there, and many of them had read the book and were familiar with the concepts of virtual reality, etc. which Banks was writing about. It seems to me that SF publishers have not *quite* got the hang of this market, which is NOT the traditional SF one, but it seems to me to be the one which is reading, and is spawning a lot of the better fiction that we're seeing today. I'd be interested in seeing if this impression is shared by my compatriots on the list! -- Andy Sawyer, Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK 0151-794-2733/2696 [log in to unmask] http://www.liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html "Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight) From eaj Fri Jun 30 10:33:43 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA26000; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 10:33:43 -0400 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 10:33:42 -0400 (EDT) From: "Eric A. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Literary SF & LC In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi. I would like to try to answer Alain Vaillancourt's question from a slightly different perspective than Colleen did. Colleen described what happens to most mass market paperbacks NOW--but not what happened to most mass market paperbacks THEN. Plus I would like to put a few different spins on this issue. Anyways ... The Copyright Paperback Collection was started by Lolita Silva, one of the Library's selection officers, in 1975. It was intended to complement the Dell Paperback Collection that LC had acquired slightly earlier. The Copyright Paperback Collection includes not just SF but all genre fiction--mysteries, westerns, romances, etc. It's other limitation is that it includes only those copyright paperbacks that publishers get around to making copyright deposits for. As I have been checking what SF we have and don't have, one simple truth has become clear: not all publishers make their copyright deposits and even those that do, don't always send in copies of all the books that they publish. As a result, the Copyright Paperback Collection is what I would call a "passive" collection. What came in, came in, and hopefully was added. What did not come in, no one cared about since there was no one actively worrying about it. Now that Colleen is around and now that the Library has adopted a Collections Policy Statement for F&SF (and is going to start working on statements for other genres), this passivity may start to change. In any case, my point is the collection is potentially very good (if we had access to the 70,0000 items in it) but far from perfect. The obvious question is: well, what happened to mass market paperbacks published before 1975 (especially since SF hardcovers were not exactly common pre-1975 and mass market paperbacks were the market standard)? Well, the short answer is that they're gone, lost, never acquired, etc. (unless of course they happened to be published by Dell). But being long-winded, I will also give you the long answer which will take me back to the 1920's and to a digressive riff about jazz. In the 1920's, when US record companies began producing jazz records in mass quantities, they asked the Library of Congress if we *really* wanted all this new popular music. The Library of Congress decided that we only collected real music (ie classical) so, thanks, but no thanks, there was no need to send us your jazz records. Of course, the Library has since realized the error of its ways, and is now scrambling to build its jazz collection via purchase when we could have gotten it all for free when it was published via the copyright deposit law. Which will brings me in a roundabout way to SF. The copyright deposit law applies not just to records (well, I guess those are obsolete tech these days) but to books as well. The law states that each publisher must send us two copies of his/her BEST edition. This best edition is usually interpreted as meaning the hardcover edition. Well along comes the SF mass market publishing boom and the Library looks at these pathetic little books with lurid covers on them and probably says several things to its collective self: 1) there has to be a better edition--so we will wait for the best edition; 2) it's impossible to do a good library binding on a mass market paperback (when the Library acquires something its goal is to add it to collections forever); 3) the quality of the paper is so bad that these books are going to self-descruct; and 4) who needs this SF drek anyways (forgetting the jazz lesson). So, the decision gets made that we will not collect mass market paperbacks. And it wasn't until 1975 when Lolita Silva of the Collections Policy Office (who had learned the jazz lesson) realized we should be keeping mass market paperbacks because many of them were actually mass market originals and we should have some record of popular fiction published in our era. Thus the Copyright Paperback Collection was born (please note that there are still people here at the Library who would like to see it made into an "uncollection" and disposed of--fortunately at the moment there are more fellow travellers than fifth collumnists. That plus the fact that the Collections Policy Statement for F&SF cites the Copyright Paperback Collection as one the legs we are standing on should help the collection survive.) Which still leaves the question unanswered as to what happened to SF published before 1975. Any SF mass market paperbacks published before 1960 are lost (ashes to ashes, pulp to pulp--fortunately we still have the Eaton Collection at UC Riverside and other such important depositories). As for SF published between 1960 and 1975, there may be a little glimmer of hope. All may not be lost. The copyright deposit law at some point required that the Library hold all deposits for 30 years. As a result, mass market paperbacks published in the 1960's and early 1970's (as long as the publishers took the trouble to deposit them) are in theory still out there somewhere in one of our warehouses. As the 30 year limit expires, Lolita Silva and others are trying to make sure that the mass market paperbacks in these boxes get pulled and added to the Copyright Paperback Collections before the rest of this material is "discarded". So there is some hope. However, even if at some point the Library will end up with a fairly good collection of mass market SF paperbacks, the vast majority of these books still have not been cataloged. If they are not cataloged, then there is no real access. So the books may be here but are effectively "missing" from the national publishing record (LC's catalog). I will hold off on a discussion on the economics & politics of cataloging until another message. Take care. EAJ *-------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Eric A. Johnson | *OPINIONS MINE* | | Senior Exchange Specialist (Baltics & CIS) | | | & Recommending Officer for Science Fiction | Voice: (202) 707-9498 | | Exchange & Gift Division (COLL/E&G/EES) | FAX: (202) 707-2086 | | Library of Congress, LM 632 | Email: [log in to unmask] | | Washington, DC 20540-4240 USA | | *-------------------------------------------------------------------------* "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Philip K. Dick, 1928-1982 From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 10:47:49 1995 Received: from knox.knox.edu by rs8.loc.gov (8.6.12/4.03) id KAA92045; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 10:47:47 -0400 Received: by knox.knox.edu (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA052903657; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 09:47:37 -0500 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 09:47:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Matt Bogen <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: New Vonnegut? Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII To whomever asked about the status of new Kurt Vonnegut works: There is nothing new from him expected in the coming six months or so. We'll all just have to keep waiting... Your friendly neighborhood bookseller- __________________________________________________________________ Matthew Bogen / "There are more things in heaven and Box K-301, Knox College \ earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of Galesburg IL 61401 USA / in your philosophy." [log in to unmask] \ From eaj Fri Jun 30 11:07:41 1995 Received: by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA38901; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 11:07:41 -0400 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 11:07:41 -0400 (EDT) From: "Eric A. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Literary SF & Real Literature In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Some one just posted a message asking whether C.S. Lewis was an "accidental ommission" from LC's list. Well, the answer is more like we ommitted him (and others like him) on purpose--but let explain why. C.S. Lewis and others like him have received enough attention from the mainstream that the SF Working Group here decided that he was "not our problem" as it were. Well, who is our problem? As we have been arguing definitions of SF and fantasy for quite a while, you might be interested in learning about the definition of fantasy and SF that we used in the Library's Collections Policy Statement. We used the Joseph Mayhew definition (LC's first SF Recommending Officer). That definition is this: SF is whatever is identified by the publisher as such by the use of markings on the spine, cover, or backcover of a book. Fantasy is whatever is indentified by the publisher as use by the use of markings on the spine, cover, or backcover of a book. We were later forced by the Library to come up with an additional definition that was supposed to be "better" than the Mayhew one (I won't post what we did come up with as a secondary definition as I'm sure everyone will disagree--the 8 of us here at LC just agreed to disagree). But basically, this Mayhew definition is what I go by because it is perfect for my needs (yes, and probably someone came up with this definition before Joe did but I'm just telling you where I swiped it from). The reason this definition is "perfect" for LC is that any book without the stigmata of "sf" "sci-fi" "science fiction" "science fantasy" "fantasy" etc. etched into its cover is going to be treated as "real" literature by the Library of Congress and probably fully cataloged, preserverd, and so on (ie it gets respect). Those books with the aforementioned stigmata get no respect (well, relatively little). As a result, the Collections Policy Statement for F&SF specifically targets these stigmatized books and explicitly ignores non-stigmatized SF by making a reference to the Collections Policy Statement for Literature (with a capital L) which covers those. Just to give you one example, most of us would agree that what Vonnegut writes is SF. But he has made very sure that his books are NOT marketed as SF so you will find no stigmata on his covers. As a result, his fiction will automatically be covered by the Literature CPS and it will be well taken care of. We are primarily concerned with what was falling through the fairly big SF crack. Incidentally, LC has been doing a fairly good job of acquiring foreign SF as foreign SF books rarely come equipped with the proper stigmata. As Istvan pointed out, there is a definite US bias in our author's list. One of the reason for this (besides our American provincialism) is that the Library's past selection policies have actually been biased against mass market US paperbacks. The same does not hold true for foreign paperbacks (which seldom carry stigmata or market tags) that will often go to the trouble to acquire and catalog. I just had an interesting exchange of messages with a francophone SF writer and by searching LC's databases I found that percentage-wise we have been doing a much better job of acquiring and cataloging her titles than say those of major US SF writers who published primarily in the 50's, 60's, and early 70's before their new books started coming out as harcovers. As I already pointed out, LC's official interest in SF began when I pointed out in 1990 that our collection was missing 50% of the titles written by Philip K. Dick (the PKD collection has since improved as Vintage has been reprinting PKD's mass market originals but my personal collection is still much better than the Library's). If I did a search on Resnik, Effinger, Silverberg, whomever, LC would probably not have cataloged about half of their books as well. I hope this will begin to change--which is the goal that I've set for myself. Anyways ... EAJ *-------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Eric A. Johnson | *OPINIONS MINE* | | Senior Exchange Specialist (Baltics & CIS) | | | & Recommending Officer for Science Fiction | Voice: (202) 707-9498 | | Exchange & Gift Division (COLL/E&G/EES) | FAX: (202) 707-2086 | | Library of Congress, LM 632 | Email: [log in to unmask] | | Washington, DC 20540-4240 USA | | *-------------------------------------------------------------------------* "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Philip K. Dick, 1928-1982 From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 11:15:49 1995 Received: from mailhost.pipex.net by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA31224; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 11:15:49 -0400 Received: from ns.cityscape.co.uk by pipe.pipex.net with SMTP (PP); Fri, 30 Jun 1995 16:15:43 +0100 Received: from cityscape.co.uk (ac141.du.pipex.com [193.130.242.141]) by ns.cityscape.co.uk (8.6.4/8.6.4) with SMTP id QAA16680 for <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 16:12:41 +0100 To: [log in to unmask] From: [log in to unmask] (Chris Terran) Subject: SF bloopers Reply-To: [log in to unmask] References: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950630002907.22490H-100000@bigcat> In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950630002907.22490H-100000@bigcat> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 15:52:48 +0100 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Organization: BSFA X-Mailer: Archimedes TTFN Version 0.36 Speaking of the hard-to-get (I've been trying for years) blooper book _Ghastly Beyond Belief_ (the other author/compiler was Kim Newman), there's currently another one in preparation by Dave Langford and John Grant, provisionally entitled _Thog's Masterclass_. Which title should be in heavy doom-laden Gothic type. See Grant's piece in the July issue of the new UK sf zine _SFX_ for details; he uses this to launch a well-aimed rant at copy-editors. Best Chris -- Chris Terran ******************************************* Email: [log in to unmask] * Editor, 'Matrix' - The news magazine of * Voice: 0113 278 2388 * The British Science Fiction Association * Opinions mine ... mine, all mine! ******************************************* From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 12:37:12 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA49575; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 12:37:12 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA054440041; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 12:34:01 -0400 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 12:34:01 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Vonnegut >I have read two novels of his, _The Sirens of Titan_ and _Cat's Cradle_, >and have a question for someone who has read him more widely. My own experience of Vonnegut is Dead Eye Dick and Slapstick. If not for the cover, I might not have reailzied they were by the same author. He has a very odd style that, IMO, is sometimes hilarious and sometimes disturbing. I react similarly to Joh Irvings work. His very direct pacing in his stories seems to me to be his style, his individual voice, and not simply a rush to collect a royalty check. Just my take, take it as you will. From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 14:06:23 1995 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA32644; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 14:06:23 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA260615391; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 14:03:11 -0400 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 14:03:11 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Literary SF & LC I went through my reading list for the last 5 1/2 years and extracted the SF stuff. I found about 20 authors not on your list, but only 2 of them seemed to be obvious candidates for inclusion on your list. I'm wondering if they are not perhaps dealt with in some other LOC collection: - Douglas Adams (if for his general influence if not his writing per se) - Olaf Stapeldon (seems a very obvious choice - perhaps like Verne & Wells (?) he's included in general literature?) Thanks, Ed Fitzgerald From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 14:33:00 1995 Received: from raven.benedictine.edu by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA70456; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 14:33:00 -0400 Received: from gnicholas.benedictine.edu by raven.benedictine.edu with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA16245; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 13:37:47 -0500 Message-Id: <v01510101ac19d33fcfb1@[198.248.38.28]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 13:35:13 -0500 To: [log in to unmask] From: [log in to unmask] (George Nicholas) Subject: nothing new under the sun >Ecclesiastes did indeed say "There is nothing new under the sun." Also, >the US Patent office was closed for a year, circa 1868, because there >was nothing left to invent. I suspect neither ever heard of the transistor, >the silicon chip, or >Glad-Wrap. The difference being, of course, that the patent office closing was a peculiar act of foolishness, while Ecclesiastes is magnificent poetry on the weariness of the human heart--a condition to which we are all susceptible. In regard to that declension of the spirit, there is indeed "no new thing under the sun." Zelazny made good SF from the idea in "A Rose for Ecclesiastes," but of course nothing touches the original except Dante and Shakespeare in their most somber moods. Like the other posters on this thread, I laugh at the patent office, but I also respect the old Hebrew poet's description of the human condition. He knew his stuff. From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 14:49:47 1995 Received: from gate.bmgmusic.com by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA80621; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 14:49:47 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Received: from in1vines.bmgmusic.com by gate.bmgmusic.com with SMTP id AA15119 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for <[log in to unmask]>); Fri, 30 Jun 1995 13:49:44 -0500 Received: by IN1VINES.bmgmusic.com; Fri, 30 Jun 95 14:57:07 EDT Date: Fri, 30 Jun 95 14:40:05 EDT Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: re: Sharecropping/death of Timescape Mike> Thanks for clearing up my (somewhat murky, since I wasn't in the field at the time) explanation of the end of Timescape. I did know that it died a somewhat protracted death, as the corporate parent refused to reprint successful books (or put out much promotion, I believe), and I'd been told (listening aghast) of the Scott Meredith connection before, but had just forgotten it. My basic point was just that, for a corporate giant that doesn't much care about books in the first place, a sharecropped property is personally comforting (it's familliar and homogenous) and usually contributes to a stronger bottom line. That is, as long as the pre-teens alluded to by the librarians on the list keep reading them. I'd be interested to know your thoughts about sharecropping a literary (rather than a media) property, specifically these new FOUNDATION books that are supposed to be coming up. I feel a bit uneasy about them myself, especially as I'm not sure the authors would necessarily be the ones Isaac would have chosen to write in his world, much as I admire their own writings. Isaac did start those "Robot City" things, and allowed the Roger Allen robot novels, so he had no strong adversion to letting other people poach on his worlds, but somehow I feel that the Foundation is different. Would it make a difference to you as a writer, especially since I know you've done short stories in other people's worlds in the past? Just asking, but feel free to ignore me, since this thread is becoming increasingly long and tenuously related to the "literary-ness" of the works in question. Andy Wheeler From [log in to unmask] Fri Jun 30 15:39:05 1995 Received: from mail.swip.net by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA49259; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 15:39:05 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Received: by mail.swip.net with UUCP (8.6.8/3.01) id VAA15671; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 21:44:09 +0200 Received: from lkp by lkp.ifsab.se (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13764; Fri, 30 Jun 95 21:13:27 +0200 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 95 21:13:27 +0200 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Apparently-To: <[log in to unmask]> ---- Transcript of session follows ---- %MAIL-E-SENDERR, error sending to user HAPE-MAIL-E-OPENOUT, error opening !AS as output-RMS-E-CRE, ACP file create failed-SYSTEM-W-DIRALLOC, allocation failure on directory file ---- Recipients of this delivery ---- [log in to unmask] (bounced) ---- Unsent message follows ---- Received: by lkp (UCX V2.0) Fri, 30 Jun 1995 21:10:09 +0200 Received: from loc.gov by lkp.ifsab.se (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13740; Fri, 30 Jun 95 21:12:41 +0200 Errors-To: [log in to unmask] Received: from rs8.loc.gov by mail.swip.net (8.6.8/3.01) id UAA22593; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 20:53:11 +0200 Received: from localhost by rs8.loc.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA25890; Fri, 30 Jun 1995 14:42:22 -0400 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 14:42:22 -0400 Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]> Errors-To: [log in to unmask] Reply-To: [log in to unmask] Originator: [log in to unmask] Sender: [log in to unmask] Precedence: bulk From: [log in to unmask] (Chris Terran) To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]> Subject: SF bloopers X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Science Fiction and Fantasy Listserv Speaking of the hard-to-get (I've been trying for years) blooper book _Ghastly Beyond Belief_ (the other author/compiler was Kim Newman), there's currently another one in preparation by Dave Langford and John Grant, provisionally entitled _Thog's Masterclass_. Which title should be in heavy doom-laden Gothic type. See Grant's piece in the July issue of the new UK sf zine _SFX_ for details; he uses this to launch a well-aimed rant at copy-editors. Best Chris -- Chris Terran ******************************************* Email: [log in to unmask] * Editor, 'Matrix' - The news magazine of * Voice: 0113 278 2388 * The British Science Fiction Association * Opinions mine ... mine, all mine! *******************************************